Thursday, February 17, 2011

Taking victim-blaming to new lows: The Spearhead on Lara Logan

Lara Logan, shortly before the attack
There has been an astounding amount of vile shit posted on the internet about the reported sexual assault and beating of CBS reporter Lara Logan in Cairo's Tahir Square. I spent a depressing hour or so the other night looking through hundreds of comments on the Yahoo news message boards; it was a virtual festival of misogyny, racism, victim-blaming and simple nastiness. A sample (each quote is from a different comment):

don't put some nice white pu55y near crazy @#$% arabs. it's like goddamn king kong

Kinda' like sending a woman reporter into a locker room? Don't ask me to feel any kind of remorse for her. Equal rights demands equal responsibility

it started as a revolution and turned in a black spring break! mwaa ha ha

She loved every minute of it.

I could multiply examples ad infinitum; the last I checked there were more than 1500 comments on the one Yahoo news story I looked at, and most were of this sort. The only slightly encouraging sign? Most of these vile comments have more downvotes from readers than upvotes.

You expect this kind of behavior from the Yahoo message board crowd, which has never been very big on civility, or even basic human decency. Typical anonymous internet assholery.

Leave it to the readers of The Spearhead, though, to take commentary on this sad case to an even lower low. Yesterday, Spearhead head honcho W.F. Price published his own, predictably victim-blaming, take on the subject -- essentially blaming feminists for encouraging women to report the news in the same dangerous places that male reporters go. (When Anderson Cooper was attacked, you didn't hear anyone suggesting that men shouldn't be covering the events in Cairo.)

I think that's a supremely tasteless way to use this tragedy to push an antifeminist agenda. But the comments to his article, roughly 270 of them at last count, are far worse -- rarely bothering with even a pro-forma expression of basic human sympathy, some blaming and even mocking the victim, and most using the case to crudely push an assortment of their own misogynist agendas.  Here are some of the worst; I present them without comment, as they pretty much speak for themselves. I have edited some for space reasons; you can follow the links to read them in their entirety.

Alucin explained about how rape allegedly benefits its victims:

When I studied in university a woman claimed to have been gang-raped. After telling the story, she acquired a certain authority. She was at the top of the feminist hierarchy .... Her word was gold because of her rape.

It was never even verified if she had in fact been raped.

It’s a harsh thing to say, but the woman at university gained immensely from the rape, or her rape story-telling, with this increased stature. She probably wouldn’t have gotten into that very small degree program without the rape story to tell to the admissions committee.

At school, no one, especially a man, could ever challenge her about any subject, however remotely related to rape. ...

Rape against men or women is a tragedy, but I also find it sickening how “survivors” or their “friends and supporters” often use their status for personal gain. ... It’s the same thing when feminists politicize breast cancer. 

Opus added:

I agree with Alcuin: In my experience women wear RAPE like a badge of honour or military medal (as I presume Ms Logan will now do). I, of course, never believe word of it, and I notice most guys these days are equally sceptical. There may be an increasing Rape epidemic but no one I know is a Rapist. Funny.

Confused declared that he didn't give a shit:

No group on earth is more privileged that American/western women.
I won’t waste my time any more worrying about their safety, or lack thereof, due to their choices.

intp took it a step further:

Don’t believe her. Don’t care. I hope the Arab guys didn’t catch anything from her.

That is what the non-stop lie called feminism has done to me. Vive la nihilism.

Rebel offered this highly original take on rape:

I don’t see the point here..

According to feminist orthodoxy, humpteen gazillion women are raped every day. This one is the humpteen gazillionth plus one for that day.

Women are raped if you have sex with them, women are raped if you don’t have sex with them, women are raped even if there are no men around. ...

Every time two animals are copulating, a woman feels raped. There are more rapes on earth than there are hydrogen molecules in the universe.

To women of today, rape seems to be the highest achievement, the Royal Road to Success.

I’m laughing so much I might get a hernia, my belly is aching from the laughter.

Papa Smurf suggested the reported rape was a great career move, and ended his comment with a smiley:

she’ll be a CBS news anchor in no time. great way to get promoted.

I dont know if she genuinely didnt want what just happend or maybe feminism has affectivly blinded her and rendered her stupid. Blonde western women in the arab world are like all you can eat restraunts to fat people. Just help yourselves ;)

Troll King posted a long rambling diatribe against "western women" in the Middle East, of which these remarks are only a small portion:

*yawn*

Typical feminist/western woman(as if there is a difference) acts like her typical bitchy self in a place that won’t tolerate it. ....

The fact is that women, western cunts, think they can go into a culture and act how they want and treat the poorest of the poor not just like “help” or a but like a slave that should be lashed for simply flirting. I bet these rapists look who do this probably thought she would act towards them the same way white women act towards brown and black men on western tv. Like he was a stud....

But, umm, like yeah dude. That is so hurrible I might go and cry a river.

The Contrarian Expatriate took victim-blaming to a new low:

Sounds like she got what she set herself up for. You can yell, “I am woman, hear me roar!” all you want in the Anglosphere, but step into the 3rd world behaving that way and they will pound you (no pun intended) back into your place.

Again, as is generally the case with the comments from The Spearhead that I quote here on my blog, these are not weird outliers in the discussion there. Unlike the comments from Yahoo I quoted above, all of the comments I quoted from The Spearhead got multiple upvotes from readers there, in most cases several dozen; none had more than a handful of downvotes. Alucin's comment about the benefits of rape -- a comment surprisingly similar in spirit to an infamous quote on false rape accusations from Catherine Comins, an assistant dean at Vassar, that still raises hackles from antifeminists two decades after it was uttered to a Time magazine writer --  got more than 80 upvotes. There is more than a little irony here.

--

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220 comments:

  1. ONCE AGAIN here's misandry from MEN- teaching me, "oh well men will be rapists, you shouldn't go there".

    Thanks spearhead for confirming for me what world wide study of rape already shows, MEN RAPE and need culture to reign them in, or they WON'T. They will violate people in the most base way. Where were all the women rapists at this gathering? No, spearhead, you are right, not ALL men rape, but gee culture and public events and political unrest sure have a lot to do with it. That's SO INTERESTING.

    Democracy now covered a gender aspect of the protests, and a woman said that women were right along with the men doing everything, even sleeping outside. I kept a clip of that if anyone would like to see it. But here, the grim reality creeps in. Even in that same DN report one of the female reporters reported afterward not being safe, and Amy Goodman was frantically warning her friend to stay safe.

    I say this because this story really really disturbs me. I'm not racist, and I don't have a middle East phobia or Muslim, Islamaphobia at all. I do, however realize what's plain to see and that is that women over there are treated exactly the way MRAs see them, in spades.

    The men on the Spearhead believe the same way the Taliban does. In some of David's tags he puts, "men who should not be around women, ever" and that's not an exaggeration.

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  2. Sometimes people on the internet make me feel physically sick. Most of these people are MRAs.

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  3. I love how troll king goes right from faux anti-imperialism into a racist screed about white women having too much sex with black dudes.

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  4. Okay, I give up. MRA/MGTOW guys, what the hell are you all so angry about? I am completely stumped. I've now seen posts from you guys celebrating women (not particular women, just Women in general) getting raped, getting murdered, getting beaten up, getting cancer, and passing out drunk in alleys.

    And I have no idea why. Seriously. No damn idea.

    In the "Evil Feminist Quotes" thread, David mentioned that one of the quotes was actually a line of dialogue from a fictional character in a novel, which the author wrote in part to work through her grief after her daughter was raped and then treated like shit by the legal system when she tried to seek justice. One of the regular commentators from the misogyny boards immediately responded with outrage that David could have sympathy for the writer's pain and not the equal pain he and his fellow MGTOWs had suffered.

    What pain?

    As far as I can tell from your endless whines, the horrible, unbearable, unjust suffering inflicted on MGTOWs boils down to:

    1. I don't get as many dates from girls as I'd like.

    2. When I do go on dates, I feel pressure to pick up the check.

    3. Women often have things to do other than wait on me hand and foot.

    This, according to you guys, is at least as painful as helping your child recover from rape.

    That's just dumb. You have nothing to be angry about. Quit being angry. Go live and love and stop obsessing over what the world owes you. Life's too short, you know?

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  5. @ Shaenon

    You're an idiot. If you honestly want to know what MRA's are upset about (which you don't) you start with the courts and the laws. The unfair divorce laws would be a start.

    The fact that you don't know even this suggests you should never speak on what MRA'S are upset about.

    Random Brother

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  6. Richard, I think divorce laws, the draft, sexual abuse of men, and all that stuff is not going to change much by cheering on the mistreatment of women. Despite how you guys valorize folks like Sodini and Lepine, and despite how you guys (as demonstrated above) cheer on incidents of rape like this, these incidents are not making your life any easier. Indeed, in many ways, they set your cause back. Every guy like Sodini or mob like the one in Egypt means another excuse to call men violent and be more suspicious of them and all that. The worse things get for women, the harder your enemies, if you view them as such, are going to drive the boot into your back. Laughing about some newslady getting raped is not going to make the courts change unfair divorce laws, nor will it convince them that most men aren't rapists.

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  7. richard, YOU are an idiot. denounce this sexism and this line of reasoning that women should not be working and men are obviously going to rape women in this circumstance.

    This has NADA to do with your persecution complex. If you are not sickened by rape and sickened by these comments and able to play this personal persecution game again to deflect responsibility, you are an idiot. You need to stop with your name calling or you are fair game. Any man that talks the way you just have in the face of a gang rape and the justification of that and vilification of the REAL victim, you are a nut job, and frankly I think the FBI needs to watch you. FBI doesn't need to watch Dworkin. You on the other hand, need a file.

    Now if you don't want me talking to you like that, then stop calling people idiots.

    Denounce this shit Richard, stop with your nonsense persecution complex, it's going to be self fulfilling prophecy.

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  8. I don't believe RIchard reads Davids actual posts. I believe he simply goes right into the threads and posts the same crap over and over again.

    How about this Richard (and his buddies in hate) comment on the actual post. I'd love to for once to hear your thoughts on the those comments from the spearhead.

    My own comment. Over and over again I have heard that men protect women (from whom I wonder), that rape is rare, that women do not need to fear rape. Here is a perfect example of the mra's saying exactly the opposite: what can a woman expect in a middle eastern country.

    She was a reporter doing a job with major risks involved. Ahmed Mohammed Mahmoud, another reporter died during the uprising, did he deserve to be killed because he put himself in that position?

    (cue the mra's saying that we're not hearing about him)

    I have, probably because I don't get my news from Fox news.

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  9. I would personally LOVE if the MRAs that post here would actually post about the content David writes. They never do. Sometimes I think they just read the headline and post the most vague thing they can think of.

    MRAs that go here: what is your reaction to this? The comments these people on popular MRA sites are posting. Do you agree with them? Do you deplore them?

    Because as much as you say it's the feminists who are "man haters" (yet you never offer any substantial proof. You either post things some feminists said 30 years ago, or you go off into a vague rant about divorce laws) isn't it fair and objective to say that most MRA websites and the users who browse them are lady hating?

    I want you to read the comments David has posted here and then say with a straight face that this is not flat out misogyny. You cannot say you love or respect women if you cheer rapes.

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  10. "No group on earth is more privileged that American/western women.
    I won’t waste my time any more worrying about their safety, or lack thereof, due to their choices."---Confused

    What Confused is expressing is a culture that is inherently misandrist. That's what decades of telling men they are second class citizens (or even worse) happens---some just stop caring when others . . . yes, even women, get hurt or assualted.

    I honestly don't know why you people can't come to grips with that, but alas . . .

    My take, as far as *real* rape is concerned, is that neither men or women deserve to be sexually and violently attacked like that against their will.

    I also acknowledge there is a certain amount of bravery in what certain reporters do. However . . .

    I'll give an example here. I've practiced a few set marital arts over the years and even instructors have acknowledged I'm a pretty good fighter. If I routinely go into shady areas in a neighborhood, it doesn't mean I deserved to get assualted even if I know how to defend myself. However, it would be wise to avoid those dark alleys or hot spots when possible.

    Logan is an attractive, white, Western woman. She shouldn't have to worry about violence nor does she deserve it, but in the context of Cairo, she's in the center of the maelstrom and she sticks out like a sore thumb. You may be outraged as much as you want, but if any of you are surprised by what happened, well, you shouldn't.

    I wonder if a male journalist actually killed in the situation would garner the same coverage.

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  11. "That's just dumb. You have nothing to be angry about. Quit being angry. Go live and love and stop obsessing over what the world owes you. Life's too short, you know?"---Shaenon

    Just like Ahmed Mohammed Mahmoud's life was "shortened?"

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  12. wytch

    Given that Ahmed Mohammed Mahmoud was killed does it not ring true that male reporters should not be in hot spots as well? (Chances of you knowing about him if I hadn't spoken of him are nill as he is not an American)

    I've read the entire thread and your comments, both seem to say that she should have known better then to be there in the first place, hence she deserved what she got.

    I have a different take on this. Reporters whether male or female take on inherit risks when they go into war zones. They choose their jobs and the risks it entails. The problem with the posts on the spearhead is the celebration of her sexual assault (she asked for it, even she enjoyed it). Please link to a feminist site (any site?), which states that Mahmoud set himself up to be killed.


    From the spearhead:
    “Sounds like she got what she set herself up for. You can yell, “I am woman, hear me roar!” all you want in the Anglosphere, but step into the 3rd world behaving that way and they will pound you (no pun intended) back into your place”

    Is that an o.k statement in your eyes?

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  13. Those comments are repugnant.

    I hope Ms. Logan finds some peace and healing in the days ahead.

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  14. wytch

    You don't have a rebuttal? You have chosen to post on a blog that does not give you a thumbs up for dismissing a statement that you are uncomfortable answering. You have chosen to do so, no one forced you into it did they?

    Can you try again without using a tired old juvenile response? Just to help you the word troll as I know it is someone who goes onto a public forum on the internet with opposing views from the original stance of the blog or forum just to comment the opposite.

    This blog is anti mra.. just to help you out with that.

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  15. :::When Anderson Cooper was attacked, you didn't hear anyone suggesting that men shouldn't be covering the events in Cairo.:::

    Thank you David.

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  16. wytch says:

    "What Confused is expressing is a culture that is inherently misandrist. That's what decades of telling men they are second class citizens (or even worse) happens---some just stop caring when others . . . yes, even women, get hurt or assualted."


    Why is it the vast majority of men do not feel they are second class citizens? I'm not a second class citizen, and I do not know any men in the real world except for my brother (who clearly does not live in the real world) that feel they are.

    Your point is all about FEELINGS> a small fringe groups feelings. Quite funny when mra's comment all the time about women being too emotional. Perhaps YOU are too emotional?

    Just something to think about... before you go back to your juvenile statements. Have you ever heard of the word creditability?

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  17. Hahaha, Wytch is so lost in crazy land that reasonable statements look like troll statements.

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  18. these incidents are not making your life any easier.

    Of course, because after a woman gets raped my first thought is, "Oh dear, I feel so bad for the men's rights movement. This isn't going to make their lives any easier."

    As a side note, vagrant, your "voice of moderation" slash "devil's advocate" shtick isn't fooling anyone. That kind of troll behavior is as old as the internet.

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  19. Wytch-based on the posts here and some of the posts in the MRA sites, your "proof" of men being second class citizens is this:
    Divorce laws appear to favor women.
    Child custody disputes appear to favor women.
    Men have to sometimes pay for dinners on dates.
    A few men are in charge of things that do not focus laser like on male rights/issues.
    It is hard to effect change as a male organizer for things like abuse shelters.
    Men are mocked on TV.

    That is it.

    How on earth is that second class citizenship?

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  20. Triplanatary, I know this is hard to believe but there are people who think differently than you and are going to see facts and the world from a different lens. You may think it's the wrong lens and there is nothing wrong with judging other people's lenses. We don't want to turn into a "there is no truth" navel gazing party.

    But that does not make all these people trolls. Vagrantsvoice's lens may seem tinted and bent to you, but there is nothing in his discussion to suggest he is a troll. Accusing such people of trolldom does nothing to further discussion.

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  21. I don't need a lecture about different points of view. I just suffered through a whole 200-comment thread filled with his trolling. JAQing off is extremely typical misogynist troll behavior. I'm not going to give it a pass.

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  22. Trip.

    Vagrant isn't the bad mra guy. Please don't act like them.

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  23. Trip, dismissing a respectful critique as a "lecture" does not help either.

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  24. Could moderates actually have a voice on the internet?
    Gosh I hope so.

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  25. Richard takes a thread about Spearhead's revolting attitudes towards rape and makes it all about his hobby horse, the divorce courts. Excellent way to make it all about yourself, Richard.

    And you wonder why some folks have trouble seeing MRAs as having any common decency.

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  26. @ thevagrantsvoice:

    thevagrantsvoice said: "Richard, I think divorce laws, the draft, sexual abuse of men, and all that stuff is not going to change much by cheering on the mistreatment of women."

    True, but the absence of cheering, men being docile and apologetic has led, in part, to these anti male laws being passeed. If tomorrow all MRA'S took vows of silence and not one said anything negative about women or feminists, feminists would still dream up some way to slander men. If they can make up the whole patriarchy myth, they can come up with some other bullshit.

    thevagrantsvoice said: "Despite how you guys valorize folks like Sodini and Lepine, and despite how you guys (as demonstrated above) cheer on incidents of rape like this, these incidents are not making your life any easier."

    Two things. One, I don't recall praising in any way the violence that occurred to this woman. If I did please point it out and I'll concede my error. Two, when men praise the Sodini's of the world, instead of outrage by women it should be viewed for what it is. Men feeling desperate. It should be a huge red flag and instead of continually fucking with men, these women should take a look at what the laws and culture they helped make has produced.

    thevagrantsvoice said: "Indeed, in many ways, they set your cause back. Every guy like Sodini or mob like the one in Egypt means another excuse to call men violent and be more suspicious of them and all that. The worse things get for women, the harder your enemies, if you view them as such, are going to drive the boot into your back. Laughing about some newslady getting raped is not going to make the courts change unfair divorce laws, nor will it convince them that most men aren't rapists."

    True, but being docile little boys won't get us anything but patronized. I don't want to be a little "yip" "yip" dog like Captain Bathrobe and David. Things will change. They have to. The U.S. is broke and sooner or later feminut nation is going to have a hard time dealing with the hordes of angry and bitter men they screwed and all the spiel about empowerment, and girl power and patriarchy is going to mean exactly what it meant to Lara Logan when she dealt with that mob. Meaning not a damn thing.

    Random Brother

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  27. Yip Yip...

    Richard is a small dog from his own accounts.

    Not going to try and refute me are you Richy?

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  28. I cannot believe how unmoored from reality some of the commenters both here and on the Spearhead are.

    What, because you can't get a date with a supermodel and you don't agree with divorce laws, that excuses you from basic human decency and compassion? Your suffering (outrage at goddamn divorce laws) is greater and of more value than a woman who got gang raped? You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. And yeah, that's shaming language - because there's some shit that people should be ashamed of, and insisting that men are forever and always the greater victims, especially when juxtaposed with this tragedy, is one of those things.

    I can't even begin to imagine what Ms. Logan is going through. First the assault, and now she's taken apart in the media and on the Internet. What the fuck is wrong with you people? She's an actual, suffering human being - not some kind of symbol of woman, not a cipher, not some stand-in for the girl who wouldn't go to prom with you in the 12th grade. An actual person. And how you're treating her, and her story, says more about YOU than it will ever say about her.

    Here's a question for Richard, Wytch, or any other MRA who cares to answer:

    I think we can universally agree that rape is a terrible crime which no innocent person should ever have to suffer. Apparently, what happened to Ms. Logan is somehow unworthy of your compassion. In fact, every time there's a news story about a woman being raped, there seems to be an absolute lack of compassion for her in some circles.

    So here's my question: Please tell me exactly what kind of rape you *would* feel shocked at. What has to happen before you find yourself able to feel some basic human empathy and compassion?

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  29. @ booboonation:

    booboonation said: "richard, YOU are an idiot. denounce this sexism and this line of reasoning that women should not be working and men are obviously going to rape women in this circumstance."

    I don't know who you're agruing with but I don't remember agreeing with the line of reasoning you've given.

    booboonation said: "This has NADA to do with your persecution complex."

    Persecution complex. Persecution complex. Tell, me, dear, which group is it that claims that men from the beginning of time all joined a secret cabal in order to keep the superior womenfolk down? Who is that, dear? Oh, yeah, it's feminists. So if you want to talk about a persecution complex, maybe ya'll should lose yours first.

    booboonation: "If you are not sickened by rape and sickened by these comments and able to play this personal persecution game again to deflect responsibility, you are an idiot."

    I'm sickened by things that hurt me. Got it? Don't demand that I care about things that affect feminists while they don't give 2 shits about things that harm me. That will not happen. As for name callling. I'm an MRA so I expect to be called names.

    booboonation: "You need to stop with your name calling or you are fair game. Any man that talks the way you just have in the face of a gang rape and the justification of that and vilification of the REAL victim, you are a nut job, and frankly I think the FBI needs to watch you. FBI doesn't need to watch Dworkin. You on the other hand, need a file."

    Well Dworkin's dead (YEAAHHHHH!!!!!) so she doesn't need a file.

    booboonation: "Now if you don't want me talking to you like that, then stop calling people idiots."

    But they are idiots. And what the person I originally called an idiot said was so far out there she deserved it.

    booboonation: "Denounce this shit Richard, stop with your nonsense persecution complex, it's going to be self fulfilling prophecy."

    Maybe if feminists weren't so self centered they could see the harm they cause instead of calling legitimate complaints persecution complexes.

    Random Brother

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  30. @percyprune

    I responded to someone's post that was clearly wrong. I know feminuts don't care about truth, but some people do.

    Random Brother

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  31. @ Kave:

    Kave said: "Yip Yip...

    Richard is a small dog from his own accounts.

    Not going to try and refute me are you Richy?"

    Really, I said that. Sigh. Another pussy begging wimp boy trying to crawl in that oversized handbag with Captain Bathrobe, and David.

    I would tell you get some pride, but you're a male feminist. We know that's not going to happen.

    Random Brother

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  32. @ Lady Victoria

    I'd feel shocked and full of compassion about the rape, abuse or smearing of a child.

    This is something that is clearly beyond feminsts as seen by a fairly recent PSA and feminsist reaction to it.

    If you don't give a shit about men. Eventually men won't give a shit about you.
    Learn it.

    Random Brother

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  33. Richard, if you convince yourself others don't give a shit about you then you can justify not giving a shit about them, or even hating them. I see it's working well for you. But it won't stop us from giving a shit about men.

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  34. @ Richard

    And you call feminists hateful....

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  35. Richard

    Are you ever going to address Davis original post?

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  36. @ Lady Victoria

    Feminists are hateful.

    This is what's called blowback. In other words you have been trying to fuck over men for the last 60 years to say the least so yeah, I don't feel much sympathy for you feminuts, you've got none for me. Hell in this very thread men have basically been told if your level of pain doesn't equal being raped STFU. Well no, dear, just no.

    Random Brother

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  37. Richard.

    You know nothing about they way the world really works. You live your life online being angry at everything, occasionally commenting on how superior you are because you are a man, not because you yourself have accomplished anything of even minor note.

    Live doesn’t work that way. Life is kicking you in the ass today because you have decided to be the poor victim who cannot do anything for yourself. Get out of your chair and do something today son… instead of yesterdays whine fest.

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  38. Richard

    It sucks being a lost soul doesn't it?

    I feel nothing but pity for you. I honestly feel the only way to respond to you from now on is just to express that pity.

    OR.. you have a very low IQ. I could also feel pity for you for that. Lead poisoning maybe?

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  39. @ Sandy

    You wonderful women have truly given a shit about us men as you've crafted laws that put men into prison for the evil crime of not making enough money to pay alimony and or child support. A modern day debtors prison, but you care. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

    Even better as men lost their jobs with the recession, NOW went and convinced our president to give money to create more jobs for women instead of helping those out of work men back into employment. Thanks! It's great to have all these strong, proud, independant womyn who give a shit about us, lovely.

    And when you and Valenti get your way and take away the presumption of innocence from men in rape cases, I'm sure you'll still give a shit about all the men who can't afford proper legal counseling and can't prove where they were 10 - 15 years prior, and are thus imprisoned to be beaten and raped, and their lives destroyed, feminist caring FTW! All this and you'll still give a shit about men! Awesome! Fucking awesome! Thanks, you feminists rock! Thanks. Thanks a lot.

    Random Brother

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  40. RIchard

    You do not live in the same world the rest of the world does, in fact if I didn't know you were not my brother I would think you were my brother.

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  41. @ Kave

    Dude,

    You admitted you spend your free time watching naked men beat off while getting milk poured on them. Your respect of my IQ or whatever means nothing to me.

    Random Brother

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  42. "You admitted you spend your free time watching naked men beat off while getting milk poured on them. Your respect of my IQ or whatever means nothing to me."---Richard

    And the funny thing is that he views it as "performance art," lol.

    Look at the time he's spent on this blog---he's trolling, attention whoring, and it's creepy how he's targeting anyone that even mildly disagrees with the themes here. From 7:10 a.m to 2:03 p.m.

    The idea that Kave is waiting for hours behind his screen like that is rather unnerving. I would suggest someone like that get another hobby, but it only makes them more fixated. Maybe obsessed.


    I won't feed the sick troll anymore, Richard. Promise.

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  43. Richard, yes, women do give a shit about men. I know that in your narrow, prejudiced world view this is not true. But I care about issues that effect men. I even do something about it.

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  44. (Also I do not want to take away the presumption of innocence. That, like a lot of things, is in your head.)

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  45. @richard

    The mind boggles.

    A PSA that suggests that injudicious social conditioning could result in men becoming rapists is more shocking than the actual attack and brutal rape of a woman?

    The idea of expressing empathy and compassion for a member of the female gender, no matter how heinously treated is beyond you.

    Truly, the mind boggles.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Richard, you appear to lack any common decency. You fail to demonstrate even basic empathy for someone who has been sexually assaulted. Instead, you have threadjacked this post to make it all about you.

    You're a pitiable figure who has lost his moral compass. Shame on you.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Well Richard and wytch.. When you obtain tickets to a performace art series and then sit in the audience sometimes you are surprised by the performance art. Sometimes it's very strange sometimes it's disturbing, and sometimes it's beautiful. Point is one of us has attended such theater performances and the other has not., hence you should not be commenting as experts regarding the vagina monologues or even somewhat knowledgeable on the topic.

    Ie: Dworkin did speak the quote you attributed to her.

    And yes I have been here all day. Wife and I are leaving for Nicaragua as of Saturday for a few weeks. I'm happy to say I took the day off and spent the day packing and making fun of mra's. Almost a mini vacation before the vacation. Thanks guys.

    ReplyDelete
  48. wytch

    I have nothing to do till tomorrow at noon. Dogs have been sent to the farm, I've visited and or talked to all the relatives I need too, my key man has taken over operations. I can just sit back and make fun of you all night if I wish.

    ReplyDelete
  49. wytchfinde555

    It's no surprise that many feminist men are probably the creepiest men of all. Many may use feminism to get closer to women with the "I'll protect you" stance. Such like a creepy old man telling a girl that he will drive her safely home. Then we have the ones who like to watch naked men whack off while getting milk poured on them.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Many may use feminism to get closer to women with the "I'll protect you" stance.

    Okay, that made me laugh.

    Thank you.

    And...er... what's wrong with watching men whack off while having milk poured on them? It's a little weird, but transubstantiation is waaaay creepier.

    ReplyDelete
  51. If it was a woman masturbating while having milk poured on her on stage, it would be female oppression, objectification and degradation of women. But when it's a male, well there is a double standard

    ReplyDelete
  52. Oddly enough, my "trolling" on the 200+ comment thread he mentioned (it's the one with the santa picture) resulted in the feminists coming up with several well-researched and cogent responses (none of which came from him, admittedly) and even Wytch, the MRA, acknowledging at least one of the points they made. I may have been a bit harsher than usual, and for that I do apologize; recent events in my own life have made me a good deal more sympathetic to the MRAs than I was before. If Tri considers that "trolling," though, I consider it quite a bit more likely that Tri is simply a fool. In any case, however, this is Mr. Futrelle's blog--if he feels I've been trolling or disruptive for whatever reason, he can simply ban me at his leisure. The fact that he hasn't, however, would seem to indicate that perhaps the issue is all on Tri's side.

    Anyways, on to Richard's points:

    True, but the absence of cheering, men being docile and apologetic has led, in part, to these anti male laws being passeed.

    That may be so, but this is something of a false dichotomy--you don't have to be docile, quiet lapdogs *or* angry and rage-filled. You can take action without being so hateful, and you can be moderate and considered in that action without rolling over.


    Two things. One, I don't recall praising in any way the violence that occurred to this woman. If I did please point it out and I'll concede my error. Two, when men praise the Sodini's of the world, instead of outrage by women it should be viewed for what it is. Men feeling desperate.

    In response to point 1, I admit you haven't, to your credit, but I was referring to many of the MRAs who have, such as for instance Arpagus. The problem with your second point is that feminists can use the exact same argument--whenever someone like Marilyn French says something hateful about men (despite the fact that the quote itself is of dubious provenance, as our host mentioned in the other thread), feminists would say, "don't condemn her! You men should watch out! You've pushed us women this far!!!" Remember, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.


    True, but being docile little boys won't get us anything but patronized.

    Perhaps so, but as I said above, this is a false dichotomy--you don't have to be docile lapdogs *or* rage-filled crazies. There are other paths.

    ReplyDelete
  53. nick


    I'd bet that the guy who masturbated while having milk poured over him is happier then you are. He has the art community expectance. You have a thousand or so bitter guys circle jerking on the internet. Faceless and nameless. A so called movement where no movement really exists.

    ReplyDelete
  54. If it was a woman masturbating while having milk poured on her on stage, it would be female oppression, objectification and degradation of women. But when it's a male, well there is a double standard

    But that wasn't your point. Your original point was mocking Kave for attending a performance where that happened, as if there was something wrong or shameful about it and Kave had somehow lost credibility as a result.

    ReplyDelete
  55. "I'd bet that the guy who masturbated while having milk poured over him is happier then you are. He has the art community expectance"

    How is he happier than me? I am perfectly happy here.

    "You have a thousand or so bitter guys circle jerking on the internet. Faceless and nameless"

    The feminism movement is a 100 times bigger. You have 10 million or so bitter women circle jerking on the internet. Faceless and nameless.

    Oh, I am forgetting, feminists love their double standards even that they preach for equality at the same time.

    Its okay for a woman to complain about men at any place at any time but when it's a man, he must be condemned immediately.

    Around of applause for feminist bigotry

    ReplyDelete
  56. Lady vic

    There is nothing wrong with having 2 points to a problem

    ReplyDelete
  57. @ Nick

    You still haven't explained what is wrong or shameful about the performance, or why we should think less of Kave and what he has to say because he attended.

    Try to focus on the merits or demerits of the performance itself, not 'but if it had been X, you would have hated it!'. It wasn't X, it was Y. Why is Y bad?

    ReplyDelete
  58. Lady Vic

    If you don’t find it disturbing for ANYONE to enjoy watching someone masturbate publicly on stage, I really question your merits and your morals. Why would someone want to see such a play? It's ludicrous.

    Here we have feminists judging men on objectification, expoilting women and how they operate their sexuality and then in another stance, there is nothing wrong with what's being discussed. heh

    ReplyDelete
  59. See, I don't think masturbation is something to be ashamed of. Masturbation as art? Sure, why not? I don't really mind if it's a man or woman up on that stage, I can think of a few ways for the performance to have artistic merit. Again, it's a little weird, but it's not outright immoral.

    You're still failing at answering the question.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Lady vic

    What question am I failing? It's no doubt weird for someone to enjoy watching a man masturbate with milk getting poured on him. If you enjoy this, well it raises concerns for me.

    I find it funny how you are trying to justify such an outrageous act and the people who enjoy watching it.

    Blabble on all you want with your poor attempts of justifications. I have pretty much made my point clear.

    It's pointless trying to further discuss this with you as in your feminist perspective, a feminist can never be wrong

    Carry on

    ReplyDelete
  61. Nick

    It wasn't a play. it was performance art. It was supposed to be disturbing.

    Something your little redneck mind can't quite understand.

    Cute though.. I threw that out as an after thought and you hillbillies latched onto it.

    ReplyDelete
  62. What question am I failing?

    You are failing to explain why this performance is wrong, outrageous or immoral, and why we should immediately be suspicious of anyone who attends this performance, enjoys it or just doesn't mind that it happened.

    Your entire argument seems to be "It's wrong because it's wrong!" (or, perhaps, "It's wrong because feminists suck!") That might work on a kindergartener, but not among adults. You actually have to back up your claims with evidence or reasoning, and so far, you're failing at that.

    Yeah, it's a bit weird, but a lot of good art is weird. Enjoying things that are weird (or just tolerating them) doesn't make someone a terrible human being.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Well,this discussion has taken a strange turn. I was going to mention another performance artist whose name rhymes with "Maren Dinley," but I think I'd better leave well enough alone.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I like how enjoying or not enjoying performance art has become a feminist issue somehow.

    Also if we're weighing in, I don't get performance art but I am for the right to do crazy shit as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

    Also, nick, as has been explained over and over to you, most modern feminists are pro-porn.

    ReplyDelete
  65. hey david, is there a reason that richard is allowed to violate your commenting policy? From my understanding those who cannot play nice in the sandbox are removed from it

    ReplyDelete
  66. A PSA that suggests that injudicious social conditioning could result in men becoming rapists...

    Because they have distorted the message to be a PSA that suggests that men are rapists from birth and need to have this inherent flaw conditioned out of them. Some (not necessarily on this blog, but on other MRA sites) have taken the message to mean that the PSA is suggesting that male children should be killed.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Yeah, Richard, the thing is, this hate and oppression you keep railing against isn't real. It's made up. Nobody hates you. Nobody is oppressing you.

    Lara Logan was raped. That's a real thing that happened to a real person who exists outside of Internet message boards.

    You've gotten yourself into a place where you refuse to feel empathy for a woman who was gang-raped, because she's a woman and Women Are The Enemy. Not only do you not feel sorry for her, you just twist it into yet another opportunity to feel sorry for yourself for who-the-hell-knows-what. That is not a good place to be. You need to get out of that place.

    She's not Women. She's a woman.

    ReplyDelete
  68. I didn't think I made a comment about that performance piece in this thread. I thought that maybe David had erased it?

    I didn't. Our mra boys took a part of a statement I made on another post to have fun with (boys will be boys).

    Btw, my 16 year old son is twice the man these boys will ever be.

    Here is my comment in full.

    Richard said:

    "She also tried to teach that lesbians seducing underaged girls is "good rape."

    The quote you stated is from the original Vagina Monologues. I do not believe
    Dworkin was involved in the writing of that play.

    Speaking of the Vagina Monologues as someone who attends the theater, fringe fests, etc I’ve always wondered why there is so little understanding of alternative performance art in America (actually I don’t wonder). Hopefully I can explain it to you.

    The Vagina Monologues consisted of narratives of women’s personal experiences with their bodies. One of the narratives was from a lesbian who had sex with an adult woman as a teen, she spoke about how she felt about the relationship. “Good rape” meant that although it would be considered to be statutory rape it she considered it to be a positive experience.

    As the Vagina Monologues gained in popularity this monologue was taken out of the production because of in my opinion puritan views of teen sex that is rampant in North America.

    I once attended a performance art piece, which the artist (a guy) stripped down and masturbated while being dosed with milk, makes the VM look pretty tame in comparison.

    Because his performance stayed within the art community the undertones of what seemed to be an Oedipus complex did not make national news."

    ....
    Why do they keep needing to do that?

    ReplyDelete
  69. Another pussy begging wimp boy trying to crawl in that oversized handbag with Captain Bathrobe, and David.

    Again with the handbag? Seriously, WTF? I don't mind being insulted, Richard, but to be insulted in such a hackneyed, inartful, repetitious manner...why, why, it's an INSULT I tells ya!

    I'm profoundly disappointed, Richard, I really am. I put considerable time and effort into antagonizing you and your ilk, and this is all I get? Handbags? The next time you insult me, I expect you to put some real effort into it. No more half-assing it, m'kay?

    With affection,

    Captain Bathrobe

    ReplyDelete
  70. Nick::: It's no surprise that many feminist men are probably the creepiest men of all. Many may use feminism to get closer to women with the "I'll protect you" stance. Such like a creepy old man telling a girl that he will drive her safely home... :::

    Really?

    Seems to me it would be far more creepy to have someone who absolutely no respect, consideration or even a modest liking for members of my gender offer me a ride home. Not that a member of the MRA bunch around here would. Or they might - but they'd expect to get sex for it. They appear to see every interaction between men and women as a transaction for sexual access to the woman's body. That's creepy.

    And the fact that you think a feminist man would have the same expectation is nothing more than projection.

    ReplyDelete
  71. LOL @ the "I'll protect you" strategy for feminist men to seduce us helpless ladyfolk.

    So according to the MRM, feminists are "getting what we deserve" because we've decided we don't need men anymore. Simultaneously, feminists use men to defend us. Contradiction much?

    I'm fairly certain that the whole point of feminism is that women don't need men to rescue us.

    ReplyDelete
  72. briget, I'm kind of giving Richard some extre leeway here -- call it the "Richard Pass" -- because he's really just digging a bigger hole for himself with each comment. Also, his insults are sort of hilarious. It's actually quite comfortable in the oversized handbag with the rest of the manginas.

    ReplyDelete
  73. CB, you hairy-legged feminist!! Get outta my oversized handbag!! And take your hundreds of cats with you!!!

    ReplyDelete
  74. I'm kind of giving Richard some extre leeway here -- call it the "Richard Pass" -- because he's really just digging a bigger hole for himself with each comment. Also, his insults are sort of hilarious.

    Yeah, he's sort of like the blog's pet iguana that puffs up and hisses every so often.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Pam,

    I'll admit, it has been a while since I've last had a wax...

    ReplyDelete
  76. My god, boys! The outrage over a little public sexual performance! Have you never been to a strip club?

    ReplyDelete
  77. I, too, am flummoxed over the outrage! about the milk masturbation performance art. Not my type of art, but neither is Thomas Kinkade.

    And I have read The Vagina Monologues. Haven't seen a performance but I don't want to. Yeah, the teen/older woman story was uncomfortable to read, but I'm far more outraged over female genital mutilation than over a sexually curious teen.

    But apparently rape is only serious when it's a female teenager and an older woman, and not a reporter covering a monumental story.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Well, that sux. I've been assaulted myself. I feel terrible for her.

    ReplyDelete
  79. nicko81m said...
    "It's no surprise that many feminist men are probably the creepiest men of all. Many may use feminism to get closer to women with the "I'll protect you" stance. Such like a creepy old man telling a girl that he will drive her safely home. Then we have the ones who like to watch naked men whack off while getting milk poured on them."

    I think we can safetly state that attention whore's rep on this site has been effectively shot to pieces. He needs to be involutarily committed. But I think even almost as disturbing is the rest of the feminists support, and the claims of being family oriented.

    To MGTOW folks, this is the nutjobs we are dealing with. Seriously deranged people under the facade of smug self-righteousness. Don't underestimate their proclivity for hate, insanity, and solidarity.

    You are right about feminist men. Take a look at Hugo Schwyzer for instance. At least Hugo admits his failings but they are myriad, including being drug addled in the past and womanizing. It wouldn't be that bad if he had not castigated other men and expecting them to shape up when those men probably had no where near the psychological problems Hugo possessed. For a time, he was confessing his sins and then being critical of many MRAs despite some shady history.

    He's the tip the iceberg. Hugo, while his feminism is rather insidious, is not as caustic as others out there---and they have been caught up in some nasty dealings and foibles. Yet they have the hubris to judge others from up on high while being shielded with their feminist badge.

    Chalk up another disturbing factor---the urge not only to slam others, but to even punish those not in the feminist hold while rationalizing their own transgressions (illegal sex with a teen, etc.). It's even worse than hypocrisy; such hypocrisy is on a rough level, they engage in more nefarious and disgusting behavior while damning "nice guys," MGTOW, PUA, etc.

    I hope the feminists continue to wear their psychological malaise, childish mockery, hate, scapegoating, and misandry on their sleeve through the entire length of this blog. It may add more fuel to the fire for smashing feminism than even MRAs could do on their own.

    ReplyDelete
  80. "Okay, I give up. MRA/MGTOW guys, what the hell are you all so angry about? I am completely stumped. I've now seen posts from you guys celebrating women (not particular women, just Women in general) getting raped, getting murdered, getting beaten up, getting cancer, and passing out drunk in alleys."

    Don't equate this kind of thing with ALL MRA's, after all, you all try your damndist to seperate yourselves from Andrea Dworkin. Not all activists are rational. The reason you see so much of the bad is because that is SPECIFICALLY what David is looking for. You are getting an intentionally biased example of the MRA.

    If you paid attention to the following website (which is simply a collection of links to other news sources), you would see multiple reports every week (almost daily) about false rape accusers (as in confirmed false accusers) and how rarely they get jailed, as well as female teachers sexually abusing their male students. (and the comments on these sites are pretty typically misandric, with comments such as "boys don't need protection from sexual predators". If you treated all women the way you condemn all MRA's, based solely on the prevalence of worst case examples being collected, this site would have you up in arms.

    http://news.mensactivism.org/

    ReplyDelete
  81. Kratch said

    "Don't equate this kind of thing with ALL MRA's, after all, you all try your damndist to seperate yourselves from Andrea Dworkin. Not all activists are rational. The reason you see so much of the bad is because that is SPECIFICALLY what David is looking for. You are getting an intentionally biased example of the MRA"

    How can a feminist bigot ever figure this simple thing out? Their minds are too deluded.

    ReplyDelete
  82. correct me if I'm wrong but isn't RAINN also involved in support for the 1 out of 33 men who are also raped? No? huh then how come there is this: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/male-sexual-assault
    The fact of the matter is that feminists DO care about male victims, but since people like richard do not want to admit that there is something wrong with rape, we find nothing but constant resistance to our help.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Nick, you are so deluded you don't realize we have already figured that out.

    What is irritating (to say the least) is the refusal of many (not all) MRAs to admit when another MRA is being misogynistic/crazy.

    For example, you.

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  84. On watching people on stage masturbate while having milk poured on them-I do not think this is actually wrong, for anyone, assuming the performer is a consenting adult and the audience is adults who may leave. I don't think it is wrong even if it is not for the purpose of 'art' and is because the audience sexually enjoys watching a guy masturbate while milk is poured on him. Though I suspect that is the reason the mras think Kave should be ashamed of it, because a dude watching another dude masturbating might turn him on and be *gasp* gay. Unfortunately for them, not all of us are homophobes and some of us are queer. So he watched a guy masturbate while having milk poured on him? Whatever, I have done ten things kinkier than that in the span of one weekend.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Sandy, please explain where I have tried to justify misogyny?

    Instead of me doing more typing and work, I will copy and paste what I said in another thread here...

    To say that men in today’s western societies have no problems at all is laughable. As it is when it's going in the opposite direction.

    But when men talk about male issues, they are likely to be accused of being misogynists, someone who can’t get laid, someone who disrespects women etc etc etc.

    If you can sit here with a straight face and not call this discrimination and oppression against the male gender, there is seriously something fucking wrong

    ReplyDelete
  86. Nick-if they actually did talk about male issues like divorce problems, child custody issues and ensuring that abused men have the same respect and treatment that abused women have, then they would not be accused of being misogynists because they would not be acting like that.

    However that is not what they are doing. What they are doing is mocking rape victims. They are stating that she deserved what she got. They are claiming rape does not happen, in the case of Richard, they are even making it about them and not the person who was beaten and raped.

    So yes, they will be called that. Because they are acting that way. Want to be taken seriously? Tell these asshats to stop being such asshats. Point out (like someone else did here) that this hurts not helps your cause.

    It is not discrimination or oppression to point that out.

    ReplyDelete
  87. "Nick-if they actually did talk about male issues like divorce problems, child custody issues and ensuring that abused men have the same respect and treatment that abused women have,"

    OMG OMG OMG

    I can't believe you are actually saying this.

    A lot of the time, I really think, why should I bother posting in here or make a reply

    Nevermind

    ReplyDelete
  88. "theclementine said...
    I'm fairly certain that the whole point of feminism is that women don't need men to rescue us."

    Absolutely right. Just ask Lara Logan.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Wytchfinder said:

    'Look at the time he's spent on this blog---he's trolling, attention whoring, and it's creepy how he's targeting anyone that even mildly disagrees with the themes here.'

    Wytchfinder said:

    'The idea that (he) is waiting for hours behind his screen like that is rather unnerving. I would suggest someone like that get another hobby, but it only makes them more fixated. Maybe obsessed.'

    Wytch said:

    'This is the nutjobs we are dealing with. Seriously deranged people under the facade of smug self-righteousness. Don't underestimate their proclivity for hate, insanity, and solidarity.'

    RIP Irony.

    10,000 BC - 2011 AD

    Sadly missed.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Wytchfinde said

    "Look at the time he's spent on this blog---he's trolling, attention whoring, and it's creepy how he's targeting anyone that even mildly disagrees with the themes here."

    The truth about David that all pro feminists in this blog ignore

    I wonder if he even sleeps.

    Its funny how feminists use shaming tactics on MRA's as for saying that they are not socially compatible and they have no friends. Yet, your master, David, is all of this more than any MRA on this blog.

    Behind the scenes of it all, he has no friends, he has no social life. If he did, he would not have so much time searching for the next MRA comment to post on this blog. He would not have all this time to put in so much effort in this blog.

    A person with a normal social life simply wouldn’t be bothered taking up the time and effort for such a blog if he had a world outside and people to meet. For a person with a good social life, there is at least a 1000 things that would come before putting in the effort to maintain a blog and keep it up to date with new threads on a daily basis.

    If anyone can't see this, you are completely blind and retarded.

    I truly feel sorry for David, not only because of his sad lacking social life but also because he is brainwashed with feminist garbage.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Interesting how they alternate between saying she wasn't really raped and expressing gladness that she was raped.

    ReplyDelete
  92. So talking about men's rights = saying Lara Logan deserved to be raped. wait, wut?

    ReplyDelete
  93. I had the great pleasure of exchanging some emails with Lara Logan back when I was a blogger with The Liberal Avenger. She was an obviously wonderful person and it breaks my heart that this happened to her.

    That's really all I have to say. I hope she comes back stronger than ever. Go Lara!

    ReplyDelete
  94. American women are not a commodity you can boycott. They're people.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Nick, in this very thread you justify misogyny. Unless you are willing to admit that the quotes in this post are misogynistic and wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Oh, poor pitiful Nick, whom no one likes and decides to take his anger out on women. It's impossible for any woman, ever, to suffer more than Nick. Any empathy or compassion that goes to someone else, especially a woman, is compassion that rightly belongs to Nick. And he will pitch a fit until you pay him more attention.

    Nick: learn to argue at higher than a sixth grade level. "You suck because you suck!" is not a valid argument and just makes people laugh at you.

    ReplyDelete
  97. @ wythch

    It's funny about Kave. I've been to plenty of plays and odd spots but I've never "accidentally" found myself watching some freak choke his chicken and get milk poured on himself. Odd how "accidents" like that happen, eh?

    Random Brother

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  98. Interesting how they alternate between saying she wasn't really raped and expressing gladness that she was raped.

    Welcome to MRAville, where the hate-of-the-moment conflicts with the hate-of-the-next-moment.

    ReplyDelete
  99. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  100. @ shaenon

    shaenon said: "Yeah, Richard, the thing is, this hate and oppression you keep railing against isn't real. It's made up. Nobody hates you. Nobody is oppressing you."

    How do you know if I am being oppressed or not? Do you know my personal circumstances? Do you know what I have been through? If you know none of this you cannot honestly claim to know whether I've been oppressed or not.

    shaenon: "Lara Logan was raped. That's a real thing that happened to a real person who exists outside of Internet message boards."

    So, again the standard is rape? MRA's only can complain if they were raped?

    shaenon: "You've gotten yourself into a place where you refuse to feel empathy for a woman who was gang-raped, because she's a woman and Women Are The Enemy."

    Actually feminists are my enemy.

    shaenon: "Not only do you not feel sorry for her, you just twist it into yet another opportunity to feel sorry for yourself for who-the-hell-knows-what. That is not a good place to be. You need to get out of that place."

    I didn't get myself into any place. My life experiences brought me here and I think, to the best of my ability, that my conclusions about life are correct. Hell, I could be completely wrong, ten, twenty years from now, I may see the world differently, but right now I see men being screwed over and I see no reason to pretend that a group that does me harm is my friend.

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  101. It's funny about Kave. I've been to plenty of plays and odd spots but I've never "accidentally" found myself watching some freak choke his chicken and get milk poured on himself. Odd how "accidents" like that happen, eh?

    But that doesn't mean that the next performance art rendition of Puss in Boots or The Three Billy Goats Gruff that you attend won't have an "accident" like that happen.

    ReplyDelete
  102. @ Sandy

    1. Sandy, you state that you care about issues that affect men, would you care to share a few, if you don't mind.

    2. As far as the presumption of innocence goes.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/2010/12/14/jessica-valenti-calls-for-end-to-presumption-of-innocence-due-process/

    Random Brother

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  103. @ Pam

    Better "Puss in Boots" than "The Milk Man In Hand." :)

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  104. But since you don't know what the performance art is going to be prior to purchasing the ticket, even you might end up in the audience for "Hand Milking Puss Man in Boots"

    And lookit that, I got a little smile outta you!!

    ReplyDelete
  105. "My god, boys! The outrage over a little public sexual performance! Have you never been to a strip club?"

    Yeah, and no dude was there bathing in milk and playing with his schlong, thank god.

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  106. No one has yet given me a good, reasonable argument as to what's wrong with that kind of performance.

    Surely, if the answer is so obvious, it shouldn't be that hard to explain it so my tiny, inferior ladybrain can understand it?

    ReplyDelete
  107. @ Pam

    . . .And now I've sworn off performance art forever.

    Random Brother

    BTW - Don't be dissing the billy goats.

    ReplyDelete
  108. @ Richard- That's not me. I am not against the presumption of innocence.

    Issues that I care about:
    -Equal involvement of father's in child care.
    -Children's rights (including the right to be adjudicated in juvenile court, the right to proper medical care, the right to care and support, and the right to parental contact where it is in their best interests)
    -Equal access to domestic violence services
    -More men then women commit suicide. This is a problem.
    -Men are both more likely to commit and more likely to be victims of violent crimes. This is a problem (since I do not believe there is anything inherently violent about being male).
    -I am for men being able to express or not express masculine or feminine traits without ridicule or social consequences.

    As far as what I do about this, I work with male (and female) dv victims as well as falsely accuse male (and female) parents. I'm active in legislation reform which is when I first became frustrated with MRAs, many come to the table ill informed as to the current status of the law which only trips us up.

    ReplyDelete
  109. (Also, why don't you tell us what issues that impact women you care about.)

    ReplyDelete
  110. . . .And now I've sworn off performance art forever.

    What a drastic manoeuvre!! [reminds self not to mention that Santa Claus is a fictional character]

    BTW - Don't be dissing the billy goats

    Who ME??? NEVER!!!!

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  111. @Sandy,

    Not asking this question because I don't believe you, as I DO believe you, but am just interested in hearing (if possible) an example or two of how some MRAs come to the table ill informed as to the current status of the law and how that trips you (and the others involved) up in in your legislative reform efforts. I have my own thoughts, primarily based on reading MRA material online and a couple of books, as to how beliefs or opinions that they hold dear to actually end up not working in their favour, but wouldn't mind hearing some concrete examples of this, if that's possible for you to provide without breaking any privacy, confidentiality, or classified information laws.

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  112. God, people are disgusting. Sometimes I feel like there's no hope for humans.

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  113. @ Pam, they want to ask for things we already have. When I or other point out that that is already in the law, they complain that the law is not being enforced by the court's. Whether or not that's true, asking that it be added AGAIN obviously isn't going to help. Eventually we get frustrated with each other, they splinter off and propose their own legislation, legislature points out that we already have most of this stuff.

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  114. So your response Nick is: I have no idea how to respond so I am going to have hysterics.

    Awww, would widdle Nicky wike a cookie? (yes, I am stating you are acting childish.)

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  115. Elizabeth, let's not disparage children. It's possible given Nick's reasoning ability and limited world view that he is a child.

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  116. "So your response Nick is: I have no idea how to respond so I am going to have hysterics."

    Towards what? What are you talking about you insane femiclown?

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  117. Towards what? What are you talking about you insane femiclown?

    Exactly.

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  118. Thanks, Sandy, for your response to my query. I was thinking that the manner in which they may have been tripping up the efforts for legislative reform was a little different than what you have described (was thinking of the dichotomous, zero-sum mentality that I've often seen displayed), and I appreciate your time in explaining, in a nutshell, what the actual problem is.

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  119. No one has yet given me a good, reasonable argument as to what's wrong with that kind of performance.

    Unfortunately, you probably won't receive what you've requested, as they're not interested in debating the merits or faults of that kind of performance, just in using it as a stick for poking Kave.

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  120. @ Sandy

    1. I am pro abortion. Not late term, though. I would not like to see abortion threatened as I think it is a government overstep into an area they cannot and should not possibly get involved.

    2. I am anti rape, and by rape I mean the traditional meaning of rape, not a couple of drunk people having sex, and then one having regrets. And before some other poster calls foul on this one, I focus primarily on American laws, I'm not for running to other countries and making them have similar laws and or culture. Rape is a horrible thing and the U.S. government should work hard to lessen the amount of rapes.

    3. I do have a soft spot if you will for the concept of body image esp, the whole she's too fat in regards to celebrities. (Though, honestly, I'm not above using it in an argument).

    Random Brother

    4.

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  121. Unfortunately, you probably won't receive what you've requested, as they're not interested in debating the merits or faults of that kind of performance, just in using it as a stick for poking Kave.

    I know, this is my stick for poking back. I get irritated when people try to argue by saying, 'You like weird shit, so what you say doesn't count.'

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  122. I find it absolutely laughable how the feminists on here think there is nothing queer and ludicrous about people enjoying watching a man in a public play masturbating in front of everyone while getting milk poured on him.

    The reasonable argument simply is that it's absolutely ludicrous.

    It's like me saying that it's okay to start masturbating over animals in a zoo and/or it's okay for me to enjoy watching other people masturbate over animals in a zoo. And if you simply say it's ludicrous as it truly is, it's not a validated argument ROFL

    What I see here is feminists sticking up for each other. If this was in the position of an MRA, feminists would be singing a whole different tune

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  123. Y'know Richard, and I say this with all sincerity, I do not doubt for a moment that beneath that facade of bravado that you amply display for us, you actually have a very big heart.

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  124. And regarding the OP as every OP in this blog, of course there are lunatic men around who will simply say offensive things toward such a situation either in most cases just be a shock jock or some actually mean it.

    The same old laughable tune in this blog is that if some MRA's express misogyny, it means the whole movement is misogynist. But if anyone was to say that just because plenty of feminists are misandrist it means the whole movement is misandrist, it would be ludicrous in their view even that they are being shameless hypocrites

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  125. I want to know what the difference is between a guy going to a strip club and getting a lap dance or with watching porn and masturbating to it and a guy going to a performance art piece where a guy is masturbating on stage. Seriously because the only difference I see is that one was done to absorb art and the other was done to jerk off.

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  126. I find it absolutely laughable how the feminists on here think there is nothing queer and ludicrous about people enjoying watching a man in a public play masturbating in front of everyone while getting milk poured on him.

    And it's equally laughable how the non-feminists on here automatically attach people's sentiments to what they are experiencing. The person who mentioned said play did not remark on whether he or anyone else in the audience enjoyed it, he just mentioned that he attended a performance art piece in which it occurred.

    The reasonable argument simply is that it's absolutely ludicrous.

    Actually, that's not a reasonable argument, it's just circular reasoning or begging the question.

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  127. There are many many many feminists who are sarcastic towards male issues such as saying "what about teh menz". This is obvious misandry as it presents that male issues are not taken seriously and it's simply a joke.

    So I guess I can use the same argument as David and the rest of the feminuts in this blog and say that the whole feminist movement is misandrist and insane

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  128. Towards what? What are you talking about you insane femiclown?

    Would that make Elizabeth and Sandy the Insane Femiclown Posse?

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  129. No, Nick, as has been explained repeatedly, "what about teh menz" refers to the simplistic answer "but what about men?" presented to any issue effecting women. The phrase mocks the idea that pointing out that group X also has problems solves or diminishes group Y's problems.

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  130. I think nick has proved my point about the performance art panic being rooted in plain old fashioned homophobia..."feminists on here think there is nothing queer and ludicrous about people enjoying watching a man in a public play masturbating in front of everyone while getting milk poured on him." You know, nick, I am not terrified by queer people and queer things. I am also queer myself, so your pathetic whinging fails to impress.

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  131. " No, Nick, as has been explained repeatedly, "what about teh menz" refers to the simplistic answer "but what about men?" presented to any issue effecting women. The phrase mocks the idea that pointing out that group X also has problems solves or diminishes group Y's problems."

    That's what the likes of feminists such as David and others in here want people to think to cover up any wrong doing from feminists. But you can't speak for every feminist who uses this phrase. If you are claiming that you are speaking for every feminist, I find that laughable.

    I can bet my bottom dollar if MRAs started going around using the phrase "what about teh womenz", David and other feminists such as your self would not try to justify it with such excuses. The same type of justification you are using for feminists would never even cross your mind. The feminists would be crying out misogyny within a split second.

    It's entertaining to see feminists in here always making up excuses and justifications towards sexist women/feminists. It does truly look like that you people think that women are perfect princesses that can never do wrong.

    But when there is just a small tiny hint that a man COULD be a misogynist, you will all start screaming in your little soap boxes without any doubt crossing your mind what so ever.

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  132. DarkSideCat

    You feminists are not making any real argument. The fact is that it's ludicrous and the feminist defence is that it's okay to be ludicrous. ROFL

    I pretty much win this argument more than anything. But believe what you want in your little warped feminist world.

    This argument will just keep going around circles as you give me the same answer and I give the same answer to my opinion towards yours. Round and round we go

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  133. I'm sickened by things that hurt me. Got it?

    --Richard

    I think this went unremarked, but really, folks should pay attention: Richard just announced that he is a sociopath.

    He's undeserving of any further consideration or engagement.

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  134. @ briget @ darksidecat

    Perhaps comedian Bill Burr can help shed a little light on the subject for you ladies

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xs4WGEnlAk

    Also I'll add another Bill Burr classic that refeers to the whole gay as a slur "issue." A bit overstated but some truth there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LRcmg9mxRQ

    Random Brother

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  135. That's what the likes of feminists such as David and others in here want people to think to cover up any wrong doing from feminists.

    btw, how's that tinfoil hat collection of yours coming along?

    But when there is just a small tiny hint that a man COULD be a misogynist, you will all start screaming in your little soap boxes without any doubt crossing your mind what so ever.

    Actually, I prefer to scream while standing ON my little soap box, y'know, "raven feminut" that I am.

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  136. nick, what about teh menz is something that feminists use when men who have privilege coming out of their ears (white, cis, heterosexual, upper-middle class, able bodied, etc) come into our discussion and start screaming that since we are not constantly and only talking about issues that effect men we are doing it wrong. We don't use it when there are actual legitimate issues that effect men in a manner that is furthering the patriarchy too. The idea behind it is that we all agree that there are things in our society which hurt men, but when we are talking about something like ovarian cancer which only women and transgender men experience, it is not appropriate for cis men to start whining that we aren't talking about paid parental leave, there is a time and place for that conversation, a conversation which we have do have in feminist spaces, but when women are talking about the stigma of living with ovarian cancer and the fact that frequently we can't get the health services that we need because people reduce a woman's worth to her reproductive value, we don't want to hear that you would like to stay home with your baby but can't because your job won't let you. In fact for women who would have liked to be a mother one day and who just underwent a hysterectomy for her cancer, it's extremely rude and hurtful. Those silencing techniques happen all the time in feminist friendly spaces.

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  137. @ Sally

    So I should be happy about things that hurt me? WTF?

    Random Brother

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  138. "nick, what about teh menz is something that feminists use when men who have privilege coming out of their ears"

    Can you please give me a validated and logical argument how the middle class white male is privileged?

    I have never ever seen a feminist give a validated and logical argument to this question. I have asked this question to so many feminists but they always seem to give dumb answers.

    “We don't use it when there are actual legitimate issues that effect men in a manner that is furthering the patriarchy too. “

    Patriarchy in western societies 2011? ROFL What patriarchy? Please explain? Why are you idiots so friggen delusional? It never ceases to amaze me.

    Contemporary feminism in the western world is truly a cack session

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  139. richard said

    "So I should be happy about things that hurt me? WTF?"

    Yes Richard, because we are supposedly privileged and all so our problems are not important. But try telling a feminist that this way of thinking is sexist is as hopeful as it is talking to a retard.

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  140. Nick, calling something ludicrous is not, by itself, an argument either. It just means that you don't like it. Fair enough, but it doesn't mean you've done anything but express your particular preference on the matter.

    An argument might consist of, for example, arguing that such a performance is offensive to community morals and has no redeeming social or artistic value for the following reasons...etc. I still might not agree with that, but at least it would be an argument.

    What you've said (and I'll admit I haven't read everything you wrote on this subject) isn't so much an argument as a reaction. While you are certainly entitled to your own feelings on the matter, you haven't really proven anything except that you don't like it.

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  141. @ Captain Bathrobe or any other feminist

    Please explain to me the "art" or redeeming social value in a play where some guy chokes his shit while milk is being poured on him.

    Random Brother

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  142. @ nicko81m

    I wonder about the whole privilege thing also. By in large, no one gives a shit about men. If you end up a bum, fuck you, you're a failure. Hell this even counts for vets. What privilege do men have?

    Random Brother

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  143. Also, CB, while you're at it: why do we need still-life pictures of bowls of fruit? Cezanne was always painting that shit. What's the point? When I want fruit, I go to the grocery store. And I can eat that shit too! You can't eat a Cezanne! Well, technically, you could but it would probably make you sick.

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  144. Richard

    Precisely.

    If a woman ends up being a bum, it's somehow the fault of evil men. Women can never be at fault in a feminist view. Only the inferior male gender can cause fault in this world

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  145. @ Captain Bathrobe or any other feminist

    Please explain to me the "art" or redeeming social value in a play where some guy chokes his shit while milk is being poured on him.

    Random Brother


    Actually, I wouldn't know. There's quite a lot of art out there that I don't understand--line dancing for one. My point was that Nick didn't really have an argument so much as a visceral reaction to the concept.

    My reaction, for what it's worth, is that whole thing seems rather silly and self-indulgent on the part of the artist. The artistic point being made--beyond shocking the audience--is not at all obvious to me. Nevertheless, I'm willing to suspend judgment since 1) I've never actually seen such a performance, and the artistic impact might be different when one is actually present; and 2) I'm something of a Philistine, and if my tastes defined the outer boundary of what is acceptable in art then our society would probably be much the poorer for it. In short, I'm willing to concede that there may be more to it than I'm seeing at present, even though I frankly don't see much value in it from where I stand.

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  146. By in large, no one gives a shit about men. If you end up a bum, fuck you, you're a failure.

    Although this attitude is real, I don't see how it's the fault of feminism. The idea that a man who fails economically has only himself to blame is concept that predates modern feminism. I think it's more the result of free-market capitalist ideology, not feminism.

    The idea that female homelessness can, in part, be attributable to domestic violence is the result of feminist research, however. What I don't see is feminists pushing the idea that homeless men have no one to blame but themselves. If anything, feminists tend to be supportive of social programs designed to ameliorate homelessness for both men and women.

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  147. "My point was that Nick didn't really have an argument so much as a visceral reaction to the concept."

    What's the feminist argument? rrrr ummm it's NORMAL in a public play for a man to masturbate while having milk poured on him and it’s NORMAL for people to enjoy watching this in a public play.

    That's not an argument.

    But this shit fight will be never ending regardless how obvious the foolishness of the feminist stance is.

    I am certainly not going to waste any more of my time with this as it will just keep going around and round in circles.

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  148. I'm not saying it's normal, Nick, only that I'm not willing to dismiss it out of hand simply because I don't understand it. Being "normal" and having artistic value are two different concepts.

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  149. Will someone please explain to me why we are arguing about the merits of performance art?

    This is a fantastic example of how fanatics frame all their opinions through their fanatic lens.

    "I hate performance art! Because men's rights!"

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  150. why should I nick? every time someone here tries to explain anything to you you turn it back around and say that it is somehow something that we did wrong, instead of listening. You think that our responses are dumb, by your own admission. You just don't like admitting that you have privilege that you refuse to accept and that is why you never get laid.

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  151. Sandy,

    I think the logic runs thusly

    1. Kave admitted to attending an admittedly strange piece of performance art.
    2. Kave is a feminist.
    3. Other feminists defended the concept of performance art in the abstract.
    4. ????

    5. Ergo, Kave and all other feminists totally enjoy watching guys masturbate while milk is being poured over them and this is yet another reason why feminism is bad.

    Presumably, profit is soon to follow.

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  152. ""theclementine said...
    I'm fairly certain that the whole point of feminism is that women don't need men to rescue us."

    Absolutely right. Just ask Lara Logan. "

    If you got your news from somewhere other than Fox you might have heard that the first to begin pulling the guys off her were a group of Arabic women.

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  153. "Can you please give me a validated and logical argument how the middle class white male is privileged?"

    Whoa! I just passed out from laughing so much. Damn, only here can you find such ridiculous and hilarious statements.

    Whoever said this, stay batshit insane bro. Your woman-hating whining bullshit never ceases to amaze me. Oh my gosh you are a walking punch-line.

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  154. The reasonable argument simply is that it's absolutely ludicrous.

    No. You fail again.

    It's like me saying that it's okay to start masturbating over animals in a zoo and/or it's okay for me to enjoy watching other people masturbate over animals in a zoo. And if you simply say it's ludicrous as it truly is, it's not a validated argument.

    Umm, sure, dude. You might get in trouble for public indecency, but if that's what lifts yer luggage....

    Try this:

    "Masturbation is supposed to be a private and personal act. Putting it up on stage devalues it, because it transforms into a public act instead of a personal one."

    There. That's a pretty good argument about why it would be wrong to stage that kind of performance.

    "The body is inherently sinful. We should be constantly trying to grow our spiritual side at the expense of the body. Celebrating the body, especially the sexual nature of the body, is sinful and should not be tolerated."

    I certainly don't agree with *that* argument, but it's been a perennial favorite for several millennia now.

    "Innocent cows were exploited to bring you that milk!"

    Also a little weird, but still legit.

    There? You see what a little logic and intelligence can do? I totally just did your homework for you, you can thank me later by not being a total choad in your next three comments.

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  155. they won't lady vic, these are people who think that raping a journalist is a good thing

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  156. Nick, about time you finally point out that some things that these guys were saying were the wrong things to say.

    Pallid as it was, it was a condemnation. Therefore you get a cookie and some milk too.

    As for the privilege you assume is not there-when you walk down the street at night by yourself, do you ever worry that someone is going to rape you?

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  157. briget said

    "You just don't like admitting that you have privilege that you refuse to accept and that is why you never get laid."

    How can I admit privilege when I have NONE to begin with? You still can't explain what privilege I have. Don't you realise your stance makes you look like a raven idiot?

    Come on, beat me in an argument and prove to me that I have privilege. I am the middle class male. I feel absolutely no privilege over any woman what so ever. Not even to the slightest, not even one little tiny bit. Nada, NONE.

    What have you got to say about that you dumbass femitwit?

    “You just don't like admitting that you have privilege that you refuse to accept and that is why you never get laid.”

    Ahahaha I can get laid and I do get laid on a casual basis. Would this make feminists angry as this is an example of a man getting what he wants from a woman?

    That said, this type of stance is completely chauvinistic. You are basically expressing that women hold superiority over men with sex. And if we don't obey women and agree with women on anything, we won't get to play with the almighty superior pussy.

    You are just as bad as the chauvinist cave men that women have complained about. But chauvinist attitudes are no surprise within the feminist movement.

    keiko44 said:

    "Whoa! I just passed out from laughing so much. Damn, only here can you find such ridiculous and hilarious statements.

    Whoever said this, stay batshit insane bro. Your woman-hating whining bullshit never ceases to amaze me. Oh my gosh you are a walking punch-line."



    This is funny because if I was to start complaining about women being privileged, I would be deemed as a woman hater.

    Can you see the double standard? But of course, today's feminists are shameless hypocrites.

    If any man refuses the assumption that his gender is privileged over women, he’s sexist. If a woman accuses men of being privileged, she’s not sexist

    If women refuse they have privilege, they are not sexist. If a man accuses women of having privilege, he’s sexist

    Welcome to feminazism 2011. The biggest hypocritical idiots on the planet

    Lady Vic

    I am over going in circles with this particular argument. The bottom line is that it’s ludicrous and the feminist stance is that it’s okay to be ludicrous. That’s pretty much what it all comes down to. Its pointless going on and on with this. I am not going to waste my time.

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  158. Elizabeth

    “As for the privilege you assume is not there-when you walk down the street at night by yourself, do you ever worry that someone is going to rape you?”

    How can this be a privilege? This doesn’t make any sense. There are far higher chances of being mugged than there is to be raped. Both men and women are equally targets in this.

    Saying that women get raped and men don’t is not a privilege. It’s simply a certain amount of idiots doing a horrendous crime. Either gender are victims of crime.

    It’s as silly as me saying that just because men are likely to be victims of prejudice in family court, that makes the female gender the privileged gender as a whole in society.

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  159. Actually the issue is that when you walk down the street you may be concerned that you will be mugged but you are not worried that you will be raped.

    For you, the fear of such a thing is not there. It is a privilege for you to not have to worry that you will be violated this way. That is something directly tied to your being male. As a man, there is no reason you would think that could happen.

    But a female does have to worry about it. She cannot blithely wander around without having to take care to pay attention to her surroundings in a way you never would have to simply because you are a man, and not a woman.

    It is a privilege that is so simple and obvious it is easy for you not even see it is there. Because it is not something that a guy thinks about.

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  160. Lady V. wrote:

    I totally just did your homework for you, you can thank me later by not being a total choad in your next three comments.

    Nick's next comment:

    Don't you realise your stance makes you look like a raven idiot?

    Quoth the raven: nevermore.

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  161. I think the point of having privilege is that those who have are usually blind to it.

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  162. *walks into the nearby wall* Yep, indeed.

    Or they do not see their privilege as such but those without do.

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  163. No Elizabeth, it's not privilege, its called paranoia towards men. I think there is more of a chance to get into a car accident than there is to be raped on the street. But thank your own movement for this ridiculous paranoia. If men had the same level of paranoia and distrust towards women, they would be deemed as misogynists. But feminazitwats will always be shameless hypocritical two faced bigots to the end.

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  164. then go away nick. Fine if you are actually going to listen, you have the privilege of being able to read for one thing. That makes you more privileged than 16% of the population of the world. As a man you can walk down the street alone without the fear that someone is going to rape you. That is a privilege that 51% of the american population cannot claim. As a middle class citizen you are likely to own at least one car. That means that you are more privileged than 11% of the american population. You had access to far superior schools than those in a lower income bracket than yourself. I presume you are able bodied (if I am inaccurate in that statement please feel free to correct me and if you are not then I apologize) which means that you can find a job much easier than 54 million people in this country. As a man you have the privilege of bodily autonomy (meaning that the state isn't allowed to write arbitrary laws regarding the function of your body) That is just a short list I could go on if you would like me to

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  165. "Or they do not see their privilege as such but those without do."---Elizabeth

    What I see are feminists refusing to acknowledge that there are reasons for promoting men's rights because there are not many priviledges for most men.

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  166. Actually if men and women were not so messed up on purpose as a result of society conditioning us to be so towards sex, men would probably never have any desire to rape women.

    Then again, I have always thought that we should be more like bonobos and not like chimps anyway.

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  167. Briget, this might make his attitude clearer but Nick is from Oz.

    And Wytch-the reason you see that is because you want to see it that way. Reality reflects something different.

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  168. The problem is, nick (and I say this as a man who's not a feminist), some paranoia towards men *is* justified. From my perspective, as a small, pudgy, unassuming guy, when I go out at night I'm much more afraid of strange men walking up to me and mugging/stabbing/busting a cap in me than I am of a strange woman doing the same. It's simply a fact, and we can argue about why that is, but regardless of whether you're male or female, if you're going to be the subject of violence from a stranger, that stranger is much more likely to be male than female.

    On the other hand, however, there's some reason to be skeptical of the whole "privilege" thing too. It's not as if men really don't have to worry about being raped, especially by people supposedly supposed to protect them--take the case of Abner Louima, who was sodomized (i.e raped) by a group of police officers for just getting into a scuffle at a nightclub. I admit getting raped isn't something a lot of guys think about, but you could argue that it's because a lot of guys don't do a very good job of keeping their eyes open and knowing this kind of stuff happens as opposed to "privilege."

    (in b4 triplanetary accusing me of trolling. Trust me, if I was, I would have bust out the image macros and reaction images by now)

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  169. C'mon nick, don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel!!

    I think David mentioned something about custom t-shirts in a previous article. Perhaps he should consider a "Raven" line of t-shirts... Raven Idiot, Raven Feminazitwat, Raven Femicow.... the possibilities are ENDLESS!!

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  170. pam, I'm seeing a raven wearing a hitler costume with vulvas all over it

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  171. briget, that new Raven line would sure be a hit, dontcha think?

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  172. A final word about performance art:

    A good friend of mine whom I also do a great deal of business with is a very large contributor to the arts programs at our local university. Occasionally my wife and I will accompany him to exhibits put on by the school. This particular piece left all of us in stitches, combined with a resounding “what the heck did we just see?”

    It’s funny you call me a feminist, (I’d consider myself to be a equalist). You mra’s complain about the problems men have but do nothing about these problems.

    My wife made her money in real estate, a number of years ago she started buying up crack houses in bad neighborhoods, renovating them and reselling them to my workers (almost all men) who are in a large part immigrants. She finances their mortgages without interest and has quite honestly transformed streets.

    Her largest project started three years ago after she met the director of a homeless shelter for men. There are many programs in place for aboriginals in our city, or for men wanting help with addictions but for others very little. If it wasn’t for our families connections and yes wealth my brother would be one of those men.

    My wife purchased an apartment building and converted it into a forty-five-unit apartment for men who were homeless. It has a communal kitchen that she keeps stocked with essentials and once a week a nutritionist comes in to help prepare meals with the men who wish to participate. The block has a full-time caretaker who was one of her first residents, and his wife who provides cleaning services for those men who do not take care of their apartments on their own (at first this was a fulltime job but the vast majority take great pride in their apartments now). A psychologist friends of ours volunteers a half day a week of counseling for those that feel they will benefit. She also covers their costs of prescriptions for medications that welfare will not cover if needed. A couple of times a month she meets with her tenants and asks them if they are in need of anything.

    Because she chooses who are her tenants and rarely allows treaty Indians in (because they have their own programs) she does not run it as a non-profit. So no government money goes into her endeavor. She also will not speak to the press, in fact only our close friends know about the project. Except for issues that would affect the safety of the other residents she imposes no restrictions on what they do in their own space.

    Most people here will understand why I can’t help but look down on our mra friends and their ridiculous notion of how the world is against them. In a heart beat I know if they came across my wife they would label her as a feminist, she has little patience for men who need to feel superior to women. She’s also done more for men then any mra I have ever come across.

    Myself? I give to two organizations. One is the John Howard foundation; the other is a live in treatment facility for high-risk youth. I realize that not everyone has the means to do what we do, but anyone can volunteer to pick up a ladle at your local men’s shelter

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  173. I do. Vulva's all over all the wonderful animals we have been called. So there's raven loons, raven leeches, raven cows, I'm also thinking a raven handbag with a witch hat on top and penises coming out the side of it. Any other's you can think of pam? David when you open your store my entire paycheck is going to go away from buying shirts

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  174. Nick wrote:

    But feminazitwats will always be shameless hypocritical two faced bigots to the end.

    But don't you DARE call him a misogynist.

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  175. Vagrant:

    I think the difference between men's reasonable fear of rape and women's reasonable fear of rape is that men really only need reasonably fear rape in certain narrowly circumscribed situations, prison being the most notable. For women the reasonable fear of being raped is present in a great variety of circumstances. This reasonable fear of being raped causes many women to limit their activities in ways that men simply do not have to do. Women who attempt to operate outside of their safe zone of activity--and who, like Ms. Logan are raped or sexually assaulted--are then condemned because "they should have known better." The fact that men have this de facto freedom to venture places women fear to tread is an example of male privilege. As with most forms of privilege, most men are blind to how privileged they are this area.

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  176. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  177. Captain Bathrobe said

    "As with most forms of privilege, most men are blind to how privileged they are this area."

    I don't understand how this is defined as privilege. This is just an another lame feminist excuse to further the poor poor persecuted female victim status.

    Just because there are nubjobs out there who rape, this has nothing to do with privilege for men what so ever. You dumbass feminuts make absolutely no sense. You will twist just about anything you can around to guise it as some kind of privilege for men. This is why I raise concern that feminism can turn into a disorder and a unhealthy obsession on many people these days.

    Men are just as likely to be a target of a violent crime when they are walking up a street alone at night. It happens to people at any gender and age.

    But with the same old lame old but but but most men are the offenders, when it comes to false DV and rape accusations and paternity fraud, women are the biggest offenders and males are far more likely the victims of all of this.

    So does that mean I can sit here and say that women are the most privileged gender in western societies?

    Of course not, that's silly just as it is with this ridiculous feminist stance displayed in this thread.

    Feminists will deny any female privilege to what I just mentioned but when women are more likely to be victims in certain areas; feminists change the rules when it comes to the assumptions on who is the most privileged gender.

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  178. Ah, Nick: same bullshit, different day.

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  179. Oh I am forgetting, females are likely to receive lighter sentences than males for the same crimes :P

    Privilege?

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  180. Hi Cpt. Bathrobe,

    Thanks very much for your reasonable response. At the risk of sounding confrontational, though (still waiting for Tri to show up), I must ask, where, exactly, can men tread *without* feeling threatened? No, as you said, it's less likely we'll be raped, but we can still get mugged, murdered, and all that. Many of the places women oughtn't go for fear of being raped (parties, dark alleys, etc.) are also places *I* wouldn't go as man--drunk frat boys may try to pick a fight with me at a party, muggers could try and knife me in a dark alley, and so on. While I suppose I can agree that women can be mugged, murdered, etc. *and* raped, while men like us can only be mugged and murdered, in terms of how much it is actually prudent for us to limit our activities I am not sure I see much difference.

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  181. Claiming men are privileged because they don't have to worry about rape is sort of like men claiming women are privileged because they don't have to worry about testicular cancer.

    Everyone has some advantage/disadvantage over someone else in a particular situation. Unless you are going to total all advantages and disadvantages and come up with some sort of total you cannot honestly claim some sort of societal privilege that is exceedingly in the favor of men.

    The privilege argument is one of the worst arguments that feminists claim, IMHO.

    Random Brother

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  182. @ thevagrantsvoice

    FYI,

    I have not disregarded the last post in which we interacted. I am rolling over some things out that you said.

    Random Brother

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  183. No problem at all, sir. Take all the time you need, no pressure. As you know, I'm just a wanderer, so don't worry about responding to me quickly, I'm definitely in no position to make anyone hurry, hehe :)

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  184. "Reality reflects something different."---Elizabeth

    Actually, I wish reality WAS different. And you obviously can't come up with anything because you 1) don't know what it is like for most men or 2) don't care.

    And as far as what I've gone through, you have no fucking clue.

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  185. vagrant, for one thing men can without a shadow of a doubt feel safe in their own homes. Women, because of the fact that 2/3 of all women who are raped are raped by someone they know and because 4 out of 10 of those crimes occur in their home, women cannot feel safe. So, it begs the question where can women feel safe? The answer is nowhere because our society fails to recognize rape as a crime, as is evident by nick and richard who refuse to show any sympathy for ms. logan.

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  186. Something about this privilege argument ...

    As a woman I try not to let fear affect my life, and to live as freely as a man would.

    I am told by some that this is dangerous. Why? Because I'm a woman.

    If I go out by myself and nothing happens, I'm told it's totally dangerous and I get to hear all the awful things that could have happened to me. People are shocked that I wouldn't go out in a group or have a male escort.

    If I were to go out by myself and be assaulted (sexually or not), I would be told I should have gone out with a group or with a male escort. That it was somehow my fault I was assaulted because there was no posse or man with me.

    If I were to go out with an escort and be RAPED by my escort (women are most likely to be raped by someone close to them), I would be told it was my fault for being alone with a man and trusting him. And the fun REALLY starts, because then I have to prove I was raped. So I'll be dragged over the coals, called a liar, perhaps lose any mutual friends, and so on. My clothing will be called into question, people will ask, "Well, why were you alone with him? You know what men are like!" and I will be told I shouldn't have "put myself in that situation." All for doing what everyone would say I was "supposed to do."

    Please tell me where the privilege is in this. In so many cultures women are restricted in this way. Daughters are given strict curfews while sons are allowed to roam free all night long.

    And then we're called man-haters for pointing this stuff out.

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  187. wytch, why is it that every single guy I know (that is a lot btw, I go to a science university where there is a 6 to 1 male to female ratio and the majority of my friends are guys) can read what you have written (and believe me they do, richard has become the butt of many many jokes at our dinner table) can disagree and say that what all of you say is just bullshit. Especially since the majority of them are far from being feminists.

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  188. @ briget

    briget said: "The answer is nowhere because our society fails to recognize rape as a crime, as is evident by nick and richard who refuse to show any sympathy for ms. logan."

    This statement alone shows how hysterical and ill informed you are.

    1. 'our soceity fails to recognize rape as a crime'

    Really? Then why are there laws against rape? Why are some men put in prison for rape when our society doens't recognize rape as a crime? What are the rapist put in prison, in prison for if our society doesn't recognize rape as a crime there genius? You shouldn't drink before you post it's embarrassing.

    2. Whether I show enough or any empathy for Ms. Logan will have no effect on what occurred to her, do you understand that? If you were smart you'd focus on what can be done in the future to help make reporters safer instead of worrying about who joined in the chorus or outrage.

    Random Brother

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  189. richard when 15 out of 16 rapists go free no our society doesn't treat rape as a crime

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  190. @ briget

    One more thing, you posted this: "wytch, why is it that every single guy I know (that is a lot btw, I go to a science university where there is a 6 to 1 male to female ratio and the majority of my friends are guys) can read what you have written (and believe me they do, richard has become the butt of many many jokes at our dinner table) can disagree and say that what all of you say is just bullshit. Especially since the majority of them are far from being feminists."

    It's either one of three things

    1. The want to fuck you and they fear saying something that gets your legs to close (there is a 6 to 1 ratio and they'd likely put up with your bullshit for that reason) or

    2. They're extremely stupid. Or

    3. They're gay and thus feminists.

    Random Brother

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  191. @ briget

    15 out of 16 my ass. You have NO proof of that.

    None.

    You may have some link to a study by lying feminists but you have NO government study proving that. Quit lying.

    Random Brother

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  192. RAINN takes their statistics from the DOJ aka the government btw
    http://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

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  193. oh and they actually deal with male victims here is the link to that.
    http://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/male-sexual-assault

    still want to call them lying feminists?

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  194. okay richard let me break it down for you
    1. considering that I actually know that only 2 of them are not seeing someone (whether that mean that they are in a relationship, married, or having casual sex with someone), that I've dated and had sex with 4 of them, and the 2 who are not seeing someone right now are not interested I don't think that it's one
    2. As I said, I go to a science university, I'm a sophomore, most of them are juniors and seniors. These are not stupid people. Most of them actually work for the government doing computer security work. so it can't be that
    3. Well a couple of them are gay, but that doesn't automatically make you a feminist. You can be a gay man because of your hatred for women or because you think women are disgusting so being gay and being a feminist are not the same thing.
    hmmm or option 4
    you are lying and/or delusional

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  195. @ briget

    And this is why I read the Spearhead. Everything you posted as evidence is refuted here

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/10/19/rape-realism/

    The "rape" statistic they get, they get in part by conflating rape and sexual assault, including verbal sexual assault, ie some asshole yelling something like "Hey baby, how about some of this cock!" Which while disgusting ISN'T rape. It's a gross inflation of the numbers to push their agenda. So 15 out of 16 rapists DO NOT go free. Sorry.

    So now that you've got the truth feel free to stop lying.

    Random Brother

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  196. Briget Said:

    "vagrant, for one thing men can without a shadow of a doubt feel safe in their own homes. Women, because of the fact that 2/3 of all women who are raped are raped by someone they know and because 4 out of 10 of those crimes occur in their home, women cannot feel safe. So, it begs the question where can women feel safe? The answer is nowhere because our society fails to recognize rape as a crime, as is evident by nick and richard who refuse to show any sympathy for ms. logan."

    So in other words, just because 2/3 of the minority of women who do get raped are raped in their home, that means all women are now validated to be misandrists and distrust the whole male population, even their close loved ones?

    This is an example how feminism is majorly a disorder on many feminists such as Briget. It brings this unjustified and discriminatory paranoia against men. Sure, keeping your guard up is one thing but the depths women like Briget go in is another. It's called misandry.

    If a man had the same level of paranoia and distrust towards women, he would be laughed at and deemed as a misogynistic social outcast.

    But feminists love their double standards and PRIVILEGE

    If feminists stopped being shameless hypocrites, I would truly take them more seriously.

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  197. okay hmm who am I going to believe when dealing with rape an MRA website which says that a reporter deserved to be raped for doing her job, or the DOJ who has a lot of interest in seeing that number be as small as possible. I think the answer is the DOJ.

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