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| Actually, there's no "me" in "assumption." |
1) That I am anti-male, or against rights for men. Nope! I'm a man. I like having rights. The same rights as women. I am opposed to the retrograde, self-described "Men's Rights Movement," which I think is a bad thing for men and women both.
2) That every post I make about an individual Men's Rights Activist or antifeminist is intended as a critique of the Men's Rights Movement as a whole. Nope! Not all feminists agree on everything; not all MRAs agree on everything. When I critique an individual, you should take that as a critique of that individual. Though sometimes the things these individuals think are things that lots of MRAs think, which brings us to to our next item in the list.
3) That every post I make that critiques ideas and attitudes that pervade the MRM is an attack on each and every MRA. Nope! However widespread these ideas and attitudes are, there are invariably MRAs who don't believe these things, and my critique obviously does not apply to them.
4) That because I am a feminist, I am somehow responsible for everything ever said or done by every other feminist. Nope! I am one dude. I am responsible for the things I say and do. I am not responsible for the things I do not say or do. The fact that some feminist thinks some thing does not necessarily mean that I think that thing. I might, I might not. (This applies more broadly: The fact that some feminist thinks some thing does not necessarily mean that all other feminists, or even most, or even many, think that thing.)
5) That I think women are pure as the driven snow and that men are all evil. Nope! I am aware, as every other human being I've ever meet is aware, that both men and women can do horrible, horrible things. Individual women abuse children, kill people, and screw over men and other women alike. They basically do every bad thing in the world that men do. You want to see how horrible some women can be? Watch the documentary Dear Zachary. It's on Netflix instant watch. It's really depressing. Still, there are areas in which men, on average, behave worse than women, on average. Men, for example, commit the overwhelming majority of violent crimes; they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of rapes. Acknowledging these facts is not the same as saying that all women are angels. They're not.
6) That I think every bad thing in the world is all the fault of men. See above.
7) That everything I post on this blog is a deadly serious indictment of the MRM. Nope! Sometimes I post stuff that relates more broadly to men's issues. Sometimes I make jokes. Sometimes I post odd pictures.
8) That I should immediately write a giant policy statement/rebuttal/manifesto on any given subject that any commenter brings up at any time. Nope! I have my own agenda, and I'm doing things on my own schedule. I may not think your pet issue is all that important. And even if I do, I may not get around to posting about it right away. There are a lot of important issues, and I'm one dude. If any of this makes you unhappy, well, you don't have to read this blog.
9) That I am interested in having unending discussions with people who misrepresent things I've said, or things other feminists have said, or who simply dismiss research conducted by feminists without even reading it. Nope!
10) That I really care what MRAs think of this blog. Nope! Put bluntly, this blog isn't for you. It's for all the people in the world who aren't you. Actually, that's not 100% true: If this blog convinces an MRA or two to stop being an MRA, that would be cool. I don't really expect that to happen, but, hey, I won't complain if it does. You're free to post comments here, like everyone else, but I'm not trying to win your approval.
"This is a note mainly intended for my MRA readers"
ReplyDelete"Put bluntly, this blog isn't for you."
So, this blog is not for MRAs, but this post is?
Hmmmmm.....
Without MRA readers, there would not be much in this blog that would be very interesting to anyone.
If you are critiquing that "movement," it would not be very interesting to read if they did not provide their input.
Sorry if this is a derail, but there just was nothing very interesting in between those two quotes.
-Jut
"3) That every post I make that critiques ideas and attitudes that pervade the MRM is an attack on each and every MRA. Nope! However widespread these ideas and attitudes are, there are invariably MRAs who don't believe these things, and my critique obviously does not apply to them."
ReplyDeleteSo in otherwords, you concede that your critique commits the fallacy of overwhelming exception? Nice.
"10) That I really care what MRAs think of this blog. Nope! Put bluntly, this blog isn't for you. It's for all the people in the world who aren't you."
Oh, so THAT'S why you left comments on The Spearhead with a link to this blog to make sure it would be discovered.
I take it that your motivation here is the fact that feminist magical thinking collapses when challenged in open debates, as is happening here everyday.
ReplyDeleteSo, essentially, what your mini manifesto (that you said you wouldn't write) can be summed up as:
ReplyDelete"If you don't agree with my and my agenda, piss off"
Actually, you didn't even need to clear that up.
David, I asked if you would do a piece about a real issue
ReplyDelete"I can tell you about the two little girls who witnessed their mother shoot their father as he slept, once in the groin and once in the head. It was shortly after the Lorena Bobbitt case and she claimed that the father had been sexually abusing the children. There was no evidence of it. The girls denied it. There were no reports to law enforcement or children’s services. She couldn’t even produce a single witness to testify that she had told anyone prior to killing the man. At her trial, she plead guilty to some lesser charge and got off with time served, a year in the county jail.
And the mother who shot and killed her husband while her daughters looked on? Her case was back in the system several years later.This time she had been sentenced to 25 years to life for the murder of her mother over money and having her new husband dispose of the body. He's serving 12-25 while the two girls and a new half-brother are in foster care.
Each and every one of the abusive parents in these cases had been abused as a child, whether it was physical, sexual, emotional, or neglect. This isn’t to say that all abuse victims grow up to become abusers. In fact, research suggests that it’s only a small percentage. But it is to say that a high percentage of abusers have been victims of abuse themselves.
This includes both domestic violence and child abuse. It also demonstrates that women can be just as abusive as men and points to flaws in our current system that neglect this fact, allowing and even perpetuating this “other abuse” that is said not to exist. We will not end (or even begin to address) the problems of domestic violence and child abuse until we learn to recognize that these are not gender specific problems and we address all perpetrators and treat all victims regardless of whether they are male or female".
http://thedamnedoldeman.com
So can you do a piece about something that the mens movement is really about? You say you are interested in genuine mens issues, I would say that turning a blind to serious domestic abuse is a serious human issue, even from a pure gynocentric/feminist perspective this is important because these abusive mothers the system turns a blind to, are creating our future abusers.
Also, the way you are misleading your small leadership is less than admirable.
Sigh. MRAs are free to post comments here all they want. But I have my own agenda, which is to reach people outside of the MRM, and my own timetable, which is why I don't instantly drop whatever I'm doing to run off and write about whatever you guys think I should be writing about. Especially since so many of you guys either don't read or don't understand what I have written, or simply misrepresent it.
ReplyDeleteEoghan's last comment here is a perfect example:
"So can you do a piece about something that the mens movement is really about? You say you are interested in genuine mens issues, I would say that turning a blind to serious domestic abuse is a serious human issue,"
I have actually written multiple posts and many thousands of words on DV in the past month. Other "genuine men's issues?" This week I've posted two substantive posts on prison rape. I've written about a case of anti-gay harassment (but, oh, that doesn't count because the man being harassed was gay). I posted a "further reading" post on false rape accusations. I will be posting about the gender gap in wages tomorrow. But somehow none of this counts because the conclusions I come to on these issues are different than yours.
Yes, when I started this blog I posted a handful of comments on MRA blogs alerting them to particular posts of mine. So sue me. The only comments I've posted on MRA blogs lately have been responses to blatant misrepresentation of things I've written.
David, you have written any genuine pieces here.
ReplyDeleteIts all about trying to maintain the status quo and othering/dismissing politically incorrect victims and issues on ideological grounds.
Gay bashing is a problem but its taken seriously as the post you made about it demonstrates, there are other male issues that a much more serious, hidden sexual abuse and protected abusers for example.
OK, clearly, you are rational.
ReplyDeleteGood.
However, wouldn't you agree that many laws in our culture our biased towards men?
Like say V.A.W.A.? Rape Shield Laws (rights of the accused)? Affirmative action?
Don't women convicted of crimes get lesser jail sentences than men?
Shouldn't such laws be changed?
Is feminism responsible for getting those laws to be equal?
Or is feminism responsible for those laws existing in the first place?
If that is the case - how can you call yourself a feminist - and at the same time, say that you support the rights of men too?
Can you give me some examples of feminists who believe that women should have to register for the draft?
Are they the MAJORITY of feminists - or an extreme minority?
Why do feminists (the majority of them), believe that violence aimed at women should be a greater crime than violence aimed at men?
Is that equality?
"Yes, when I started this blog I posted a handful of comments on MRA blogs alerting them to particular posts of mine. So sue me."
ReplyDeleteYou're not going to get sued for that, but you may very well face a libel suit before long.
"Especially since so many of you guys either don't read or don't understand what I have written, or simply misrepresent it. "
ReplyDelete- Quite fucking true. All the MRAs trolls basically misdirect and produce straw arguments and even if you take the time to provide ample evidence to the contrary to debunk their BS, they don't bother reading over it and then, the very next post they're using the same anti-feminist meme yet again.
Projecting much, Tec?
ReplyDeleteLOL!! I can imagine how it would get MRA's dander up if feminists posted to their blogs, insisting that they write pieces about what's really important ("and here, I'll tell you what the really important stuff is...") and demanding that they respond to [list of questions].
ReplyDeletePaul, since you've banned me from your comments section, and, well, you know the rest, you are banned from mine. So away goes your comment.
ReplyDeleteDamn, I'm sure it was a great comment too.
ReplyDeleteWell Pam,
ReplyDeleteThere are very serious issues, outside of the catholic church I cant think of a western ism or system that deliberately keeps abuse victims down, that would seem to be a serious issue. People like yourself and David, that take part and obvious delight in this situation with your ridiculing of those that advocate against this sick system are the moral low ground here.
lol @ Tec mapping the characteristics of her own debating style onto others.
ReplyDelete@ David,
ReplyDelete1. You are anti male. And you are anti male rights. Describing the rights that men have/had and you don't like as retro grade doesn't make you somehow pro men. You, IMHO, would rather have women like you than be concerned about the legal ramifications of your own and other men's disenfranchisement.
2. That's not how it reads.
3. You, to the best of my knowledge have never come up with one good thing the MRM stands for so, I take and will continue to take your criticism as an attack on all of us.
10. Without MRA'S your blog would likely have 4 - 9 people reading/commenting on it tops. Quit biting the hands that feed you.
Random Brother
This blog is anti-male.
ReplyDeleteWhat else can you say about a blog, which considers any MRA-blog/forum as 'enemy'?
It's the 'enemy'. Regardless what is written in these 'enemy' webpages. Even if these webpages are written by a woman.
It's really childish to presume, that all articles within MRA-forums/blogs are showing up solely with wrong information, and only feminists are the men's true friends.
"That I really care what MRAs think of this blog. Nope! Put bluntly, this blog isn't for you. It's for all the people in the world who aren't you."
ReplyDeleteIf that were true, you would not have written this post at all. You would have been content to deal with the views people have of you and move on or address them as came up.
David, I'm going to be a bit unfair here. No, MASSIVELY unfair. but... when reading this blog and some other feminist blogs I feel like there is a tendency among the feminist movement to be negative, cynical and snarky. Despite what some people think, cynicism and negativity does not make for easier or funner reading. Actually, it gives me the feeling that the author of the piece is biased and unfairly dumping on everything within sight.
ReplyDeleteHow does this apply to this blog? Well, for one, I think this atmosphere makes the blog feel like some kind of crossfire-esque kabuki theatre of fake conflict. I know it as fact that you haven't converted any MRAs to anything, just as you won't be converting to MRA activism anytime soon. I feel like you could spend your time more productively arguing with 15 year olds on youtube over the existence (or nonexistence) of god. Moreover, I think that MRAs and Feminists are actually hurting gender dialogue when they decide to participate in this crap.
I read your recent post on hypergamy. I was thoroughly unimpressed. You know why? Because I feel like the more you try to refute that stupid misogynistic argument, the more the other side will make it. You know why? Because really, you guys have stopped arguing in good faith a long time ago. Now its just a verbal pissing match where one side tries to make the other more angry by outdoing the other's bravado. The classic signs are there:
"I already refuted your argument"
"Misogny! Misandry!"
"The statistics back me up. Your statistics are lying"
Anyway, here's to hoping that some neanderthal eventually figures out that if both feminists and mras pooled their resources that a lot more could get done. Hell, maybe people could have a discussioun about rape that focused less on wishful thinking, and more on mutually acceptable standards, such as:
"What balance should we strike between protecting an accuser of rape and the accused? Is it acceptable to stigmatize the accused, the accuser, both, or none?"
or
"What are some forensic measures that we could take to improve prosecution of rapes? What new legal standards could we enact that would respect the defendant's right to a free trial, but still aggressively prosecute the crime?"
Finally, maybe when all of you jackoffs are done talking about that, you could agree on something else. I've seen enough feminists agree that one sided selective service is benevolent sexism, so I'm sure both the MRAs and feminists could reach some kind of agreement on the issue of military service.
tl;dr
I'm thinking of starting a blog called "Shit that matters." I'd end up spending all my time talking about shit that matters instead of who is getting herpes or who is being a bigger meanie head on capitol hill, or who is more fascist/communist. Fuck, someone hand me my screambox. The internet is getting more and more like 4chan/the idiocracy every day.
Well, you're certainly free to start your own blog.
ReplyDeleteFeminists = Closet Racist and Xenophobes
ReplyDeleteI will thank you David Frutrelle for giving me hours of entertainment and a permanent link on the sidebar to all the MRA sites I like to read.
ReplyDeleteYour first assertion is not true. If you are feminist, you do not believe in your own reproductive rights and choices (Your only choice is to keep your pants on, unless you are not raped-then you have no choice at all). You do not believe you have the right to your own body (the draft). You do not believe in your right to earn a good salary for your work and sacrifice(the wage gap myth.)You do not believe you have the right to the best medical care (women's health issues make up 80% of all medical research, even though more taxes are paid by men, and feminists as a movement think they need more.)
ReplyDeleteFeminism had its place in western society a long time ago. Today there is not a single way women are oppressed in the US that is socially acceptable or condoned. Women are the recipients of the most money spent in nearly every faction of the government, from health care to education to research to welfare. Women have more voting power, more spending power, more influence in the political sphere. It may be mostly men in the top positions, but those men are acting on behalf of women's wishes (the most cohesive and largest voting block.) Yet feminists think we need more.
As a modern western white woman, I am among the most safe and privilaged people in the world. As a modern american white man, you are among the group most quickly losing their rights and status. Give yourself another 10-20 years. You will not be saying the same things with the same smugness. That is why I am an MRA-I have two sons who have to deal with this stuff, and it will not get any easier.
BTW, while men commit more crimes, men are also overwhelmingly the victims of most crimes. Both assault and murder, 2/3 and 3/4 of victims are men. 93% of workplace deaths are men. So men being violent does not necessarily mean the average woman is in any danger at all. The fact that women live 6 years longer on average than men show this.
I haven't gotten past number one yet, so maybe tomorrow I can read number two.
Dave Futrelle plays "The Emperor's New Clothes" with us. Pay no attention to the obvious cheeky crap, and keep your eye on the double-talk misdirection.
ReplyDeleteI'll take your advice Dave and start a blog or two devoted to you.
Seriously Daveyboy, you expect us to think you are neutral and broad-minded? You also expect us to believe this blog is not a joint effort between you and a number of feminists?
ReplyDeleteGet a life, or at least a hobby.
When did he ever make a claim to neutrality?
ReplyDelete@Johnny:
ReplyDeleteRead items 1-3 in the article above. Read and ponder. LMAO!
@ Yohan 11/12/10
ReplyDelete"This blog is anti-male.
"What else can you say about a blog, which considers any MRA-blog/forum as 'enemy'?"
The MRA agenda is by and large, as David said, retrograde.
retrograde: adj. moving backward; having a backward motion or direction; retiring or retreating.
If it's anti-male not to be backward, you may consider me an anti-man.
I think you're lovely, David. I'm sorry there are so many jackasses in the world. It makes me so upset to read these comments - people are obviously missing the point. You, however, are inspiringly persistant and clear.
ReplyDeleteI think what you're doing here is very important and, while I don't always agree with everything you say (I've been lurking for a while), I admire your patience with the MRAs.
Thanks,
Stephanie
To David:
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say, as an ordinary guy who has no particular axe to grind, that I really feel sorry for you having to wade through some of the dumbass comments your blog seems to invariably attract, and I envy your patience. But I guess you just have to remember one of the key rules of comedy - of which poking fun at extremists is quite clearly part - namely, if no-one's mad at you, you're not doing it right. Clearly you're doing it right. Keep up the good work!
To all the MRA twats commenting here:
Man up. Just because someone's making fun of something you love doesn't mean he's evil, nor does it necessarily mean he hates you or your ideals. Every movement, no matter how noble it may be, attracts dumbshits, and dumbshits always deserve to be mocked. If you're really serious about being a strong, independent man, stop being a fucking baby whenever anyone pokes a little fun.
Oh MRA trolls, proving the point! lol
ReplyDelete