Tuesday, April 5, 2011

Non-haters gonna non-hate: NiceGuy Edition

From NiceGuy's MGTOW forum.
Once upon a time one of the guys over at NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum set up a little poll asking his fellow “nice guys” whether or not they actually consider themselves to be misogynists; it’s been up there for years, and the site’s resident MGTOWers have been adding votes and comments all along.  The wording of the poll is sufficiently, ah, flexible enough to give respondents a lot of ways to wiggle out of saying explicitly that they really were misogynists:

* I despise the entire female sex. Period.
* I hate only "western" women.
* I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism.
* I just blame feminists.
* I don't hate women; I just don't like being around them.
* I have no animosity towards women of any group. I'm only here to learn more about MRAs.

Still, given the amount of angry and explicit and completely straightforward misogyny you can find in the forms there, which after all are an outgrowth of a site devoted to the notion that "American women suck," I’m a little bit surprised by how many of the regulars claim not to hate women – as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means. 

Conveniently, though, many of those who voted in the poll also posted comments explaining their, er, reasoning. And it’s pretty clear that they have a radically different definition of hate than, you know, the dictionary, and/or what everyone else in the world means when they use the word hate. 

Here are some of the comments from guys there who say that they aren’t misogynist. Again, just to make myself clear: these are entirely NON-HATEFUL comments from those who say they DON’T hate women.

Let's start with the completely non-hateful non-hater who calls himself Alpha:
  
I'm not one who hates ... I find that I don't enjoy the company of women very much, as they tend to talk about things I really don't give a crap about. Besides, they really wouldn't like to hear what comes out of my mouth since, if I were to really say what I thought around them without restraint, they would go into knee-jerk, defensive mode. They've been so conditioned to fight and argue with what is simply, to me, a male point of view on things. It's like being around children. ..

I will say this, I love ladies, the female equivalent of a gentleman, a gentlewoman. Unfortunately, that's a rare breed these days. What we have are a bunch of emotionally immature, emotionally unrestrained, emotionally violent, toxic, unappreciative, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-serving, unempathetic, exploitive, arrested adolescents with vaginas, bad attitudes, and an incredible amount of contempt.

Now, I don't mind holding my tongue around ladies. But the moment women declared themselves equal to men, they opened the door to being talked to as men.

And here is committed non-misogynist Zaku:

I voted: "I don't hate women; I just don't like being around them."

Mostly because they have nothing to offer other than whining usually. …

When women talk they make me "ZZZ".
Tiny kitties are honest about their hatreds.
In a followup comment Zaku offered this, well, revealing take on sex with women: 

Maybe it's because I've only done american chicks but to be blunt having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn't join in and you can hardly tell the difference.
There is something I would dearly like to tell young Zaku at this point but I really can’t think of a delicate way to put it. Hmm. I’ll do it the Dear Abby way. 
  
CONFIDENTIAL TO Z--- on N—G—‘sM---- F---- : You may be doing it wrong. 
 
Our friend MarkyMark popped in to offer his two cents: 

I don't hate women, but, after working with a bunch of them and seeing their true colors, I don't care to be around them. I don't hate sewers, either; I just don't care to spend time in them..
Now if this were anyone but our friend MarkyMark making this comment, I would assume he was making a little joke here. But as far as I have been able to determine, MarkyMark does not actually have a sense of humor. This is, after all, a guy who once devoted a blog post to rebutting, point by point, an article in The Onion. Joke or no, I think we can all agree it's 1) not actually, you know, funny and 2) kind of a douchey thing to say.

Djc added this utterly non-misogynistic comment to the pile: 

I can't stand to be around them for too long. It's not hatred. I just can't stand stupid people. Male, or female. And there is no question most American females are dripping with delusions, which in my book makes them stupid. And I'm at a point where women have nothing I really need. So it's a complete waste of my time to even talk to one
And then there is this, from strigoi:

i merely hate feminists, those women who latch onto sexism and how it has infected most of society. I aim for the cancer at the heart of the problem, they are the ones that need to be hanged.
I guess technically, that’s not misogyny. But I don't think I'll be inviting this guy over for dinner any time soon.

-- 

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the "Share This" or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it. 

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

243 comments:

  1. What I learned from this:

    It's somewhat socially unacceptable to admit to hating women.

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  2. What I learned from this: feminists are more devious about their misandry than MRAs are about their misogyny. Feminists very very rarely admit to hating men and yet their discourse is full of invective against men. Clever. That's why they are more dominant in our media/culture.

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  3. "as you can see from the graphic above, the most popular answer is the one about “feminists and women who take advantage of sexism,” whatever that means."

    Yeah, I'm sure you have no idea whatsoever what that could possibly mean.

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  4. "What I learned from this: feminists are more devious about their misandry than MRAs are about their misogyny."

    No, they're not. Feminist hatred is simply obfuscated by the media and academia.

    "Feminists very very rarely admit to hating men"

    Maybe not to the "outside world". It's a given amongst themselves. Have you ever visited a feminist website? This one, for instance?

    "That's why they are more dominant in our media/culture."

    Nope. They are dominant in our culture because those in power want them to be dominant.

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  5. Once again, the challenge stands: show us similar material coming from comparable feminist sources. Feminist discourse is full of rhetoric against men? O.K., back that up with evidence. Or are they too devious?

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  6. Eoghan said...

    Beep! beep! its the thought police!


    I know! How dare Dave criticize people's ideas by quoting them accurately! He's devious, I tell you!

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  7. I know! How dare Dave criticize people's ideas by quoting them accurately! He's devious, I tell you!

    David is censoring them by criticizing their thoughts, Captain! The First Amendment clearly states that you have a right to be free from anyone disparaging your opinions.

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  8. Hate is a pretty powerful word. Like I tell my kids, you dont go around saying you love a whole group of people so why would use the word hate for a whole group. In our house we rarely, if ever, use it. Seeing as I love my Mom its impossible to say I hate feminists in general, afterall she is the first feminist I came to know.

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  9. I always thought the women who take advantage of sexism are people like Sarah Palin. She complains about the way people treat her as a woman while at the same time inviting such treatment. And then complains when feminists (whom she opposes) do not defend her.

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  10. OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ GO!

    So all the sex you've had with women, Zaku, has vaguely resembled fucking a moist pillow. I understand and empathize with your sadness about your sex life. However, young padawan, there are methods of solving this.

    --Are all of your partners virgins or in high school? Virgins and high schoolers are terrible at sex, particularly if both are inexperienced. I personally was on my third partner before I was any good in bed.
    FIX: Find your local cougar, slut or sexually assertive woman.
    --Was your partner someone with sexual hang-ups? Slut-shaming often makes women think that enthusiasm makes them "bad girls", and ideas of men-earning-sex often make women think that lying there is their contribution to sex.
    FIX: Have sex with feminists.
    --Are you simply not that good in bed? This is a common problem among inexperienced men, and can lead to women not enjoying sex because it is not that enjoyable.
    FIX: Learn the location of the clit (with an anatomy chart, if necessary). Listen to her instructions about sex. If she's moaning, KEEP DOING THAT. Try to give her at least one orgasm before you stick your dick in (be reasonable, if she's begging "stick it in me", go ahead, but it's a good guideline). Suck it up about the taste and learn to love eating pussy. Make sure you give her adequate foreplay (AT LEAST five minutes). Touch and kiss parts of her besides her breasts and pussy. Most of all, confidence and joy, confidence and joy.
    --Was your partner very, very drunk? Bad sign. Sober people participate more.
    FIX: If she's passed out or puking, don't fuck her.
    --Was your partner freezing up, softly repeating "no, no, no", or otherwise clearly not enjoying herself? Then you may have had what is technically referred to as "nonconsensual sex," or by us Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington, "rape."
    FIX: Seek affirmative, enthusiastic consent. This is shown by her, for example, ripping off your clothes, chanting "yes", sucking your cock without being asked, etc. If you are confused if she is consenting, feel free to ask "do you want to (have sex, make out, have me suck your tits, etc.)?" If you hear words like "no" and "stop," STOP IMMEDIATELY.

    OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ OVER.

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  11. thank you ozymandias. You could not have explained it better.

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  12. oh as an additive to oxy's advice about oral, use a dental dam! it solves the problem of the taste and it keeps both of you from getting STD's. Safe sex FTW!

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  13. Once again, the challenge stands: show us similar material coming from comparable feminist sources. Feminist discourse is full of rhetoric against men? O.K., back that up with evidence. Or are they too devious?

    That is the very essence of feminist deviousness! Not saying anything particularly wrong! Damn those wily feminists!

    It's telling that less than 5% went with, "I have no animosity towards women of any group. I'm just here to learn more about MRAs." So, basically, about 5% of them are genuinely interested in men's rights, and the other 95% are there for the woman-hating. Based on my experience, those numbers sound about right. (And even a lot of the guys in the 5% are sexist "traditional values" types. They just don't actually hate women.)

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  14. I just discovered your blog yesterday, and wow, it's completely hilarious! I'm seriously impressed with how funny your writing style is, and I love that you don't filter the comments so these people show up and say more stupid things after the fact. It's pretty fantastic :D

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  15. "I do not avoid women, Mandrake . . . but I do deny them my essence."

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  16. That kitty image made me think of the old onion headline "Kitten thinks of nothing but murder all day."

    The people I have had sex with have primarily been American and the majority have been women, yet I have never had a sexual experience so bad as this: " is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn't join in and you can hardly tell the difference" not even as a virgin highschooler (of course, my first time was with a sexually experienced lesbian...) Also, I rather enjoy the taste of pussy. Dental dams are a bit of a downer for me. Seriously, pussy trumps latex hands down in a taste test every time.

    In other news, apparantly those over at nice-guy are liars as well as haters, but rather bad liars.

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  17. Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington

    That's either going to be the name of my band or the title of my first book.

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  18. Also, allow me to add my voice to the others here and say: brava, OZ!

    If neither of you is enjoying it, then at least one of you is doing it wrong. Practice, practice, practice,...not to mention communication and enthusiastic consent.

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  19. Oz, would you mind if I borrowed your tips and used them in a post, credited to you of course?

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  20. These guys are going to be in for a big disappointment when they finally get their sexbots, and find out it's even more like humping a moist pillow.

    Um, so I hear.

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  21. Thanks so much, everybody. :)

    That would be really awesome, David. You might want to include briget's comment about dental dams, though; I've never used them myself or met someone who used them, but more awareness of safer sex is always a good idea.

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  22. oh as an additive to oxy's advice about oral, use a dental dam! it solves the problem of the taste and it keeps both of you from getting STD's. Safe sex FTW!

    But I like the taste of pussy...

    "I do not avoid women, Mandrake . . . but I do deny them my essence."

    That is my favorite movie.

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  23. dark side cat my bf and I use condoms and dams that are non-latex and then use flavored lube on them. The polyisopropelene on it's own really has no flavor so then you can add whatever flavored lube that you like. It works well for us at least

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  24. trip, more power to you then :) I'm just providing an alternative to suck it up and deal, that's all.

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  25. "I only hate feminists and women who take advantage of sexism."
    MRA to English translation:
    "I only hate women that might refuse to have sex with me."

    Oh, and it's official: Ozymandias has won the internet. Congratulations.

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  26. Nope. They are dominant in our culture because those in power want them to be dominant.

    John Boehner: feminist enabler. Who knew? He certainly hides it well.

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  27. See, now, this is why I visit this site: the joy of mocking the eminently mockable.

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  28. This poll reminds me kind of the Lisak study on rape... "I didn't rape her, I just got her drunk and then held her down and had sex with her," "I don't hate women, it's just that women are terrible people."

    And if all the partners you've had have been awful partners who haven't been turned on in the slightest.... well, the common denominator in all those encounters is *you*. I actually feel kind of sorry for that guy. Maybe if we had comprehensive sex education in high school, instead of the abstinence-only crap, he'd have learned some more positive things about sex.

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  29. Actually, I've been reliably informed that "OOOP! OOOOOP!" is tha sound of tha police. That's what Beanie Sigel says, anyway.

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  30. To reiterate something I said before, but in a better way:

    "I don't hate black people. I just think they're mostly lazy violent criminals."

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  31. @Ozymandias...dude you've covered all the bases in this one post.

    1st)The inexperienced idoit..."I understand and empathize with your sadness about your sex life. However, young padawan, there are methods of solving this."

    2nd) The mockery..."Are you simply not that good in bed?"

    3rd) The ineptitude..."Learn the location of the clit,This is a common problem among inexperienced men"

    4th) The subservient moron..."Listen to her instructions about sex."

    5th) The total failure..."Try to give her at least one orgasm"

    Oh you covered most of the basic shaming tactics already but lets move on to rayyyyyyype.
    "Was your partner freezing up, softly repeating "no, no, no", or otherwise clearly not enjoying herself? Then you may have had what is technically referred to as "nonconsensual sex," or by us Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington, "rape."

    Because no total mockery of someone is complete without a rape accusation.

    Yea that sounds like a whizbang good time alrighty...May I touch your left breast? May I touch your thigh? Are you enthusiasticly consenting? Awaiting your instruction? Did that no mean no or no don't stop? Am I raping you?

    That post is definitely worth a spot on feminisite, they will eat that shit up. Although you used the word, "slut" therefore slut shaming. Unfortunately you let you white male misogynist privilege show. Fail.

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  32. Wait, listening to a woman tell you what turns her on is being a subservient moron?

    Here I thought it was being a considerate and attentive lover.

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  33. I have yet to hear anyone ask what turns a man on, or is all about you.

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  34. NWOslave, I guess you've never read Cosmo then.

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  35. HAHAHAHA, no I haven't. I actually did laugh when I read that, thx.

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  36. ... or any other woman's magazine. Those things have hundreds of pages of advice on how to appeal to men, please men, make men feel good about themselves, increase men's enjoyment in bed, and so forth and so on, but little, if any, space devoted to what men can do for women or how women can learn to better enjoy themselves. Because those articles are all written by evil feminists who hate men for evil feminists who hate men.

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  37. @Amused...Oh yes all those fine articles I'm sure are quite helpful. Women asking women what men like.

    I'll give you the best peice of advice you'll ever get. Those rags are trash, there only use is to line a bird cage.

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  38. Whoa, Cosmo give useless advice??? Knock me over with a feather!

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  39. @Amused...Oh yes all those fine articles I'm sure are quite helpful. Women asking women what men like.

    Oh, so no blowjobs then. Interesting. You mean the articles in Cosmo are unlike all those articles in which men counsel other men to ignore what women like and tell them that being considerate towards one's lover's wishes is tantamount to being a "subservient moron", articles that tell men that they can't enjoy sex if the bitch also enjoys it? I'd give you advice too, NWO, but since I'm a girl you ain't gonna listen. Suffice it to say, those articles aren't even worthy to line a bird cage. Then again, some people want to enjoy sex and others derive more pleasure from whining about how much they aren't enjoying it, so I suppose to each his own.

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  40. @Ozymandias...dude you've covered all the bases in this one post.

    Well, dude, if the shoe fits ... sorry. Here is a thought: if you don't want to be shamed, stop shaming yourself.

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  41. First of all there are no men advice mags or columns. Go to the store and look, mens magazines are sports and hobbies.

    No one needs a book. Are you kidding me?

    I just stop over boobzyboys pathetic site once in a while to see how low he can go. As always he never fails. The truely pathetic part about that worthless piece of flotsom is how he actually picks out individual people, (private citizens) and you all join in on the ginsu slice and dice bandwagon. It's like mob mentality out here.

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  42. I'm wondering if he thinks Oz is a dude.

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  43. Yea that sounds like a whizbang good time alrighty...May I touch your left breast? May I touch your thigh? Are you enthusiasticly consenting? Awaiting your instruction? Did that no mean no or no don't stop? Am I raping you?

    You've got a point. The moist-pillow-humping approach definitely sounds like tons more fun.

    I'd mention my suspicions that the "humping a moist pillow" guy probably also suffers from the tendency of women's breasts to feel like bags of sand, but it might be shaming, so I won't.

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  44. First of all there are no men advice mags or columns. Go to the store and look, mens magazines are sports and hobbies.

    No one needs a book. Are you kidding me?


    Well -- doesn't that suggest, at least that women care about what pleases their mates (even if the practical advice is wrong), while men don't?

    I just stop over boobzyboys pathetic site once in a while to see how low he can go. As always he never fails. The truely pathetic part about that worthless piece of flotsom is how he actually picks out individual people, (private citizens) and you all join in on the ginsu slice and dice bandwagon. It's like mob mentality out here.

    Yes, David (a non-private citizen and a non-individual in your book, I suppose) is being "pathetic" by repeating those men's statements, whereas the men he quotes aren't being pathetic when they say stupid and hateful shit. Gotcha.

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  45. @shaenon...Oh and you couldn't tell what he meant by humping a moist pillow was, not participating. Apparently that wasn't covered in all those fine mags you recommend.

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  46. NWO, maybe it's because shocking, most feminists know how to please their partner (hint it's called asking the person you are with hello) so we don't need to have that conversation over and over again? But thanks for playing

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  47. NWOSlave, this is my advice to straight men. You haven't seen my advice to straight women on being good in bed. Oddly enough, most of the same advice applies (learn to love oral, enthusiastic consent, don't fuck drunk people) with a few differences of anatomy (NO TEETH).

    I wasn't mocking him for being bad in bed! Everyone's bad in bed their first time, or even their first couple of times, or more if their partners aren't good. You're bad at anything your first couple of times. But it's totally fixable, and it's usually things as stupid as not knowing where the clit is.

    Am I the only person who is weirded out by MRAs who can't tell the difference between enthusiastic consent and a lease agreement? I mean, yes, you should ask about it if someone says no! If you're wrong, then it's a little awkward, and if you're right, then you just managed to not rape someone. Gold star for you!

    I mean, who DOESN'T ask "wanna blowjob?" before they start sucking cock? I know I'm the Queen Femicunt of Bitchqueen Valley, but still.

    I... am fairly certain he is inexperienced? Otherwise he would have hit upon someone good in bed by sheer accident, and she would have told him this shit.

    P.S. My use of the word slut is Advanced Feminism, known as "reclaiming" the word, removing it of its power by using it as a value-neutral term, in this case to describe women who have a lot of sex. c.f. the Toronto Slutwalk.

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  48. @NWOslave

    Oh noes! Ozymandias is implying that sex is something people have to learn to be good at, as opposed to assuming that men are just born SEX!MASTAHS!! and women who don't enjoy a particular experience (or even women who bother to care about enjoying it) are just brainwashed by feminism! We can't have that.
    /sarcasm

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  49. @Amused...Oh yes all those fine articles I'm sure are quite helpful. Women asking women what men like.

    Be that as it may, it doesn't negate the fact that women are asking what turns a man on, and that magazines devote hundreds of pages to advice for women about what turns men on, how to please men, etc.

    First of all there are no men advice mags or columns. Go to the store and look, mens magazines are sports and hobbies.

    No one needs a book. Are you kidding me?


    You're right, because it would only take a couple of lnes in a men's magazine to say:

    Q: How do you give a woman an orgasm?
    A: Who cares??!!

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  50. NWOSlave: Women should participate in sex! If you are a woman who just lies there, you should stop doing that then. But if all your female partners just lie there... as they say, the only thing all your failed relationships have in common is you.

    Captain Bathrobe: I mean, I am female-bodied and genderqueer, so... he's kind of right? By accident?

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  51. Woman to friend: "I don't know what's going on with Boyfriend, he only lies there like a moist pillow when I try to have sex with him."

    Friend: "Have you tried asking him what turns him on?"

    Woman: "But that would just make me a subservient moron!"

    Newsflash, NWOslave: I don't give a shit about what turns you on, because the mere thought of fucking someone with as ugly a personality as yours makes my labia shrivel. When I'm with someone I find attractive however, yes, of course I ask - that's assuming my partner hasn't already volunteered what he likes.

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  52. @Amused...Please I alaways read the articles and comments for months before posting on a site.

    If this sleeze wrote an article saying homeless men were really lazy bums who only lay in gutters so they could look up girls skirts, everyone of you would be screaming misogynist.

    You can't wait for whatever tripe he puts up tommorow so you join in the shaming fun. Everyone here is so damn righteous. I've never seen one of you ever admit to, here it comes............being wrong.

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  53. NWO: So, let's summarize your position here. First, you are peeved that no one is supposedly asking what men want in bed. Second, you are peeved that women DO care about what men want in bed, and declare that women discussing this with other women (never mind that such advice articles are almost always authored by men) is "trash". Third, you proudly proclaim that men don't care about what women want in bed, because who needs to worry about that when there's sports to talk about?

    Dude ... you are all over the place. Can you, like, pick a baseline for yourself in this discussion? Or are you going to continue to contradict yourself, lashing out at women for anything and everything? Should people care about what their lovers want? Are you claiming that men's sexual pleasure isn't properly attended to in our society, or it is attended too a bit too much, or what? Is it okay for men to care about pleasing women in bed, or is that emasculating?

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  54. Oh c'mon Lady Victoria von Syrus you can do better than that. Not only does my personality suck, I must have a small dick, I can't get laid, I'm a loser, I have no ambition, I'm poor, I'm unkempt, I have bad eating habits, I'm obviosly a misogynist, I have mommy issue's. I ejaculate prematurely, I'm selfish.

    Isn't that what you do out here, play the strawman game?

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  55. OOOH, EVERYONE! It's time for the Ozy Admits She's Wrong Show!

    Ozy used to be kinda transphobic... but she was wrong!
    Ozy used to think feminism wasn't that relevant anymore... but she was wrong!
    Ozy used to not think about classism or racism ever... but she was wrong!
    Ozy used to think Fight Club was misogynistic... but she was wrong!
    Ozy used to think the radfems didn't have a point... but she was wrong!

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  56. I've mocked none of you but all of you decided it was your "right" to belittle me in every way possible.

    Is that what a feminist looks like???

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  57. so therefore NWOSlave, you have just seen someone admit she was wrong on this site!

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  58. So heartfelt Ozyy I really feel it. Another feminist trait perhaps, never having to say your sorry?

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  59. NWO: If I happen to be wrong, I admit it. If I don't, then I won't. Incidentally, show me an MRA admit that he's wrong about something.

    If this sleeze wrote an article saying homeless men were really lazy bums who only lay in gutters so they could look up girls skirts, everyone of you would be screaming misogynist.

    Actually, many homeless men, if not the majority, are homeless in a large part because they suffer from mental illness. Are you saying MRA-ism is like homelessness, linked to mental illness?

    You can't wait for whatever tripe he puts up tommorow so you join in the shaming fun.

    But he doesn't write this tripe. YOU, MRA's and miggytows, write this tripe. And if this tripe MRA's and miggytows write is a source of shame for them, aren't they the ones primarily responsible?

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  60. I've mocked none of you but all of you decided it was your "right" to belittle me in every way possible.

    Oh ... you mean you were the one who made the "moist pillow" comment?

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  61. Yes stick up for trannys and radfems and all that other good stuff. Fuck men though, cause were privileged right?

    Look around you sometimes see whose the sewerworkers are or the garbagemen or all those yukky dirty filthy manual laborers. Oh thats right there the lowlifes you can do better than.

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  62. NWOSlave: I say I'm sorry all the time. It is my firm opinion that if you never have to apologize for violating your principles, your principles aren't high enough.

    And also, dude, there are rules here. Don't comment on a MRA site as a feminist unless you want to be called a weepy little mangina bitch, and don't comment on Manboobz as a MRA unless you want people to point out every flaw in your argument and persona in great detail.

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  63. And look at the tripe written here amused. This is soooo much better is it?

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  64. As manboobz has shown you, excellent. No room for free thinker here.

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  65. I used to be Mormon. It doesn't get much wrong-er than that, especially because I was a holier-than-thou, know-it-all, Jesus-loves-you-you-filthy-sinner kind of Mormon. I was too young to vote for Prop 22 ('marriage protection' amendment in California almost ten years ago), but I would have if I was able. Instead, I persuaded some of my older friends to vote for it. I made up for it by campaigning hard for marriage equality when Prop 8 rolled around.

    @NWO: The only one of those insults that I will agree with is that you do, in fact, seem like a selfish asshole.

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  66. Ozy, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so...

    Amnesia used to be homophobic... but she was wrong!
    Amnesia used to think visiting graveyards actually killed people... but she was wrong!
    Amnesia used to think black people couldn't make good music... but she was wrong!
    Amnesia used to blame the political left for bad government... but she was wrong!
    Amnesia used to be a big fan of Scott Adams... but she was wrong!

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  67. NWOSlave: Classism is one of the three major axes of oppression, the other two being racism and sexism. Most feminist blogs argue for the end of all three.

    DUDE. Tranny is a slur. Use "trans," "transsexual" or "transgender." You wouldn't call a black person a nigger, or a developmentally disabled person a retard, don't call a trans person a tranny.

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  68. My arguements have not been flawed. Whats done here is exactly what I've said. There are only two types of posts on this site.

    1)Slice and dice a particular person.
    2)strawman arguement.

    There is absolutely no articles of any value discussing any pertinant issue.

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  69. @Ozymandias...They do not argue against sexism, unless it pertains to women.

    Examples. Men have no reproductive rights. Men are treated like absolute garbage in divorce court. Title IX, Affirmative Action, Quota's, and a myriad of laws give women an unfair advantage in education and employment, by law.
    Women recieve 1/2 the sentence of men for the same crime.

    And don't tell me men have power because they do NOT. I don't even know anyone who makes a 6 figure salary. No one I know isn't treading water just to stay afloat. I have NO POWER.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Yea and here a classic example of your fucking caring, 100 million men in this country barely making ends meet and your biggest concern is mispronouncing fucking tranny.

    Oh damn I might hurt the poor fucking trannys feelings, well stop the planet and let me off.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I have long been an supporter of the notion that "patriarchy hurts men too." That said...

    Women are much more likely to be sexually harassed, assualted or raped. Women do more chores than men. Women are expected to fit an impossible beauty ideal, and shamed when they do not live up to it. Women make 75 cents on the dollar, compared to men who work comparable hours. Women must work harder to get less credit in the workplace. Male children are encouraged to be more outgoing and assertive. Women are shamed for being sexually active as "sluts." And on, and on, and on.

    All of these are proven in the sociological literature.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Millions of men AND women-- including trans men and women-- are barely making ends meet.

    Trans people, thanks to transphobia, are much more likely to be impoverished than the rest of the population. They are many times more likely to be victims of murder or suicide. Globally, the average lifespan of a trans person is only 23 years old (no, that is not a typo).

    Transphobia kills. Sure, you using "trans person" instead of "tranny" won't make a huge difference, but it also takes five seconds. A small effort, I should think.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Stuff that all blaming patriarchy crap where the sun don't shine. If your going to regurgitate the flat out lies of 75 cents on a dollar crap you are way far gone.

    The fuckin white house report came out 3 weeks ago and said women make 89% of what men make at the same jobs, the same report from the fucking WHITE HOUSE said they also worked 5 hours less a week which is precisely 11% less there is NO GAP.

    Yes women are more likely to be sexually harrassed, because they dress up to attract the attention of men. And when its a Bradd Pitt or a George Cloony who gives them attention their flattered, but if it's the garbageman who they deem they can do better than, thats when a woman say its harrassment. Tell me that isn't so. Don't be a hypocrite.

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  74. Women are shamed for being a slut because if you act like a slut you deserve to be shamed like a slut. You don't get a free pass for poor behavior.

    If a man acts like a dick he gets called a dick, he doesn't get a free pass either. we call it accountability in the real world.

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  75. Yes women are more likely to be sexually harrassed, because they dress up to attract the attention of men.

    Seriously, I never knew I could avoid sexual harassment just by dressing properly!!! Holy shit, someone alert the media, NWOAsshole has solved the sexual harassment problem--just make women wear burqas!!!!

    I mean, it's not like any women in the Middle East ever get sexually harassed, EVER.

    ReplyDelete
  76. I really love the wording of the last option, they're basically admitting that only a visitor/lurker can have no animosity towards women but a real MRA must.

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  77. --You fuckass, it doesn't say that. Look directly on the press release: women make 75% of what men make.
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/03/01/white-house-releases-first-comprehensive-federal-report-status-american-
    --Uh, I've never been sexually harassed by Pitt or Clooney (not that I'd fuck them anyway), but I assure you, getting yelled at "nice ass! wanna fuck?" out of a car is terrifying regardless of the attractivenss of hte man in question.
    --But there's nothing wrong with sluthood. Having consensual, enjoyable, safe sex with a lot of people is a morally neutral hobby, like woodworking or writing poetry. "Being a dick" actually hurts people, so we shame it-- for men or women.

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  78. NWAsshole, you're another pathetic misogynist who can't even think clearly enough to come up with a series of statements that aren't self-contradictory. You, and guys like you, are the reason the MRA movement has no credibility.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Also, I dress like a fourteen-year-old boy unless specifically trying to do something nice for my boyfriend (because I do that, actually) and I still got sexually harassed.

    ReplyDelete
  80. As the White House report acknowledges further along in its 97 pages of text, tables, and charts, women aged 25 to 34 earn 89 cents on a man's dollar, even without accounting for different jobs and work experience.

    In addition, "on the days that they worked, employed married women age 25-54 spent less time in labor market work and work related activities than did employed married men in the same age group-7 hours and 40 minutes, compared to about 8 hours and 50 minutes."

    That's about 5 hours fewer per week, or, in a 40-hour week, 11 percent. So, just on the basis of hours worked, women should earn 89 percent of what men earn.

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  81. So what you're telling me is that women don't dress up to garnish attention from men?

    I just want to make sure there's no hypocracy here. That women DO NOT dress to get attention from men ever. Of course that would naturally mean you put on make up, paint your nails, perfume, skirt, fancy shoes when your home alone. Is that the case?

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  82. FYI, I will be deleting all further comments in this thread using the word "tranny." (I won't delete previous ones as they've already become part of the conversation here.)

    Also, I sort of like this as a slogan: "No room for free thinker here."

    ReplyDelete
  83. First:

    * The participation of women in the workforce rose dramatically through the mid-1990s, but has been relatively constant since then.
    * Workforce participation among men has declined, but women are still less likely to work in the paid labor force than are men. When women do work, they are much more likely than men to work part-time.
    * Women continue to spend more of their time in household activities or caring for other family members; they also do more unpaid volunteer work than men.
    * Despite their gains in labor market experience and in education, women still earn less than men.
    * In part, this is because women and men work in different occupations, with women still concentrated in lower-paying and traditionally female occupations.
    * Because women earn less and because two-earner households have higher earnings, families headed by women have far less income than do married-couple families.


    The report does not seem to support NWAsshole's interpretation of it.


    Second: yes, women work fewer hours than men, on average. Do you think that's because there's something intrinsic about having a dick that makes you stay late? Something intrinsic about having a vagina that draws you homeward at the end of the day? Obviously not. If women are working less hours than men, then we need to ask why. I.e., is it by choice? And are men working those extra hours by choice? My impression is that women go home to do childcare more than men, because that is what is expected of both women and men. I am quite positive that there are men out there who'd prefer to spend more time with their families, and women who would like to be able to climb the corporate ladder. My proposed solution is to institute mandatory paid parental leave for both men and women, making it more socially acceptable for men to do child care, and evening the playing field between mothers and fathers. Of course, only a dirty socialist would support such nanny-state interference in our lives, but there you are. Common-sense solutions that have empirical evidence backing them up can't be tried in USA Land because they're "socialist."

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  84. NWAsshole, are you really saying that if women want attention from men, period, then they must also accept being harassed and stalked by them?

    Do you really think so poorly of men?

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  85. @SallyStrange...Yes women are more likely to be sexually harrassed, because they dress up to attract the attention of men. And when its a Bradd Pitt or a George Cloony who gives them attention their flattered, but if it's the garbageman who they deem they can do better than, thats when a woman say its harrassment. Tell me that isn't so. Don't be a hypocrite.

    This was the entire paragraph, please don't try to take it out of context. And I ask you If some super handsome, charming well dressed man with an accent came up to you and flirted, wouldn't you be flattered? No if some average menial laborer crawled out of the sewers and dirty and smelly and flirted would you be offended? Please be honest.

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  86. Sally that type of shaming reverse logic is hardly going to work on me. "Do I think so poorly of men." Do I sound like I can be so easily fooled? Please give me a little more credit I'm no fool. I'm just pointing out certain thruths if you will. Perhaps if you would answer my previous post we'll see.

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  87. NWO: Men have no reproductive rights, are you serious? I don't hear about conservative lawmakers passing laws limiting men's access to birth control and reproductive services on the pretext that men should be accountable for fucking by getting STDs and being unable to prevent pregnancy. Women's rights to birth control and sexual health services are increasingly being attacked, however. If you are talking about child support, then yeah: your reproductive rights don't extend to another person's body. Then again, women don't have rights to control other people's bodies either.

    Next: you lose all credibility when you claim that rape represents proper punishment for dressing in a way that's attractive to men. Once you admit that rape is a mechanism of social control over women, you can no longer claim that it isn't. You seriously argue that telling a man he's a dick for being a dick is the same kind of "accountability" as raping a woman for being attractive? Tell me, do you believe that men who look attractive to other men deserve to get raped? There is no justification for rape -- none whatsoever. We have nothing to discuss on the subject of accountability until you are prepared to hold rapists accountable for rape, with no excuses, conditions or white-washing.

    Garbagemen: do come off it already. Garbagemen (or "sanitation workers", as they are more politically correctly called) enjoy good pay (taking into account their level of education and marketable skills), as well as good benefits and the power of unions (except in Wisconsin, but you can hardly blame feminists for this). For an unskilled laborer with no education beyond high school, it's a pretty good deal. Demanding that garbagemen have an additional entitlement to have their pick of women is rather unreasonable, IMHO.

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  88. And now I'm NWAsshole? Excellent. I've still insulted no one yet I'm now an asshole.

    ReplyDelete
  89. @amused, If a man and a woman consensually have sex and a child is concieved, do I, as a man, have the "right" to a living child?

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  90. NWasshole, how do you then explain the fact that 85% of Egyptian women report experiencing sexual harassment in the streets? You know, Egypt, where women cover their heads, their arms, and their legs. Strange, huh, how sexual harassment doesn't correlate to amount of skin shown or anything else.

    Secondly, you keep conflating flirting with harassment. The two are not the same. The fact that you can't tell the difference says a lot about you. I don't need to answer all these intrusive and pointless hypothetical questions about how I'd respond in various situations. The point is that we are talking about HARASSMENT and you are talking about FLIRTING. If a woman dresses sexy because she wants to go out, flirt, and possibly get laid, that DOES NOT give street harassers any excuses. Dressing sexy is not an invitation to cross boundaries. Flirting does not involve crossing boundaries. Until you can understand this, you will continue to flail in useless rhetorical victim-blaming circles.

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  91. And now I'm NWAsshole? Excellent. I've still insulted no one yet I'm now an asshole.

    Actually, you have. Your explicit denial of bodily autonomy to women is insulting. Your claim that women who dress in a way that's attractive to men deserve to get raped is insulting. Your claim that any man who cares about pleasing his lover in bed is a "subservient moron" is insulting.

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  92. Ah, and now NWAsshole is back to treating children as objects. No, you don't have a right to any children. You have a responsibility to any children that share 50% of your DNA. Unless, of course, you go through the legal process of relinquishing all rights AND responsibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  93. It's not my fault that you are too stupid, callous, and/or indifferent to realize that your hatred towards women is both obvious and insulting.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Heres a link to the supposed pay gap. Please put this one to rest already.

    http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/03/03/white_house_womens_wages_myths_98895.html

    ReplyDelete
  95. @amused, If a man and a woman consensually have sex and a child is concieved, do I, as a man, have the "right" to a living child?

    No. No one has a "right" to a child. You have a right to autonomy over your own body -- your OWN body. Which means that, if you ever get a growth somewhere in your abdominal cavity, whatever it is, you have the right to keep it there or take it out, whatever you choose. If a person you've ejaculated into gets a growth in her body, whatever it is, you don't get to decide whether to leave it there or take it out -- because it's not your body.

    ReplyDelete
  96. No my question has been answered quite well. Men have no reproductive rights as established by the guns of the state.

    I harbor no hatred of women, only hypocracy. I also call out hypocracy on MRA sites as well.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Sally that type of shaming reverse logic is hardly going to work on me. "Do I think so poorly of men." Do I sound like I can be so easily fooled? Please give me a little more credit I'm no fool. I'm just pointing out certain thruths if you will. Perhaps if you would answer my previous post we'll see.

    Shaming? You're the one who's bringing shame on men by asserting (falsely, obviously) that if women dress a certain way, in a way that attracts the attention of men, then men are somehow compelled to harass women. You're not pointing out certain truths, you're making excuses for harassers and trying to pretend that all men are like them.

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  98. @SallyStrange...No sally I treat children as seperate living beings, abortion treats them as objects.

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  99. If you claim you have no hatred of women then why do you believe that women who dress a certain way deserve to be harassed? That's pretty fucking hateful. Harassment is extremely unpleasant.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Oh... abortion? Silly me, I thought we were talking about children, not fetuses.

    You should be more precise with your language to avoid confusing the issue.

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  101. No my question has been answered quite well. Men have no reproductive rights as established by the guns of the state.

    Really? The corner store doesn't sell condoms to men? Vasectomies are illegal in the US all of a sudden? Someone forces you to fuck at gunpoint? Medicaid doesn't cover the treatment of prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction anymore? Man, you are deranged.

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  102. @SallyStrange...No Sally, I'm saying that women do dress to get attention from men. The difference between being flattered and being harrassed is a womans feelings towards who is making the advancement.

    Brad Pitt = flattered
    sewerworker = harrassment.

    To say you wouldn't be flattered if Brad Pitt approached would be to lie. Yet the lowly sewerworker is in for a stint at the roundhouse for harrassment.

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  103. @Amused...Once conception takes place the deed is done. Thus a man has no reproductive rights.

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  104. actually NWO, I get harassed by my school's rugby players. It has nothing to do with how attractive they are. I just don't like other people harassing me

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  105. Well former fetus Sally who was a seperate life at conception and still is, yes.

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  106. NWAsshole, now you're trying to pretend that harassment never happens. That's also very insulting. It's insulting towards the millions of women who have experienced sexual harassment. No, it's not about the relative attractiveness of the man involved. Yes, if Brad Pitt yells out a window, "Buy a bra, bitch!!" then I would feel equally threatened and angered as I did when a total stranger (a fairly good-looking college age white dude, as I recall) did it.

    Of course, I say these things, but you won't believe me because I'm a woman and you believe that women lie about these things--because you hate women. Just own up to it, you'll probably feel better once you're able to be honest with yourself about it.

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  107. A fetus has the right to autonomy, except under current State enforced legal statute.

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  108. You weren't separate at conception, honey. If you were, women wouldn't need uteri. Facts of life--still learning them, eh?

    I owe my life to an abortion. If my dad's girlfriend hadn't aborted my older, hypothetical, non-existent half-sibling, I wouldn't be here. And guess what? THAT WOULD BE OKAY.

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  109. A fetus has the right to autonomy, just like men have the right to gestate fetuses.

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  110. @SallyStrange...I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm sure it does and it's wrong.

    What I am saying is that if your flattered by a Brad Pitt type man flirting and you being flattered, yet a lowly sewerworker on that same day says something, HIS flirting would be considered harrassment. Thats the hypocracy I'm speaking of. Which YOU won't admit to.

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  111. @SallyStrange...Please don't make stupid when a man can gestate arguements. Shall I say when a woman can produce the seeds of life then she has the state given right to abort?

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  112. I give only 2 reasons for abortion
    1)danger to the mothers life/trading one life for another basically.
    2)rape, because no woman should be forced to bear her attackers child.

    Other than that all else is murder, no matter how you say it or what you call it.

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  113. Once conception takes place the deed is done. Thus a man has no reproductive rights.

    A man has no reproductive rights IN SOMEONE ELSE'S PREGNANCY because a man doesn't get pregnant. Once conception takes place, the deed is done FOR YOU. For the woman, it's far from done. Or do you imagine that your sperm cells are actually microscopic children, whereas a woman's uterus is just an incubator? YOU don't get pregnant. YOU don't suffer the risk of death or lifelong disability as a result of conception. YOU don't get stuck with huge medical bills. YOU don't get swollen ankles, diabetes, organ failure and breathing difficulties. YOU don't have to quit your job because the doctor told you to spend the next 4 months lying on one side. YOU don't get fired because your weakened health makes you unable to do your job or because your boss is offended by the sight of your belly. YOU don't have to spend 40 hours in agonizing pain, prodded, picked at and pumped full of chemicals. YOU don't have to push something the size of a watermelon out of a bodily orifice. Therefore YOU don't get to impose this burden on someone else, even if (gasp!) you put your semen in them. Regardless of where you blow your load, your reproductive rights, just like women's reproductive rights, stop with your body. You don't have a right to control anyone else's.

    The difference between being flattered and being harrassed is a womans feelings towards who is making the advancement.

    That's right, Einstein -- women's feelings matter. You don't have a right to do whatever the hell you want to do and ignore the feelings of the person that you are doing it to. Besides: "Nice tits, bitch! Wanna suck my dick?" isn't flirting, regardless of the man's attractiveness or social status. Things like that aren't calculated to express an appreciation for a woman's looks -- they are calculated to insult and to inspire fear. So knock it off about sewermen. When you act in a way that's calculated to hurt a woman's feelings by making her afraid or by telling her she is a slab of meat, you don't get then to poo-poo those feelings as unimportant. Harassment and rape have nothing to do with attraction -- and everything to do with men like you feeling entitled to "punish" women for perceived social transgressions.

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  114. @SallyStrange...No sally your wrong, I do know my facts of life. At the instant of conception the fetilized egg detaches itself. It is seperate from the instant of conception. If it wasn't seperate, it never would be.

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  115. Nope NWAsshole, you've not caught me in any hypocrisy--and if you're going to use the word that frequently then you ought to look up the correct spelling.

    What are you trying to prove exactly? That it's harder to hit on stranger when you're dirty and smelly after a full day of picking up trash? Point granted.

    Except we aren't talking about hitting on people--that is, flirting, trying to get dates. We are talking about HARASSMENT, remember? And what do you say to the Egyptian women who cover not only their legs and arms but also their heads, 85% of whom report being harassed in the streets--what did THEY wear to deserve the harassment?

    Re: men gestating fetuses. It makes perfect sense. In Monty Python's The Life of Brian, the character Stan said he wanted to be a woman.

    Stan: I want to be a woman. I want to have babies. It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

    Reg: You can't have babies!

    Stan: Don't you oppress me.

    Ultimately the group decides that it's Stan's RIGHT to have babies.

    The fetus' right to autonomy is quite perfectly analogous. Sure, a fetus might have a RIGHT to autonomy--but since it lacks sentience, as well as the ability to survive without being inside a uterus, with a functioning placenta to siphon blood, oxygen, and nutrients off from the mother's body, it has no functional autonomy. Saying that fetuses have the right to autonomy is very much like saying that men have the right to get pregnant. Or that women have the right to get erections. Sure, you have the RIGHT. It's just functionally meaningless.

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  116. rape, because no woman should be forced to bear her attackers child

    So really, it's all about punishing women for you. Unless you also think it's acceptable to murder already-born people who happen to have a rapist for a father?

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  117. At the instant of conception the fetilized egg detaches itself. It is seperate from the instant of conception.

    Fine. If the egg detaches and is "seperate", then it shouldn't need to suck up another person's nutrients in order to grow and survive. So it should be free to pass out of the woman's body and go live somewhere else. "Seperately".

    Other than that all else is murder, no matter how you say it or what you call it.

    Fine. Then your refusal to donate your kidney to someone who needs it to survive is murder too.

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  118. @Amused...That's right, Einstein -- women's feelings matter.

    And this is where the hypocracy stems from. Two men, one a Brad Pitt type and one a lowly sewerworker could approach saying the indentical things. You would "feel" flattered at the Brad Pitt type, yet at the lowly sewerworkers approach you would "feel" harrassed. Thats hypocracy!!!

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  119. @Amused...stop your silly arguements in favor of abortion. Dead is dead, so unless you can produce a living being after an abortion that person is dead.

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  120. @SallyStrange...Yes sally, bringing a child into the world is mans way of punishing women.

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  121. NWAsshole, what precisely is the identical phrase that Brad Pitt and you--excuse me, I mean the lowly sewerworker--are uttering in your hypothetical scenario? I think we need to know exactly what this phrase is, that is so ambiguous that it would be interpreted as harassment from you--excuse me, the sewerworker--and as a flattering come-on from Brad Pitt. Then perhaps we can pass judgment on the supposed hypocrisy of recognizing that in the end, it is a woman's perception of harassment that defines harassment.

    (I mean seriously, how else are we supposed to define harassment--ask the harasser? It's not harassment unless witness by at least three witnesses, kind of like rape under some versions of Islamic law? That would fit well with NWAsshole's modus operandi.)

    So come on, give us an example. Maybe you can think of a few.

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  122. Yes sally, bringing a child into the world is mans way of punishing women.

    And you continue to insist that you don't hate women... why exactly?

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  123. @Amused...stop your silly arguements in favor of abortion. Dead is dead, so unless you can produce a living being after an abortion that person is dead.

    So what? A person -- granting, solely for argument's sake, that a fetus is a "person" -- doesn't have the right to survive at the expense of another person's bodily autonomy, even a parent's. The "person"'s relatives cannot forcibly cannibalize another's body for the benefit of the "person". Unless you are willing to grant that people who need organ transplants have the right to force donors to part with theirs.

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  124. And this is where the hypocracy stems from. Two men, one a Brad Pitt type and one a lowly sewerworker could approach saying the indentical things. You would "feel" flattered at the Brad Pitt type, yet at the lowly sewerworkers approach you would "feel" harrassed. Thats hypocracy!!!

    Really? Does your "lowly sewerworker" approach all women equally? Do you give the same attention to women who look like Angelina Jolie and obese 90-year-old grannies? Hot chicks and fat chicks without any preferences? No? Then you are a hypocrite.

    PS: You don't get to dictate to me how I feel. I don't care who is doing the harrassing, it's equally abhorrent to me regardless of the man's looks.

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  125. "FYI, I will be deleting all further comments in this thread using the word [gender identity slur redacted]"

    What about posts using the word 'idiocy'?

    ReplyDelete
  126. @Amused..."cannibalize another's body," This, this is your description of how every single person is born? This is the best justification you can come up with? How about if a woman "wants" to keep the fetus? Is it suddenly no longer a "cannibal" and becomes "my baby" when she rubs her stomach?

    So you couldn't tell I was being sarchastic Sally? Do I have to actually write, Being sarcastic?

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  127. Amused...So what you want then is to dictate who you "feel" should be jailed for harrassment and who you "feel" flatters you by whatever you happen to be "feeling" at any given point in time? Is that correct?

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  128. @Amused..."cannibalize another's body," This, this is your description of how every single person is born? This is the best justification you can come up with? How about if a woman "wants" to keep the fetus? Is it suddenly no longer a "cannibal" and becomes "my baby" when she rubs her stomach?

    That's right. It's her stomach, so she can do what she wants with it. HER stomach -- not yours, not Brad Pitt's. Her body. Why is it so hard for you to grasp?

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  129. @Amused...The fetus is a seperate being it is not her stomach that she aborts, it is a seperate life.

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  130. @Amused...It is not her body, if it were she would die. No part of a woman dies from an abortion, yet something does die. That something is a seperate life that no woman has the right to terminate. If she does she has murdered.

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  131. So what you want then is to dictate who you "feel" should be jailed for harrassment and who you "feel" flatters you by whatever you happen to be "feeling" at any given point in time? Is that correct?

    No, it's not. What I want, is for men like you to stop complaining about the supposed injustice of great tits and nice ass being attached to an actual human being with thoughts and feelings. I want you to stop dehumanizing us by claiming that being attractive makes us fare game for intimidation, assault, stalking and rape.

    Also: I would like MRA's to stop being dishonest and make shit up. Sexual harassment has to be pretty egregious before it rises to the level of a criminal offense, much less one that would result in a jail term. The overwhelming majority of sexual harassment is never punished in any way.

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  132. So you couldn't tell I was being sarchastic Sally? Do I have to actually write, Being sarcastic?

    Since you are incoherent, self-contradictory, and full of hatred for women, yes.

    Whether a woman wants her baby or not, the fact is that the fetus must leech off her body in order to survive, diverting up to a quarter of the nutrients she consumes. This is parasitism, even though women who CHOOSE to be pregnant may not regard it that way.

    If the fetus were truly separate, it would not die when evicted from its mother's uterus.

    In any case, care to speak to the question of the Egyptian women and explain what they were wearing that made them deserve harassment?

    Do you believe it's acceptable to murder the already born child of a rapist?

    What is that hypothetical phrase that is harassment when uttered by a sewerworker and a flattering come-on when spoken by Brad Pitt?

    In the other thread, I said that Manboobz is cool because it allows me to interact with anti-feminists on more or less equal terms. I'm afraid I was being overly generous, at least where NWAsshole is concerned.

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  133. @Amused... you say "Really? Does your "lowly sewerworker" approach all women equally? Do you give the same attention to women who look like Angelina Jolie and obese 90-year-old grannies? Hot chicks and fat chicks without any preferences? No? Then you are a hypocrite."

    The difference is I don't get to send you to jail for rejection, but you get to send me to jail harrassment. Thats the hypocracy of it all.

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  134. NWAsshole thinks that abortion is murder... unless the woman was raped.

    I guess children conceived via rape are subhuman to him--logically then it stands to reason that he thinks it's okay to murder the born children of rapists.

    If he doesn't, he's a hypocrite.

    Also, when was the last time someone actually was jailed for street harassment? I'd like to hear about that.

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  135. @SallyStrange...I told you before I don't hate women I'm calling out the hypocracy here. As I've told you I also do on MRA sites.

    As far as the Egyptian women you speak of I've heard nothing about it. Libya is the biggie in the news these days.

    Again I'm NWAsshole when I've insulted no one.

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  136. Tell me sally can you report me for harrassment if you deem me unworthy?

    Can I report you for rejection if you deem me unworthy?

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  137. The difference is I don't get to send you to jail for rejection, but you get to send me to jail harrassment. Thats the hypocracy of it all.

    Are you a spambot or something? That's the only reason I can think that you a.) can't answer questions posed to you and b.) continually misspell your favorite word.

    Rejection: not a crime

    Street harassment: a crime? Not really. I mean, it's not against the law to say rude things in public. It's just scary. Sometimes harassment escalated--if a man starts saying something like, "I'll kill you bitch!" then he could be arrested for that but I've certainly never heard of it happening.

    Harassment in the workplace: a crime. Usually not one that anyone goes to jail for.

    Cough up some citations, you fuckwit, or admit that your argument is pulled in its entirely out of your ass.

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  138. No NWAsshole, I cannot report you for harassment if I "deem you unworthy." I can report you for harassment IF YOU HARASS ME. Even then, I can only report you if you a.) threaten me verbally or b.) touch me without permission. Simply yelling "nice tits!" is, although rude and unsettling, not against the law.

    No evidence so far that you are able to differentiate between harassment and flirting. Creepy-ass shitstain.

    So again, what's that mysterious phrase that's harassment coming from you but a flattering come-on when spoken by Brad Pitt?

    You really are pathetic. Yes, you. No, not all men. Just you.

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  139. @SallyStrange...Oh no, no, no harrassment IS illegal. And we've got Hollaback exported worldwide. It's a "hate" crime.

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  140. Again I'm NWAsshole when I've insulted no one.

    That line right there insults my intelligence. Of course you've insulted people. Me, Amused, Egyptian women, women who get abortions (the dirty sluts who weren't raped, that is)...

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  141. http://www.letswrap.com/legal/harass.htm

    @SallyStrange...you see sally harrassment is a crime.

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  142. So you calling me an asshole and me saying you calling me an asshole insult you?

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  143. NWOslave, Maxim, which is CLEARLY a man's magazine, has a sex advice column for men.

    So did/does BritishGQ, Esquire, and Details.

    I found out that information within a second of googling: About 179,000 results (0.16 seconds)

    Is it the same as women? No: About 199,000 results (0.27 seconds)

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  144. Really, harassment is illegal? Yelling "nice tits" is illegal? How precisely? There are three ways I can think of to get arrested for engaging what we call street harassment.

    1. Direct threat of violence: "Ima kill you bitch!" or "Ima beat the shit out of you!"

    2. Touching without permission

    3. Indecent exposure

    If you are engaging in any of those activities then you could be arrested and possibly jailed. Otherwise? Citations please.

    We have Hollaback. So? We also have Dickflash.com.

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  145. Also, you are acting as an asshole so that is why they are calling you an asshole NWOslave. Stop acting that way and they will stop.

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  146. That website is talking about stalking, not street harassment. Again, you need to be more precise with your language.

    Previously you were saying that women invite harassment when they dress sexily. When you said harassment, I assumed you meant street harassment--yelling things in the street, groping, leering. Now, it seems you are talking about following a woman to her home or her workplace, looking up her phone number, sending her things in the mail, making anonymous phone calls--are all those things directly attributable to the woman's low-cut top and sexy, sexy lipstick TOO??

    I mean, wow. Seriously, who knew this shit was so easy? Make all women wear burqas all the time, and we'll eliminate street harassment AND stalking!

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  147. @Elizabeth...I read none of that tripe, I doubt if anyone does. How have I acted like an asshole.

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  148. Then tell me Sally what exactly is hollaback? And what is the goal of hollaback? And how will it accomplish its goals?

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  149. Answer the questions I posed to you. It is assholish behavior to continue to pretend that you didn't see them.

    1. The mysterious phrase

    2. Okay to murder rapist's children? (Not fetuses)

    3. What did 85% of Egyptian women wear to deserve being harassed in the streets?

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  150. I didn't say they invited harrassment I said they dress to garnish attention. I said that if a woman rejects a sewerworker for harrassing her yet doesn't reject a Brad Pitt type man if they both approached her saying the exact same thing. This is hypocracy. I know what I said.

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  151. You said there were no sex advice columns in men's magazines-I proved you wrong. You then state "well since I do not read it, it is irrelevant."

    That is acting like an asshole since you were shown to be incorrect and immediately ignored that fact.

    Nonasshole way of responding "okay, I was wrong about a few magazines. I do not read that tripe so I was unaware those magazines have such columns."

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  152. Again:

    1. What is that "exact same thing" that Brad Pitt or the sewer guy is saying?

    2. Okay to murder rapists' children? (Not fetuses)

    3. Why is street harassment so prevalent in Egypt? Are headscarves, long sleeves, and long skirts also designed to "garnish" (that word doesn't mean what you think it means) the attention of men? If so, is there ANY mode of dressing that will not "garnish" men's attention? We need to know right away, since once you answer this question we'll be able to end street harassment and stalking forever!

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  153. @Sally, OK

    #1) The mystery phrase. "WOW, you look hot."

    #2) If a man would rape a 10 year old girl his life is forfiet for commiting such a crime. If a woman gets pregnant from a rape that life is forfiet due to the crime of unlawful conception. Which is exactly the law of the US constitution. The law that allows todays abortion on demand is corporate law.

    #3) As I said I cannot answer because I honestly have no idea what the story is.

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  154. Actually I take #2 back I didn't finish reading your statement carefully. I thought it said fetus only. But as I said that is the woman choice because of the unlawful conception.

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  155. 1. Not harassment. Irrelevant to the discussion. Ergo: you are wrong, there's no hypocrisy.

    (Caveat: "Wow you're hot" can become harassment if the woman doesn't respond and the guy gets pissed off about it.)

    2. Incoherent. I don't think you understood what I was asking. What else is new? You are, after all, rather pathetically stupid.

    3. "As I said"? You never said a damn thing. You posited a correlation between dressing "sexy" and harassment. Now you're backing away from it.

    It's kind of sad that you're so dumb. I suppose it's better that way, though--smart assholes are a REAL pain in the ass. You are an annoyance.

    Good night.

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  156. Even if this hypothetical woman rejected a sewer worker in favor of Brad Pitt...

    SO WHAT?!?

    Are you saying that men respond to every pass made at them, without fail, and that *this* makes them morally superior? A woman has a right to respond to passes and flirting which she finds welcome. Yes, it's all based on what she feels - because women are people with valid thoughts, opinions and desires. There's nothing wrong with her liking Brad Pitt but finding this hypothetical sewerworker unattractive. Besides, if she fucked Brad Pitt, and the sewerworker, and any man who made a pass at her, you'd probably call her a filthy, disease ridden slut. If she aborts any babies, she's a murderess, but if she keeps them, she's a welfare queen. There's no winning with misogynists, is there?

    And women don't automatically interpret every unwanted advance as harassment, nor are men summarily thrown in jail for such. If that were true, there'd be no straight men left outside of the prison system, since women get unwanted advances ALL THE FREAKING TIME. And it's certainly not because of how we dress. And even IF a woman is dressed sexily, that's still not an open invitation to grope her, harass her or talk to her when she doesn't care to talk to you.

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  157. Wow, you really ARE stupid!

    I said: Okay to murder rapists' children? (Not fetuses)

    You said: I thought it said fetus only.

    That's not fast reading, that's feeble-mindedness.

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  158. How is my answer to #1 irrelevant?

    I answered #2) completely, apparently in my own now stupid asshole way.

    And 3 I explained clearly I do not know the story or article you are speaking of.

    SO you have dubbed me stupid, incoherent, asshole, dumb and annoying. After I have answered all of your questions but you have answered none of mine.

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  159. You have a responsibility to any children that share 50% of your DNA. Unless, of course, you go through the legal process of relinquishing all rights AND responsibilities.(Sally)


    Is that actually Legally possible in any state or province?

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  160. and feebleminded. I seem to be slipping ever further, a shame I wasn't aborted.

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  161. @Tit for Tat...I agree 100% Any man and woman who concieve a child both bear equal responibility.

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  162. Is that actually Legally possible in any state or province?

    I believe so, but I understand it's extremely complicated and am not certain that it's possible without the consent of the other parent.

    NWA you're a loser and yes, you have shown yourself to be stupid. Don't like it? Start being coherent. A shame you weren't aborted? That's an awful thing to say about yourself. I didn't say it though, so don't put words in my mouth.

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  163. T4T on the other hand: not stupid. Just prone to being very coy and disingenuous.

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  164. WIll you answer my questions Sally to enlighten me?

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  165. Sally

    Im genuine. Maybe not the way you would like. But I pretty much call it like I see it.

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  166. 1. I dress the way I do because I enjoy it, not because hypothetical men might enjoy it. Contrary to what some men seem to think, women can wear nice clothes or makeup WITHOUT thinking about being attractive to the opposite sex. Geez. How clueless are people?

    2. If Mr. Sewer Worker or Mr. Pitt came up to me while I was going about my business at the store or on my way to class or whatever else, and said, "Wow, you're hot!" I would respond in the exact same way: Ignore. I once had a guy zip up to me on his motor scooter, get my attention, waggle his penis at me, and then drive off. If he had been hot, I would still have rolled my eyes.

    3. Thank god someone else mentioned Maxim and GQ. I've never read a Maxim, GQ, or even Cosmo in my life either, but *somehow* I became aware of the contents of these magazines. It's called "paying attention to the world around you." It's fun. Try it sometime. They're placed everywhere in plain view. You have to be either blind (and I mean that literally), illiterate, or just oblivious to the world around you to avoid them.

    Of course, the "oblivious" thing would sure explain all the, "But women like being harassed sometimes!" stuff ...

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  167. Yes Tit for Tat I called it like I saw it and for that I was shamed mightily for not following the agenda. Basically you'll be forced to aswer all question posed and when your responses are unacceptable you'll be ridiculed. And none of your questions will be answered.

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  168. slave


    thats ok, I kind of like the tit for tat. You know, being that Im disingenuous.

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  169. @Eliza Doaslittleaspossible

    Do you dress up when your staying home alone?

    Are you really going to tell me if Brad Pitt came up to you and said "WOW your hot" you would ignore him?

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  170. Well tit for tat at least your not stupid, incoherent, an asshole, dumb, annoying and feebleminded like me.

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  171. What I mean, T4T, is that you don't seem to enjoy just coming out and saying what you think, instead you prefer posing leading questions that you already know the answer to.

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  172. slave

    No, Im pretty much all those things too. Well, maybe not stupid.

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  173. NWAsshole - that scenario with Brad Pitt? Never going to happen. I don't know if I'd ignore him or not--if I recognized him I'd be like "WOW, YOU'RE BRAD PITT!!" and then, "Hey... aren't you married to Angelina Jolie? She's way hotter than me... are you trying to fuck with me?"

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  174. I dress the way I do because I enjoy it, not because hypothetical men might enjoy it. Contrary to what some men seem to think, women can wear nice clothes or makeup WITHOUT thinking about being attractive to the opposite sex.(Eliza)

    My wife and I are having this discussion at the moment. Im not sure I agree with her so it looks like I might not be getting lucky tonight. ;)

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  175. Sally...I thought maybe you could answer my questions, well really just on extended question.

    What is hollaback? What are it's goals? How will those goals be achieved?

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  176. In other words sally you'd be flattered he said you were hot and he would NOT be reported for harrassment. Thank you for your honest answer.

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  177. If Brad Pitt told me I'm hot I would probably not believe him; but I wouldn't really care since I'm in a happy relationship, and asexual - so I wouldn't desire sex with him!

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  178. Also I don't know why everyone thiks angelina is like this great thing, I just don't see it. Ever see her with out being photoshopped to death? Meh.

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  179. @toraism...I don't even know what asexual is, every year some new sex pops up and I just can't keep up.

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  180. Do you dress up when your staying home alone?


    None of your fucking business. How women dress when they are at home or in public is completely irrelevant to your existence.

    Also, this Even if this hypothetical woman rejected a sewer worker in favor of Brad Pitt...

    SO WHAT?!?


    The sense of entitlement here is amazing.

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  181. WHY CAN'T I HAVE THE SAME TREATMENT AS BRAD PITT? *cries* She fucked him, therefore she should fuck me THE FILTHY WHORE!

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  182. Asexual means you don't desire sex. So even if some guy complimented me, flirted with me, etc, I wouldn't want to have sex with him (even if I weren't in a relationship!). I feel like most of the reason that a person gives out compliments/flirts/harasses is for sex, so as someone for whom sex isn't anything, I see it a bit differently.

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  183. Asexuality is a sexuality, not a sex.

    Good God.

    And why would you even ask a question if you'll only believe ONE answer? Why don't you just go on your merry little way and believe whatever the fuck you want?

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  184. @Nahida...The point is, If two men come up to you saying the exact same thing and one is some Brad Pitt Superstud and He flatters you by saying something, yet the other guy who is a lowly menial laborer will be called a street harrasser.

    Thats the point. It's pure hypocracy.

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  185. There is a difference between rejecting someone and thinking someone is a harasser. People of all genders obviously reject proposals from others to date/fuck due to attractiveness in part. When it comes to harassment, harassment is harassment, regardless of the looks and social class of the harasser. NWO simply assumes that women are golddigging bitches and so he cannot figure out those concepts.

    Oh, and the jobs of the last three men I went on a date with-gas station cashier, McDonald's, and a barber. The jobs of the last three women I went on a date with- university student, waitress, cafe cashier.

    @Sally, you hit the nail on the head with the rape exception, it is totally inconsistent with opposition to abortion due to personhood but all about slut shaming. I had a friend in highschool who was conceived due to a rape (an incestuous rape at that). She was a wonderful person no more deserving of being killed than any other actual person.

    Which brings me to another point, US law is extremely clear about abortion rights belonging to the person who is pregnant, not the biological mom (ova provider). Surrogates can neither be forced to abort nor denied abortion access. So, when the man gives sperm and the woman gives the egg, the person who is pregnant, whether or not they are the one who provided the egg, is the one who has the abortion rights. Disputes over ownership of embryos outside of the uterus (embryos from IVF processes) have resulted in clear and consistent rulings that the parties have equal interest. Parties also have equal interest after birth (in general, surrogacy and maternity laws can put bio moms in surrogacy cases in weird legal limbo in certain districts). It is pretty damned clear that abortion rights are conditioned on a certain situation-that of being the person whose pregnancy is involved. It is not a legal or social inequality that results in some people having uteri and others not.

    @NWO, I am sexually attracted to women and I manage to walk around the street and see beautiful women wearing all sorts of different things without harassing, sexually assaulting, or raping anyone. And, you know what? So do most hetero guys. Men, in case you haven't realized, are grown ass people capable of behaving like responsible adults if they do so choose. Btw, how can you not see the inconsitency between your view that men are out of control rape machines incapable of resisting nail polish as provocation to rape and your view that rape accusations are generally not genuine and that all (or most) men aren't rapists?

    @brigit, I have used dental dams and condoms for oral. It is not a deal breaker and I do it whenever my partner asks, I just have a preference towards not using it. But, ew, flavored lubes often contain artificial sweeteners, which taste worse than latex. (Yes, I do have both dental dams and flavored lubes available in my house, but I just am not a huge fan).

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  186. Oh STFU. Like you wouldn't treat a conventionally attractive woman differently than one who isn't.

    Don't bother telling me you wouldn't--because I won't believe you. Take what you give, biatch.

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  187. Because I want you to admit to the hypocracy.

    Men flat out say they are initially attracted to the most beautiful woman at first glance. We make no bones about it.

    But you on the other hand want to be flattered by Mr. studmuffin, yet claim harrassment by joe the plumber. You want to claim some injustice just for being approached by someone you find unattractive.

    So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached.

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  188. It's. Not. Hypocrisy.

    So if I can't claim foul for being rejected, why can you claim foul for being approached.


    Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is. KTHXBIE

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  189. NWO, you've had numerous women here tell you your assumptions about this are wrong. If you don't want to believe them, that's your right, but at this point perhaps it would be best to move on to another topic for fuck's sake.

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  190. @DarkSideCat...I agree with you in theory.

    This is the problem, if I approach a woman to talk to her, her perception of me determines wether or not I'm harrassing her.

    In other words, my being accused of harrassment boils down to a womans "feeling" at any particular moment in time.

    I could walk up to 10 women and say, "hey I really like your shoes" 9 of them might say thank you but the 10th one might say you're harrassing me, take my picture and hollaback. Correct? Which means that harrassment is exactly what any woman feels at any point in time. I find that to be a problem.

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  191. OK dave I will, it'd be nice if my previous post was answered I'll post no more I'll just refresh and see if anyone will respond to my previous post.

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  192. Damn straight it's whatever she feels at any point in time! If she isn't smiling at you, if she is reading a book or staring out the window or listening to her iPod--DO NOT SPEAK TO HER. She is not obligated to acknowledge your presence. She is not obligated to thank you for anything. She does not exist for you to approach her with insufferable compliments.

    If she glares at you after you tell her she has nice shoes YOU WILL NOT PROCEED TO BOTHER HER. If you do, if you ignore her wishes to be left alone, then yes--you are harassing her.

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  193. Are women not allowed to have feelings? Are we only allowed to have feelings that you approve of when you interrupt our day to tell us something we have no interest in being told?

    If Brad Pitt yelled out a moving car "You look hot!" I would look and feel puzzled. If Mike Trainor did the same thing, I would look and feel equally puzzled. Same if they came up to me in the street.

    But if Brad Pitt came up and said "fuck me baby," I would be offended and ignore him. Mike Trainor, on the other hand, I would be puzzled again and turn red.

    Is that what you are driving at? That a person I find attractive says something offensive to me I give him more of a pass because he is attractive to me?

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  194. Let me put this in a way that all MRAs can understand: in terms of cupcakes.

    The fact that I would eat a vanilla cupcake but not a chocolate cupcake is not hypocrisy.

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  195. Jesus. Call me weird here, but I don't date people who yell things at me on street corners. I did give my first kiss to a random guy at a bookstore? But his big line was "hey," which I highly recommend as a non-harassing way of figuring out whether someone wants to talk to you.

    Also, if Brad Pitt told me to fuck him in a non-harassing way, I'd still say no. Bleh. SO unattractive.

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  196. In short: I would rather fuck certain sewerworkers than Brad Pitt, assuming said sewerworkers otherwise fit waht I wanted in a guy.

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  197. How does this thread have 197 comments? I swear it wasn't even here when I checked the site a few hours ago.

    I will probably read the comments (for lulz, of course!), but I just wanted to pitch and say, before I did, that I'm really glad to see another post. A friend of mine once referred to being at the center of a blog war as passing under the eye of Sauron.

    Yay manboobz!

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  198. "Because I do not wish to be approached, and I have every right to reject whomever the fuck I want, as do you. Rejecting and approaching are not the same. One is not a choice, and the other is."

    I'm don’t think that the argument is that women don't have the right to reject whomever they would like. I think that the issue comes from the fact, as you mention, that "Rejecting and approaching are not the same." Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual. Frustrating and demeaning experiences accumulate, particularly for less attractive men and those with poor social skills, who may have difficulty properly calibrating their approaches. I have never seen anyone in the MRM argue that women should be harassed along the lines of 'nice tits, bitch', rather the argument is made (if sometimes poorly worded) that approach miscalibration (say, someone with poor social skills that keeps trying for a too long) can be easily misinterpreted as harassment, sometimes resulting in extremely rude and hostile responses and accusations of harassment, at work (many people still meet their mate at work) this sort of misinterpretation can make someone lose their job, and if the hollaback guys have their way, could result in legal sanction even on the street. Both men and women can approach and reject, but only men face possible sanction, if not yet legal in all settings, then certainly social, for a poorly calibrated approach.

    A heterosexual man is unlikely to enjoy much of a romantic life if he never approaches. So when you say “One is not a choice, and the other is", unless a man is choosing celibacy it really isn’t. I understand it must be frustrating to have to deal with approaches from people you aren’t interested in; the situation is often very frustrating for the men doing the approaching as well, particularly for poorly socialized men who don’t understand why they are unable to make the human connection that they observe others being able to make. No one says you can’t reject someone that approaches you (though you could keep in mind when doing so that no insult is intended). The possibility of formal or legal sanction for the crime of attempting to play at the courtship ritual is what comes off as a bit much, particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.

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  199. Unfortunately for many men, in most circles they are expected to be the ones doing the approaching in the courtship ritual.

    ...And that is why there is feminism.

    [...] particularly when a particularly attractive or charming man is much less likely to face such sanction for precisely the same behavior.

    For the love of God. This isn't true! And if it were, IT HAPPENS TO WOMEN TOO.

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