Wednesday, April 6, 2011

Sex-ed for assholes. And non-assholes, too.

Note: Girlfriend pillows are not actual girlfriends.
Men Going Their Own Way have some problems with sex. One of the biggest? Despite their best efforts to totally and completely avoid women -- which some reason always seems to involve spending hours online every day talking about women -- sometimes it will somehow come to pass that hapless MGTOWers will find themselves actually having sex with a woman. As you might imagine, this experience may not be altogether pleasant for either party involved.  Indeed, in my most recent post, I quoted one poor non-virgin MGTOWer who declared that “having sex with a woman is like humping a moist pillow: It doesn't join in and you can hardly tell the difference.”


What this young man has described is not “sex” so much as “really, really bad sex.” Fortunately, it can be prevented! The most obvious way, already hit upon by many MGTOWers, is to not have sex with women at all. If you despise and resent the entire female gender, it is probably best to not get naked with individual members of that gender. The women of the world will be happy to go along with you on this point, trust me.


But on the off chance that some MGTOWers might be willing to dial down their woman-hatred enough to actually contemplate sex with women, I would like to offer some tips on how to improve the experience for everyone.


First, to make absolutely sure that sex won’t come to resemble “humping a moist pillow,” make sure that your sexual partner is not, in fact, a moist pillow. 


This is a simple fix, and one that is often overlooked. 


If your partner is not actually a pillow but a live human woman, well, I will now give the floor to Ozymandias, who recently posted an extremely helpful list of suggestions in the comments here. Here it is again for anyone who might have missed it::



OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ GO!

So all the sex you've had with women, Zaku, has vaguely resembled fucking a moist pillow. I understand and empathize with your sadness about your sex life. However, young padawan, there are methods of solving this.

*Are all of your partners virgins or in high school? Virgins and high schoolers are terrible at sex, particularly if both are inexperienced. I personally was on my third partner before I was any good in bed.


FIX: Find your local cougar, slut or sexually assertive woman.


*Was your partner someone with sexual hang-ups? Slut-shaming often makes women think that enthusiasm makes them "bad girls", and ideas of men-earning-sex often make women think that lying there is their contribution to sex.


FIX: Have sex with feminists.


*Are you simply not that good in bed? This is a common problem among inexperienced men, and can lead to women not enjoying sex because it is not that enjoyable.


FIX: Learn the location of the clit (with an anatomy chart, if necessary). Listen to her instructions about sex. If she's moaning, KEEP DOING THAT. Try to give her at least one orgasm before you stick your dick in (be reasonable, if she's begging "stick it in me", go ahead, but it's a good guideline). Suck it up about the taste and learn to love eating pussy. Make sure you give her adequate foreplay (AT LEAST five minutes). Touch and kiss parts of her besides her breasts and pussy. Most of all, confidence and joy, confidence and joy.  [Editor’s Note: As briget has noted in the comments, if you really, really don’t like the taste of pussy, you can always use a dental dam; google the term if you don’t know what that is.]


*Was your partner very, very drunk? Bad sign. Sober people participate more.


FIX: If she's passed out or puking, don't fuck her.


*Was your partner freezing up, softly repeating "no, no, no", or otherwise clearly not enjoying herself? Then you may have had what is technically referred to as "nonconsensual sex," or by us Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington, "rape."


FIX: Seek affirmative, enthusiastic consent. This is shown by her, for example, ripping off your clothes, chanting "yes", sucking your cock without being asked, etc. If you are confused if she is consenting, feel free to ask "do you want to (have sex, make out, have me suck your tits, etc.)?" If you hear words like "no" and "stop," STOP IMMEDIATELY.

OZYMANDIAS SEX EDUCATION TIEMZ OVER.


Generally speaking, this is good advice for all inexperienced hetero dudes interested in improving their sex lives and the sex lives of their partners. (PROTIP: Improving the sex life of your partner will dramatically improve your sex life too.) With a few changes in wording to reflect different anatomies, as Oz herself points out, this is also good advice for straight women, gay women, gay men, trans men and women, bisexuals, and everyone else who is interested in having sex with some subset of their fellow human beings.


Just to reiterate one point: no one is a sexual expert from the get-go. There’s no shame in sexual inexperience. But it is sort of a douchebag move to blame the entire opposite sex for bad sex if you don’t know what the fuck you are doing in bed.  It takes some time, and some actual giving-a-shit-about-what-the-other-person-likes in order to get good at it. Generally speaking, if you like and respect your sexual partners, gaining this experience and expertise should be a highly enjoyable endeavor. Even if you don’t yet have much in the way of skills, a little bit of enthusiasm can go a long way. Also: you’re allowed to actually ask the other person what he or she likes and doesn’t like. This can prevent all sorts of awkwardness and encourage all sorts of fun sexy times.


Which brings us to another point worth reiterating: if there’s no shame in sexual inexperience, there’s no shame in sexual experience either. Sexually inexperienced women don’t know what they’re doing any more than sexually inexperienced guys do. So, guys, if you want to get with women who actually do know what they are doing, don’t look down on women for having sexual experience. If you’re a slut shamer, you basically have no right to complain if your partners are bad in bed. If you’re one of those dickheads who thinks women all become hags the instant they hit 25, or 30, guess what: you’ve ruled out having sex with the overwhelming majority of the women who are actually really really good at it. 


And while we’re at it: Taking the time to sit down and read about sexual techniques can speed up the process of getting good at sex enormously. If you don’t know how to find the g-spot, well, here you go.  You’re welcome. Lots more useful shit here and here, along with plenty of suggestions for awesome sexy-time book learnin. If you think you’re somehow above reading about sex, well, too bad: that’s what you’ve just been doing! 


If after all this you find that your partner is still lying there like a moist pillow, and you’ve ruled out sexual hangups, sexual inexperience and/or less-than-enthusiastic consent, there are a few other possibilities to look at: 


      1) She (or he) might be having libido problems because of depression – or due to side effects of depression meds – or for some other medical or biological reason. Time to see a doctor.


      2) She (or he) might be asexual. Some people just aren’t into sex. You’ll have to figure out yourselves what this means for your relationship. And that might mean: no more relationship. If you’re really into sex, and partner isn't, neither one of you is doing the other a favor by sticking around. 


3) She (or he) might actually be a selfish asshole. Selfish assholes tend to suck at sex. Try not to have sex with them. And don’t blame their entire gender for it. And if you're a selfish asshole, try not to have sex with anyone yourself.

Feel free to share your own tips (and links) in the comments. Learning more about sex and sexuality = good for everybody.

-- 

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the "Share This" or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it. 

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

118 comments:

  1. I would also like to add that porn is a really bad source and should be avoided when attempting to learn anything about sex (I'm not saying porn by itself is bad, just that it's not the best resource for learning what turns a woman on). It's, as Dan Savage says, Kabuki sex.

    Also, birth control is your friend - I know I have a better time when I'm not worrying in the back of my head if this is going to get me pregnant or give me herpes. Learn to love the condom. It might reduce sensation a bit, but being able to enjoy sex without worry makes up for it.

    Other than that, amazingly good advice!

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  2. 2) She (or he) might be asexual. Some people just aren’t into sex. You’ll have to figure out yourselves what this means for your relationship. And that might mean: no more relationship. If you’re really into sex, and partner isn't, neither one of you is doing the other a favor by sticking around.

    This is so fucking key. Sexual compatibility is very important in a monogamous relationship. Getting into one without either a) existing sexual compatibility or b) close enough sexual compatibility that, combined with honesty and open communication, you can work things out, you're asking for frustration, resentment, and/or infidelity (from either partner, or both). (cont'd next comment)

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  3. Given the way sex is shamed in our culture, a lot of people seem to think that sex is not a good reason to end a relationship. They think that a man would be a pig, or a woman a slut, to leave because they're not being sexually satisfied. (In reality, women are far less likely to leave a relationship for this reason, because our culture discourages women from actually expecting their sexual needs to be satisfied.) But that's bull.

    There's nothing wrong with having a high libido. There's nothing wrong with having a low libido. There's nothing wrong with having no libido. But for Cthulu's sake, don't get into a monogamous relationship with somebody whose libido is vastly different. If they want sex more you're going to get annoyed. If they want sex less you're going to get frustrated. There's nothing wrong with your sex drive. There's nothing wrong with their sex drive. Neither of you needs "fix" anything, except to reconsider the wisdom of your relationship.

    And that's my take. I think sexual compatibility is an issue that needs to be discussed in our culture, so there it is.

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  4. I think it's terrific advice and, as both Oz and David pointed out, a good guide for both genders. And I don't think porn is inherently bad as resource material.

    I think it might be difficult for the inexperienced, again male or female, to easily identify the difference between the "Kabuki" sex porn and the stuff that's a bit more, shall we say, realistic and accessible.

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  5. And I don't think porn is inherently bad as resource material.

    Depends. Mainstream porn is very clinical and joyless, and tends to focus exclusively on male pleasure. Sure, the women moan and express pleasure, but it's not even slightly convincing.

    I'm not of the opinion that porn is inherently exploitative and sexist. I am, however, of the opinion that, in practice, 99% of porn is exploitative and sexist. I don't think it's a good guide at all to sex. There's porn out there that is a good guide, but you can't expect young people to be able to discern this without guidance, which our mainstream culture is not terribly interested in providing.

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  6. you can find all you'll ever need to know here:
    www.scarleteen.com

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  7. I'd just like to point out that there's some evidence that feminism boosts sexual satisfaction for both men and women.

    On the subject of porn, I remember reading somewhere that learning how to have good sex from porn is like learning how to be a successful spy from James Bond movies. Both might be entertaining, but useful practical guides they're not.

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  8. True on porn...but the weird thing is that Fast Times at Ridgemont High had some good advice for ladies.

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  9. but the weird thing is that Fast Times at Ridgemont High had some good advice for ladies.

    It also indicates that straight men are inclined to masturbate to Phoebe Cates. So, a very accurate movie overall.

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  10. "I don't think it's a good guide at all to sex. There's porn out there that is a good guide, but you can't expect young people to be able to discern this without guidance, which our mainstream culture is not terribly interested in providing."

    Well, that was pretty much my point. The inexperienced (young people) may very well have a hard time separating the porn that can be fun and educational from the stuff that is ridiculous and, well, often misleading.

    I'm a woman; I recognize that the women in most mainstream porn are performing.

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  11. My biggest problem with porn was that it taught me that everyone has secret kinks! When I slept with my first boyfriend, who was utterly vanilla, it was very confusing, let me tell you.

    "Are you sure you don't like piss? How about crossdressing? Are you absolutely positive you don't have a thing for schoolgirl roleplay? I'll cane you if you want! You don't have to hide your fetishes from me!"

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  12. Since the conversation seems to have taken turn towards porn, I'd thought I'd throw in my highly valued opinion. Men are sexually excited visually and women are sexually excited for the most part by actions and words. This is just the nature of men and women.

    This can obviously be seen by what is considered the most convetionally attractive women recieving the most attention from men. Women on the other hand might be initially attracted to an extremely handsome man, but if he says something like, "duhhh, you pretty" well thats a deal breaker. Where as a man, for the most part, wouldn't care what a pretty girl says. Women basically are attracted to actions and words, what a man says and does.

    So "porn" for men is pictures of pretty girls and as he looks at the pictures he basically fills in the scene/dialogue. Because he isn't just staring at the pictures, he's using his imagination to conjure up some fantasy screenplay.

    Women are basically the opposite, their "porn" is the multitude of romance novels and such that come out by the boatload. Most of these novels involve a relatively young girl and an older man who is powerful. The sex scenes are of course quite explicit. So for women the scene is written out and they visualize what is being read. They're no visualizing women in burka's doing the dishes, just as men aren't filling in the dialogue of women saying they're doing the dishes while looking at young naked girls.

    So "porn" does saturate our society for both men and women. Men look at porn and fill in the dialogue, because it is their nature to be sexually excited visually. Women read porn and fill the visuals because it is their nature to sexually excited by words and actions.

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  13. NWOSlave: What was that? I was kind of busy wanking to Sex Is Not The Enemy, I didn't quite catch what you were saying.

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  14. More seriously: Men read romance novels. Men write on Literotica. Women masturbate to porn (there's a whole genre of feminist porn, even). Women run Tumblr porn blogs.

    Frankly, I'm not even sure if you are in the same sexual UNIVERSE as me. Did you miss the rampant fangirling of Orlando Bloom a few years ago? Do you believe that all that yaoi with the very pretty bishie men fucking is aimed at gay men? Do you think thirteen-year-old girls listen to emo bands for the MUSIC?

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  15. NWOslave, you know, so many people have given you such a hard time these last few posts. And I, admittedly, think that their indignation is completely justified but, I dunno, there's something that makes me feels a little bad for you. You seem kind of young and a bit inexperienced and, if I may, you seem to be one of the men who's latched on to MRA/MRM because you aren't very successful with women. I could be totally wrong. It's just the impression I get.

    So, I'm going to help you out - feel free not to take the advice. Whenever you find yourself saying something like "This is just the nature of men and women," when you’re trying to describe something as amazing and varied as human sexuality you are probably wrong. Have you, personally known a large enough sample of women to know what excites them sexually?

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  16. @Ozymandias...I don't konw who Orlando Bloom is, I don't know what yaoi or bishie men are. I don't know what emo bands are, but I'm guessing if those boys weren't in those emo bands, they wouldn't be getting the attention of those 13 year old girls. Aren't their actions and words the very thing that is giving them their popularity?

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  17. Ohhhhh I'm sooo turned on by words....yeah words are hot.

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  18. NWOSlave: We weren't talking about whether porn is good or bad (well, trip mentioned it, but nobody else). We're talking about whether it's a good guide for learning about real sex.

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  19. Yaoi is a genre of homoerotic or homoromantic that's aimed at and made by straight women. Also known as Boy's Love.
    Who'd thought straight women enjoy seeing two hot guys fucking? :)

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  20. Also, without passing judgment on anyone's lifestyle, the more times you have sex with the same person, the better your sex with that person is likely to be.

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  21. "Frankly, I'm not even sure if you are in the same sexual UNIVERSE as me."

    I'm a guy and I'm pretty sure he's somewhere on the opposite spiral arm of the galaxy from me. But then again, my relationship experiences stopped being like those of the average MRA once I realized the world didn't owe me pussy.

    "Do you believe that all that yaoi with the very pretty bishie men fucking is aimed at gay men?"

    Oh gods, don't mention yaoi, he'll probably become convinced it's all part of the feminist plot to condition women into liking femmy guys instead of manly men like himself.

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  22. @Nobinayamu...I assure you I am not young at all. My post that I've written has no MRA taint, as it were, what so ever. I've mocked, nor disparaged neither men or women. It is merely my personal observation/opinion.

    To say men and women are different isn't sexist or oppressive. Surely anyone can see they think and act differently. Men and women are not anrogynous, we arent interchangable. To say men and women think differently sexually isn't some heresy to be quashed. Why make it out like a competition. Why does it have to be, "yes I do think like that, or no you shouldn't think like that?" If as you say these differences are amazing, then why are you so against anyone who points out these amazing differences?

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  23. ...He doesn't know who Orlando Bloom is? Forget about being in the same sexual universe; he's not in the same universe, period.

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  24. "And I, admittedly, think that their indignation is completely justified but, I dunno, there's something that makes me feels a little bad for you. You seem kind of young and a bit inexperienced and, if I may, you seem to be one of the men who's latched on to MRA/MRM because you aren't very successful with women."

    You may be mistaking immaturity for youth there. And I personally don't feel bad for people like him because similar to racism, there comes a point where the person espousing this misogynistic shit has to consciously start blocking out information that contradicts their chosen position.

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  25. "To say men and women think differently sexually isn't some heresy to be quashed."

    No, it's just ludicrously simplistic. PEOPLE think differently sexually and to suggest that the differences can be drawn strictly in stark lines according to gender is foolish. But then again I believe you're the fool that was comparing pregnancy to someone being hooked up to an IV in a previous thread, so it's not surprising.

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  26. @MertvayaRuka...How is saying men and women are different misogynistic?

    @cboye...this is what a agreed with,"the more times you have sex with the same person, the better your sex with that person is likely to be."

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  27. NWOslave, let me understand this: you're spending time on the internet complaining that women like rich movie stores more than sanitation workers but you claim that not you're not young? Okay, then. I... I stand corrected.

    As for your posts not having any MRA "taint," I will just respectfully disagree.

    As for your more salient point, you didn't simply state that men and women are different. Everyone knows that men and women are different and there's very little that's controversial about that statement.

    You made a declarative and all inclusive statement about what turns on men and women. When you say something like "that's just the nature of men and women," you aren't even allowing yourself the wiggle-room of a qualifier. Like, you know, "most," or "many," or the vast majority.

    I'm not calling out your post because you said that men and women are different. I'm calling out your post because you don't know what you're talking about.

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  28. @ NWOslave

    Oh, here's the reference for the yoai and bishies.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Bishonen

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YaoiGuys

    Also, TV Tropes will ruin your life.

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  29. I simply can't understand your revulsion at the thought of men and women being different.

    If near 100% of visual porn is purchased by men and near 100% of literature porn is purchased by women, this clearly indicates a difference in what arouses men and women.

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  30. Why is this conversation veering away from yaoi? I love yaoi! Anyone have any recommendations?

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  31. Never mind, tawaen beat me to it. But the main link you're looking for is:

    Boys Love

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  32. So NWOslave what about women who enjoy seeing two guys fucking? There's a lot of us.

    Signed.
    Yaoi fangirl

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  33. If near 100% of visual porn is purchased by men and near 100% of literature porn is purchased by women, this clearly indicates a difference in what arouses men and women.

    Seriously, dude, statements like this are almost painfully stupid. First of all: internets. Who is still purchasing porn? How are you tracking who is watching/streaming/downloading porn? What possible methodology are you using to determine that "near 100%" of visual porn is is being consumed, exclusively, by men. Because all the men you know watch porn?

    Nearly all the women I know watch porn. So there you go. Are we going to pretend that along with photographs, magazines like Penthouse and Hustler and literally hundreds of others didn't contain tons of unillustrated erotica. Seriously. A "Letter to Penthouse" is such a common trope it's referenced in everything from sex columns to sit-coms.

    Men have written and consumed erotic literature for centuries.

    You just don't know what you're talking about.

    Please. Stop.

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  34. I bet if more porn were made with women's fantasies and desires in mind, more women would watch porn.

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  35. "She (or he) might be having libido problems because of depression – or due to side effects of depression meds – or for some other medical or biological reason. Time to see a doctor."

    Putting in a word for other solutions here that also generally apply to libido mismatch... lack of investment in sexual fidelity, open relationships to various degrees, finding sexual ways of being together that don't necessarily involve both partners being orgasm-directed (e.g. one partner masturbating in front of the other, cuddling, watching sexy movies), cultivating positive masturbation habits...

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  36. "You may be mistaking immaturity for youth there. And I personally don't feel bad for people like him because similar to racism, there comes a point where the person espousing this misogynistic shit has to consciously start blocking out information that contradicts their chosen position."

    You may very well be right. But, you know, I also feel bad for certain kinds of racists and usually try to reason with them as well.

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  37. " cultivating positive masturbation habits..."

    Bleah. I said that stupidly. I meant integrating masturbation into the relationship in a positive way (which is probably important in every case, but maybe especially so with libido mismatch)

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  38. NWOSlave: Because, uh, we're not THAT different.

    Even if on average men and women are different from each other (iirc, cross-culturally, men have more upper body strength, women have more pain tolerance; men tend to be more physically aggressive; someone has higher verbal ability but I can't remember who and my gender studies notes are hiding) that doesn't mean all women are different from all men. A female Olympic athlete will have more upper body strength than a male couch potato. Essentially, it's academic to say "women this" or "men that"; what matters is each individual person.

    And slash is awesome. Wincest represent! (fistbump)

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  39. Also: Rachel, you are awesome and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

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  40. "@MertvayaRuka...How is saying men and women are different misogynistic?"

    You're not just saying that. You're making unsupportable absolutist claims about what men women are attracted to and then implying that it is a defect inherent to women. You're making it sound like there's a small specific subset of men all women are attracted to and then further claiming it as being some kind of planned injustice against men who don't fit in that subset. You bring up groups of men (sanitation workers and such) solely to claim that they're looked at as some kind of "untouchable" caste by women when the real world does not bear this out. You're conflating women not wanting random guys yelling "NICE TITS!" at them from job sites with women turning labor-class men down for dates.

    "I simply can't understand your revulsion at the thought of men and women being different.

    If near 100% of visual porn is purchased by men and near 100% of literature porn is purchased by women, this clearly indicates a difference in what arouses men and women."

    Near 100% of that statement was pulled directly out of your ass. Learn to read better, we're not "revolted" by the idea of men and women being different, we just find the idea that men and women are never turned on by the same things to be ridiculously simplistic and silly. On the contrary, it seems to be you that are revolted by the idea that men and women could ever be similar.

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  41. "You may very well be right. But, you know, I also feel bad for certain kinds of racists and usually try to reason with them as well."

    Nobinayamu, then you're a much better and more patient person than I am. But then I'm usually going nose-to-nose with people I know either have too much invested in remaining as they are or people who know what they're doing is wrong and just don't care.

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  42. NWOaf, still too dense to realize when he’s being insulting to men and women.

    NWOaf states that All Men Like X and No Women Like X; and All Women Like Y and No Men Like Y. No qualifiers or anything, just, “this is the nature of men and women, full stop.”

    This is a transparent attempt to prevent himself, and incidentally the rest of the world, from becoming aware of and acknowledging the existence of women who like X and men who like Y.

    It is, in point of fact, extremely insulting to be told, “You don’t exist.”

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  43. ...And having posted that, now I'm looking up what animes include Bifauxnen. *sigh*

    Sweet, tasty gender ambiguity. NWO doesn't know what he's missing out on with his insistence on rigid gender/sex roles.

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  44. See, now, this is why charlatans like John Gray sell so many books.

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  45. Or, to paraphrase the illustrious Judge Judy: don't shit in my thread and tell me it's chocolate pudding.

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  46. I think NWOaf is a better nickname for NWOslave.

    Who is John Gray?

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  47. ozy, wincest FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh my goodness SO. MUCH. WIN.

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  48. I want to second Rachel's list of alternate solutions to libido/libido-mismatch issues.

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  49. Men are sexually excited visually and women are sexually excited for the most part by actions and words... So "porn" for men is pictures of pretty girls ... Women are basically the opposite, their "porn" is the multitude of romance novels and such that come out by the boatload.

    I dunno about that being a universal truism.
    Romance novels = BLEEEAAAAH!!
    Viggo Mortensen's full frontals in a few flix = MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!
    But that's just my opinion.

    Who is John Gray?
    The dude who wrote "Men are from Mars, Women from Venus" or whatever that crap was called.

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  50. "NWO doesn't know what he's missing out on with his insistence on rigid gender/sex roles." Yes, I'll second that!

    As for the porn discussion, there's so much crap to wade through out there - I lost interest years ago trying to find the gems hidden in the trash.

    And seriously, nothing I saw did anything to help my sex life. If anything, I had to overcome thoughts of performance, trying to measure up to some actor.

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  51. Any guy feeling inadequate should read Jim Butcher's Blood Rites where he describes in detail what happens at a porn shoot.

    Those guys may look like they are the bestest ever but it really is just really good lighting, editing and the like.

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  52. I simply can't understand your revulsion at the thought of men and women being different.

    Then, respectfully, you don't understand the feminist position. Do some reading. Google "gender essentialism" and read some articles about why most feminists oppose it.

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  53. "I simply can't understand your revulsion at the thought of men and women being different."

    Well, maybe THEY can't understand your devotion to the thought that men and women are different, since THEIR observations (and mine) don't show that at all. In fact, men and women, in MY experience (since you dragged personal experience into it) is that men and women are more alike than you think.

    In my observation, someone told you that "men and women are different," you decided to accept this without a critical thought, and now everything you see has to conform to that preconceived notion.

    "If near 100% of visual porn is purchased by men"

    NEARLY 100% of certain kinds of visual porn is purchased by men. OTHER KINDS of visual porn (such as Wicked Films and Playgirl) are purchased by women. Several porn outlets online are aimed specifically at women and these include pictures and video.

    "and near 100% of literature porn is purchased by women,"

    Actuually I daresay porn magazines contain written erotic stories, and Penthouse Forum is definately aimed at men.

    "this clearly indicates a difference in what arouses men and women."

    You don't get out much, do you?

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  54. Ozy: Wincest represent!

    Yay, it's so hard to find a kindred spirit outside of writers of terrible fanfic.

    In fact I just wrote some erotica the other day with some wincest in it. (It wasn't slash, but still.)

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  55. @ elizabeth, why is it that guys can't understand that it's not the size of a boat but the motion of the ocean that rocks a woman's world?

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  56. Probably because they are generally not on the receiving end?

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  57. :: cheers for Jim Butcher ::

    People should read him regardless :)

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  58. Who is John Gray?

    The guy who wrote Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

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  59. So one thing about me and porn:

    I don't like photo/video porn at all, but I love drawn/animated porn. I guess I find the idea of looking at real people getting it on to be squicky, but I love imaginary people getting it on.

    -katz

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  60. trip and briget: I am highly amused at the crossover between "manboobz reader" and "wants to see Dean and Sam getting it on." I knew I liked us for a reason. :)

    Lady Victoria--Indeed. The Dresden Files is so badass.

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  61. Lady V, thou speaketh the truth.

    And I cannot wait until Ghost Story comes out. I have a running argument with a lawyer here at work over who the woman's voice at the end of Changes. I said it was Dresden's mother's and he says it is Lasciel's.

    As for John Gray-piffle, men are from their mothers as are women.

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  62. Insert was into that last comment. Sorry.

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  63. Wincest? Nope, Sam is too boring (I liked evil Sam from this past season better than usual whiny Sam). I am much more of a fan of Dean/Castiel.

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  64. Dean/Castiel makes more sense anyway-Sam is just not Dean's type.

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  65. Oh look! Hypocrisy is spelled correctly in the tags. Yay!

    Also, I've never really seen porn and consequently have nothing to contribute to this discussion. (And yet I STILL know NWOslave's auditory/visual generalization is bullcrap.)

    (Supernatural? o.O)

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  66. I don't particularly care about the two of them as characters getting it on, it's mostly about the guys who play them for me. I've had a serious school girl crush on jared padalecki since he played dean on the gilmore girls. I started watching supernatural for that reason alone. Then I stayed for the fact that both him and Jensen Ackles are SO FUCKING HOT.

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  67. Considering what had just happened to Harry, I'm betting his mother's likelier - but, yeah, I can't wait. I read Side Jobs to tide myself over, it's pretty good.

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  68. I am coming to the conclusion that every woman in America either reads and/or writes Supernatural fanfic, or knows someone who does.

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  69. david, I don't think that most lesbians would be into supernatural fanfic.

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  70. I've met lesbians who write Supernatural fanfic. And bandom. There's a lesbian separatist who writes AFI RPS, iirc.

    Point being: people are weird and awesome. :)

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  71. Popping in to confirm that yes, lesbians write male/male slash fic (and lesbians write female/female slash fic, and no doubt het and gen fic as well). Ditto straight women. Ditto queer women. Ditto asexual women. I know a few men who write fan fic of various types as well.

    So not a Supernatural fan myself--but have a slew of LOTR fps and rps on my livejournal.

    And it's not just fic: 'manips' (manipulations of photographs) produce some xxxxx rated images of characters and celebrities (one of hottest fandoms right now is Sherlock Holmes, both film and new series), and fan art (multiply x rated).

    I was amused by the contradiction of "if you were approached by Brat Pitt, you'd do what he wanted," and "women are not turned on visually." I find Brad Pitt boring--but Sean Bean! Wowrrrr.

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  72. ozy and ithiliana,
    I'm not saying no lesbian likes it, writes it etc, I just don't think that they all do, that's all.

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  73. True! But they might all know someone who writes/reads it, so technically David could still be correct.

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  74. How many people are even into Brad Pitt anymore? According to my calculations, he's 48, a bit past the normal heartthrob demographic.

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  75. The only sex advice MRAs should be given:

    Sex with women is horrible. They've all got teeth down there. For real. Never, ever, have sex with a woman. Ever.

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  76. You may be mistaking immaturity for youth there.

    I tend to agree with this. Based on his nym, I'm guessing "slave of the New World Order" is a middle-aged wingnut conspiracy theorist. Care to confirm, dude? Want to tell us about the NAFTA Superhighway and the NAU and the Amero? You know you do.

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  77. "Based on his nym"

    Please, please tell me that this is just cutesy and not some sort of gender neutral orwellian rewording of the patriarchal word 'name'. Please.

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  78. I think nym is just short for pseudonym.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nym

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  79. NWOslave
    "why are you so against anyone who points out these amazing differences?"

    Because he/she a communist dumb fuck who thinks men and women are the same and biology isn't real.
    "Evwyfing is wuuurned! Identicul twins weard apart just act du same cuz of coincidenfe.
    Eeeet ees aww a social constwukt!"

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  80. As for Sam and Dean and Castiel, all I'm saying is, would it kill you gals to write some Joan/Peggy fanfic?

    THAT I would read.

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  81. "I think nym is just short for pseudonym.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nym "

    Oh, thank you David (and god). Apologies for my comment.

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  82. @cboye
    Troy wasn't that long ago. By the way, anyone who doubts women are visual should ask a woman (should probably add: who saw that movie and enjoyed it) what the best part of Troy was.

    My mom really REALLY liked watching Brad Pitt naked. I mean, Troy.

    I'm asexual, but I still like that "Greek statue" sort of body, aesthetically speaking. He looked good.

    But if Troy Brad Pitt approached me on the street all naked with his pecs glistening in the sunlight, I still would probably call the cops.

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  83. "Evwyfing is wuuurned! Identicul twins weard apart just act du same cuz of coincidenfe.
    Eeeet ees aww a social constwukt!"


    I too find that restating an opponent's (alleged) argument in a childish voice is a good way to disprove it.

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  84. When I saw the Wolverine movie, the group consisted of me, a few straight men, two straight women and a lesbian couple. If you haven't seen the movie - bad writing, adequate acting and Hugh Jackman runs around with his shirt off for half the movie.

    The men and lesbians thought the movie as a whole was poor to middling, while us straight gals thought it was pretty great. I'm fairly certain a shirtless Hugh Jackman had something to do with this.

    Also, I was just reading about a study where they hooked both men and women up to porn. Men were turned on by watching their preferred pairing (gay men liked gay porn, straight men liked straight porn), but the women just seemed to be turned on by people having sex. Straight women got turned on watching lesbian porn, and lesbians got turned on watching straight porn.

    So, if anything, women are even MORE visual creatures than men. I wonder if living in a culture which tries to shame women for being openly sexual and which disparages porn-loving women has more to do with the disparity in porn viewing habits than just gender...?

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  85. The only thing I have to contribute to the actual topic of discussion is the observation that people tend to generalize their own particular kinks. "If I like reading Sky Captain/Dex slash, that means everybody does."

    (BTW, I don't know whether there actually is such a thing as Sky Captain/Dex slash, but Rule 34 says there must be.)

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  86. I also find quite interesting the level of (presumably mainly hetero) male discomfort at full frontal male nudity in films that are not sexual or pornographic in nature. Is that because men are not visual creatures or are those films just lacking the "proper" visuals?

    Maybe it's not so much that women are not visual creatures as it is some of us are just bored with being treated to the "proper" visuals all the time.

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  87. David: http://archiveofourown.org/works?utf8=%E2%9C%93&selected_tags%5Btags%5D%5B%5D=15088&selected_tags%5Btags%5D%5B%5D=84844&boolean_type=and&tag_id=Mad+Men&commit=Filter+Works

    Only found two. Sorry dude. Rule 34 is falling down on the job.

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  88. "I am coming to the conclusion that every woman in America either reads and/or writes Supernatural fanfic, or knows someone who does."

    Is this what MRAs are referring to when they speak of a 'feminist hive-mind'?

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  89. This is amazing for so many reasons. One of which is the inclusion of asexuality as a viable sexual identity. Ozymandias' Sex Ed was also amazing and excellent. All around win post dude.

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  90. Evil, obviously genetics effect who we are, almost no one denies that. Just because genetics effect physical and psychological traits does not mean that genetic gender has a significant impact on psychological traits.

    Indeed, plenty of men born with a y chromosome exhibit what are traditionally considered female traits.

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  91. @Sandy, not to mention that what is considered a "female" or "male" trait varies greatly across cultures. May I suggest some fun reading for EWM in terms of ancient Greek tropes, where pants (worn by those fithy barbarian Gauls ;) ) were seen as incredibly effeminate and writing musicals to be performed in drag was a fine masculine activity.

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  92. @ DSC

    And high heels were originally worn by men (who fought duels in them, so no French jokes, please) and the color pink was considered a more assertive and masculine color than blue less than a hundred years ago.

    And all ancient Egyptians who could afford to do so shaved their entire bodies. (Fleas. Eww.)

    Anyway, no one who has studied history can really say that masculinity and feminity are biological. Gender roles are social constructs that we perform because that's how we were raised. Playing with dolls is not hardwired to the vaj nor are penii-bearers really allergic to pink. Some people have an innate preference one way or the other, but it has little to do with their nether regions.

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  93. Ozymandias, you are my hero this week both for your advice and the phrase Femicunt Queens of Nofunnington (T-shirt?)

    Most of the bad heterosexual sex I've had is bad because it's so linear and goal oriented. The man "rounds the bases" and then it's over as soon as he comes. Double negative bonus points if he asks "Did you come, baby?" (When that happens, it is obvious). Sometimes there is a half-hearted offer - "Do you need me to keep going/do something else?" which, I guess it's the polite thing to ask, but you'll have to trust me on the half-hearted tone and really at that point I'm not interested in more perfunctory goal-oriented touching.

    Good sex is nonlinear and can happen in any order because whatever is going on right now is good. Orgasms come when they do, sometimes you fuck and sometimes you do other stuff, because, as Ozymandias said "confidence and joy. Confidence and joy."

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  94. "Because he/she a communist dumb fuck who thinks men and women are the same and biology isn't real."

    Is this just your way of saying "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina"?

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  95. NWOSLAVE has managed to contradict himself so well, there is now a hole in the space time continuum. I am now reading this blog prior to it existing.

    So women are not visual and care more about what a man says and does but at the same time if an attractive man and a "garbage" man say the same thing, the reaction to one is good but the other is harassing her.

    His mind is a strange place.

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  96. captain awkward, thank you for pointing that out. Oh and my bf's question normally isn't "did you come baby" but "how many times did you come?" He's jealous of the whole rolling orgasm thing (it is not a myth, most men just can't do cunnilingus well enough to get it going)

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  97. Good sex is nonlinear and can happen in any order because whatever is going on right now is good. Orgasms come when they do, sometimes you fuck and sometimes you do other stuff, because, as Ozymandias said "confidence and joy. Confidence and joy."

    This. Times a thousand.

    PinV is overrated anyway. Don't get me wrong, it's fun and it feels fantastic. But I just don't have the stamina to do it for more than a few minutes at a time. That's why my sex generally goes something like:
    foreplay -> PinV -> foreplay -> PinV -> foreplay -> maybe take a short break, talk about Star Trek -> PinV -> foreplay -> PinV -> tea

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  98. "Evwyfing is wuuurned! Identicul twins weard apart just act du same cuz of coincidenfe.
    Eeeet ees aww a social constwukt!"


    Glenn Beck, is that you?

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  99. "Glenn Beck, is that you?"

    Probably not - GB is busy crying tears of sorrow right now. And I don't even think GB is so dumb to think the study of three or four pairs of twins should be extrapolated into a general trend.

    Twins = exactly alike because of genetics, but men and women are as different as night and day despite the fact that they share human DNA.

    Go figure.

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  100. For the sake of honestly, I must point out I stole "confidence and joy" from Emily Nagoski, the Sex Nerd, whose blog everyone should read.

    Ugh, I would have put in orgasm-focus in my advice, except that if your partner is lying there like a moist pillow you have bigger problems. You can have good sex with orgasms! You can have bad sex without orgasms! My boyfriend feels he is falling down on the job if he "only" gives me two orgasms. Thankfully, I have multiples, but even so, sometimes you just want to enjoy someone else's enjoyment, y'know?

    Also: sex is not a sport. Simultaneous orgasms are overrated. If your girl doesn't ejaculate or have multiples or rolling orgasms, it doesn't mean you're bad in bed. In fact, in my experience, the stress to get the "peak experience" makes the experience of sex less enjoyable.

    Trip-- Now that, good sir, is awesome sex. Although you end up going through a lot of condoms...

    The Femicunts are my new riot grrl band.

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  101. True Ozy-getting that through male heads has been next to impossible in my experience. "What do you mean you do not care?" I finally had to come up with a new way of describing it: "it is a vaginal massage okay! It does not require orgasm!"

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  102. Well now David - this is interesting.

    I finally decided to sign up for an MGTOW account...

    Guess what - I was instantly banned. PERMANENTLY.

    I wonder why?

    Perhaps somebody running it is afraid of somebody like me - somebody with computer tracking skills?

    Any ideas why I might have been instantly banned David?

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  103. trip: That sounds...perfect, actually. Do you put on the tea before you start, or during the break, or just afterwards?

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  104. The studies on identical twins separated at birth always amuse me. I figure they must be sociologically meaningless simply because the number of studies that has been done on those people must skew the data.

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  105. @Elizabeth: I only post my diarrhea jokes here.

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  106. Oh, so that is why they got mad at you and banned you. Not enough diarrhea jokes.

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  107. Perhaps somebody running it is afraid of somebody like me - somebody with computer tracking skills?

    They done backtraced you, Scarecrow. Consequences will never be the same.

    Do you put on the tea before you start, or during the break, or just afterwards?

    Definitely not before. I've ruined kettles that way. Usually afterward.

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  108. True Ozy-getting that through male heads has been next to impossible in my experience. "What do you mean you do not care?"

    I almost never play the "women do it too card," but. I take a medication that makes it very difficult for me to orgasm. Oftentimes when I'm having sex I can tell that it's not going to happen, and I'm fine with it. I still enjoy the sex immensely.

    But every single woman I have sex with has trouble really believing that I'm okay with it, at least the first couple times. Sometimes they seem to take it as a judgment of their performance or attractiveness. Naturally I reassure them that this isn't the case.

    Of course, in the case of women wanting to make men orgasm, I think it's a reflection of the patriarchal idea of male orgasm as the "end goal" of sex. Whereas in the case of men wanting to make women orgasm, it's often because they want to view themselves as a manly man stud McStudson. The solution, as is generally the case, is more feminism.

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  109. The studies on identical twins separated at birth always amuse me. I figure they must be sociologically meaningless simply because the number of studies that has been done on those people must skew the data.

    This doesn't make any sense. There have been thousands of people involved in twin studies over the years, in different countries, at different times, for different purposes. Twin studies--especially those that study twins separated at birth--are important to sociology AND a number of other disciplines, particularly genetics, because they have shed an enormous amount of light on the complex interaction between genetic traits and cultural influences. They have challenged our old ideas around heritability of traits and forced researches in many fields to reevaluate their answers to that hoary old question, "Is it nature or nurture?" (Answer: yes.) I am not sure which numbers cboye thinks are skewing data, or how--and the fact that this basic element of his skepticism towards twin studies is unclear should tell how much stock to place in cboye's skepticism.

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  110. @Elizabeth - OK, you got me - that one made me laugh.

    I appreciate a sense of humor.

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  111. Actually a "separated at birth" twin study would really only be relevant if the twins were raised in wildly disparate cultures. For example, one twin went to live in a South American Pygmy tribe while the other one stayed behind in the United States. It is entirely unsurprising that twins raised apart in the same culture will exhibit similar cultural behaviors - in fact it is to be expected.

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  112. Sally: Are there really thousands of pairs of twins that have been separated at birth? If so, I stand corrected. It doesn't seem like a common enough occurrence to provide a statistically meaningful sample size, particularly for a large number of studies.

    P.S. my handle is Katz.

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  113. @Elizabeth they probably don't like diarrhoea jokes, now constipation jokes! That's what they like! It's funny to them on a personal level.

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  114. Are there really thousands of pairs of twins that have been separated at birth?

    Nope, but there have been thousands of studies involving identical twins. I was including separated-at-birth studies under that subset.

    In any case, in order to say whether data is being skewed, you have to first explain how, and why. And in order to do that, you have to first have a conclusion that is being skewed for or against. Small numbers of subjects can still reveal lots of information, it just depends on what you're testing for. You didn't mention any of that, which makes me think that you just have an irrational bias against twin studies, birth-separated or not. And your bias seems to stem from a misunderstanding of the importance of sample size in statistics.

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  115. "Also, I was just reading about a study where they hooked both men and women up to porn. Men were turned on by watching their preferred pairing (gay men liked gay porn, straight men liked straight porn), but the women just seemed to be turned on by people having sex."

    This is interesting. I'm a straight lady but I love gay and lesbian porn, anything but heterosexual! I also hate romance novels because they are very...het. Not that I don't enjoy male/female love stories, but it doesn't generally turn me on, because it's generally more 'romantic' and less sex-orientated.

    I do read slash fiction, but honestly, if they made (visual) porn for women of guys I would be all over that shit. It just doesn't seem to exist because of people droning on about how 'men are visual' and women see attractive people fucking and have to fight back the urge to vomit.

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