Friday, April 8, 2011

Dating advice for "creeps" who don't want to be creepy any more.

You don't actually need to wear goggles.
So the other day we were talking here about how to have the hot sexes with someone who wants to have the hot sexes with you also. Lots of good advice in that thread, but none of it is very useful to guys sitting around at home with no one but Pamela Handerson willing to climb into bed with them. So how exactly does one find a special someone to have the sexes with  – especially if you’re one of those horny, socially awkward guys who tends to get labeled a “creep?

Well, wonder no more, because two of my favorite bloggers have some advice for you:

In a post on the Good Men Project Magazine, Clarisse Thorn sifts through the sexist garbage that permeates virtually all Pick-Up Artist (PUA) websites in search of some decent, ethical advice that can help socially awkward guys connect with women. As she puts it:

the current pickup artist subculture has a monopoly on effective advice for how to break down social interactions and talk to women. Not all of it works, but enough of it works that it draws guys in. As a pickup artist instructor once told me, “When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’” 

I wouldn’t go so far as saying  that PUAs have a “monopoly” on good advice, but there are aspects of the basic PUA approach that do make sense, and do work. To oversimplify a bit, the PUA approach encourages men to do something that women have been doing for centuries if not millennia: playing hard to get. Yep, guys who don’t come across as desperate and clingy tend to do better with the ladies than guys who do. That one basic insight is worth a lot more than an e-book-full of idiotic “openers,” not to mention the sleazy sort of date-rapey shit that self-described PUAs like the gun-happy Gunwitchpreach. 

In any case, after offering a critique of some of the most obvious issues she has with PUAs, Clarisse links to a bunch of sites that she thinks can be genuinely helpful to awkward guys. Check it out.

Meanwhile, also on the Good Men Project, Amanda Marcotte – who is far less forgiving of PUAs than Clarisse -- offers some specific advice for "self-described “nice guys” who claim they want non-sexist dating advice that works, but are forced to look to PUAs because there is no one else speaking to them. "

Her first tip is golden: Dudes, if you want to score with a hot slut, stop thinking of women who enjoy sex as sluts. Or, as she puts it:

Be generous about women’s motivations. 

PUA communities spend a lot of time disparaging women with words like “shallow,” “gold-digger,” and “childish,” for having what they deem to be incorrect desires. But often, women’s choices make much more sense if you assume women date for fun and companionship, just as men do. If you don’t judge men for wanting sexiness, fun, and ego-boosting from women, then don’t judge women for wanting the same. 

For the rest of her advice, see here

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42 comments:

  1. Another tip: Find a Muzak-style version of "The Bad Touch" and have it playing softly from an MP3 player hidden stealthily in your pocket. It will subliminally convince women to have NSA sex with you.

    I've never tried it, but that's because my MP3 player is in the shop right now.

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  2. You don't actually need to wear goggles.

    Unless you're Jenny Everywhere.

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  3. Alternatively, for those of us who do not pick up on flirting or other subtle social cues, there is also this method of approach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izBbP2kro-c

    This one is relevant here

    "Believe that sex is not a battle.
    The PUA model of dating is one where men are buying and women are selling, and therefore men’s job is to try to get as much sex out of women for as little a “price” as possible. This is not only sexist, but exhausting. You have more fun when your friends are having fun, right? Apply the same attitude towards dating, and you’ll become immediately hotter."

    Honestly, think about the sort of bluntness you might use in asking a friend to go rock climbing. You probably would not yell across the street at them "nice arms, I bet you are great at climbing up a rock face!" You are probably not going to try to manipulate them into going after they have told you they are not interested. You certainly are not going to drug them or kidnap them to try and coerce the activity.

    There is room for a blunt and casual sex discussion here as well. The issue is that one needs to see sex as a mutual activity and be willing to take "no" for an answer easily.

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  4. I would say:

    If you're looking for casual sex, go to a bar or whatever. Just remember that there are women who go to bars and clubs without the intention of hooking up with anyone, so if she says, "No," gtfa. Particularly if she's glaring at you, ignoring you, or holding an axe.

    If you're looking for a DATE ... gosh, there are far better places to do that. Join a club, join a sport, join a church*, join a knitting circle, do something that puts you in contact with lots of other people and where you might even just meet new friends who will help you find a date.


    *No, I don't actually recommend going to church, but if you're religious and you don't mind meeting other religious folks, it can be effective.

    If you're just trying to get sex, not being creepy, having good hygiene, and not being afraid of rejection are all good. If it's long-term stuff you're after, having something in common (other than alcohol or gaudy club outfits) helps. I don't know how many nerds I've met who are married to other nerds and met while doing nerdy, nerdy things. (I like how "nerdy" almost sounds like "dirty.")

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  5. eliza that's because nerd circles tend to go from normal to kinky in everything from conversation to action in no time flat. We're just comfortable with our awkwardness

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  6. Sex with fellow nerds is the best sex.

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  7. The Goggles? They do nothing!

    (What! Someone had to say it. Also considering the nerdiness of that quote, some nerdy woman somewhere wants to have sex with me)

    I think we need T-Shirts that say "Talk Nerdy To Me!"

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  8. avincenna, no no no. It's nerds do it periodically on the table.

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  9. MRAs believe the worst things that PUAs say about women to justify their loneliness and misogyny. PUA technique is mainly used to pick-up women in clubs that want a one-night-stand and it's obvious that many of these women will be flaky, shallow and gold-diggers. MRAs generalize that to all women. For them, all women below thirty are chasing Alpha males in clubs to have one-night-stands with them. For them, all women below thirty are flaky, shallow, slutty and gold-digger.

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  10. PUA technique is mainly used to pick-up women in clubs that want a one-night-stand and it's obvious that many of these women will be flaky, shallow and gold-diggers. MRAs generalize that to all women.

    So effin' true. I've had conversations with MRAs (including here on the M'oobz) where I try to explain for the millionth time that not all women are "hypergamous," and they often reply with something like, "Yeah well what about all those shallow women who drive to the club in their BMW and wear $5000 clothes and sprinkle powdered diamonds over their breakfast cereal huh?!?!?!"

    And I'm like, "...What about them?" If you don't like those kind of women, avoid them. It's not hard. If you honestly think they're a majority then you're not only sexist, you're blind to the existence of people who aren't upper class.

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  11. As you know, I cannot find a woman attractive unless I snort a line of diamond dust through a rolled up piece of one the works of the Dutch Masters and I expect any woman to indulge that.

    Now if you excuse me, I must spend money on frightfully pointless things till I get bankrupt. =)

    I think that attitude is that the MRM try to portray themselves as blue collar/lower class hard working men who have to face off against the rich jerks who steal all their women with their gold and platinum credit cards. It obviously cannot be personality because who would want a middle/upper class man who is soft and unmanly and works in unmanly fields. It must be a secret cabal of women whose feminist wiles seduce these inferior men with promises of breeding status in some future dystopian society which I assume will look like something out of Heavy Metal.

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  12. There is nothing wrong with wearing goggles! I will shoot you with my steam raygun now.

    Also, remember to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. If you're charming and funny, but not good-looking or good at dancing, for God's sake don't go to a club to seek a relationship. If you're a SF fan, trying to find a girlfriend at a Supernatural convention or by joining your local Rocky cast will work much better than going to church.

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  13. Also, hypothetical choice:

    A) Harvard millionaire underwear model who only wants a five minute bj and five minutes of PiV humping, with maybe a little boob fondling.

    B) 'Beta' male who can zero in on the clit like a heat-seeking missile and who never fails to ask "What turns you on?"

    I'll pick the 'beta' male every single time, and I suspect many of the women here would choose the same.

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  14. "For them, all women below thirty are chasing Alpha males in clubs to have one-night-stands with them. For them, all women below thirty are flaky, shallow, slutty and gold-digger."

    You forgot to mention that these women are also hell-bent on stealing sperm so they can get pregnant and enslave a man with child support, which we all know is worse than rape.

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  15. Lady Victoria von Syrus - Sure, but it's not like you can tell ahead of time that the "Beta" male has those additional qualities. He needs to find the opportunity to demonstrate those qualities, and if he's "Beta" then by definition that is hard for him to do.

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  16. I actually never really understood the whole Alpha/Beta concept. It's rather a daft idea. Are beta males a concept used to slag off people like myself who don't agree with the MRM. Or are they the MRM who are secretly jealous of other people's perceived good luck with the other gender?

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  17. In my experience, foggy, most "beta" men are very good at sex, when given some basic directions. They've figured out that they can't attract women with their $$$$ and their abs of steel, so they have to learn to fuck.

    Also, my dad's a millionaire (good investments) and we are far from "unimaginably rich"-- I mean, he drives a shitty car and doesn't go out to restaurants except on special occasions, and I picked my school because it was cheap. It's weird to see "old minivan and leftovers" as 1/3 of the pinnacle of male attractiveness.

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  18. He needs to find the opportunity to demonstrate those qualities, and if he's "Beta" then by definition that is hard for him to do.

    Yeah but your definition is imaginary and in no way related to reality. If you have trouble getting with women, that's a legitimate issue. I hope you find a way to work through it.

    But unless you suffer some kind of severe social disorder (in which case, my sympathies), it IS solvable. If you're not getting with women, the problem, to be blunt, is you. (Exception for the above disclaimer about social disorders.) For every type of man there are women out there attracted to it. If you're having trouble finding them, or successfully attracting them, it's something you'll have to work out. It may take time and effort.

    Or, y'know, you could decide that you're just a "beta male" and blame women for not leaping at your cock. But I guarantee you'll never solve the problem that way.

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  19. They've figured out that they can't attract women with their $$$$ and their abs of steel, so they have to learn to fuck.

    It's true. Many "alpha males" think that they're doing women a favor just by existing, so they don't actually have to put any effort into sex. They're also often too self-absorbed to pay attention to how much their partner is enjoying things.

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  20. Yeah but your definition is imaginary and in no way related to reality. If you have trouble getting with women, that's a legitimate issue. I hope you find a way to work through it.

    Nah, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the people this post is ostensibly about (well-meaning but cripplingly socially awkward men), and why I thought Lady Victoria von Syrus's post was sort of missing the point.

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  21. One of the many reasons this discussion gets so fraught is because the constraints of masculine performance put a lot of pressure on men to express their romantic longing in sexual terms, so in a lot of cases when these guys are talking about sex what they really want is intimacy on something other than a physical level. And they don't even seem to have (or to be willing to access) the vocabulary to talk about it openly. This is one of the reasons that more feminism would help the people trapped in this gender bind (you know, PHMT and all that).

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  22. trip-- It is my personal opinion that 99.99% of "I can't get a date" boils down to one of the following, and probably a combination:

    a) "I have dirty hair, a bad smell, severe acne, or a similar obvious appearance problem."
    b) "I don't talk to people. Ever. Seriously, getting me to say 'hi' is a major ordeal."
    c) "You mean pussy won't just fall on my head while I'm playing xBox?"
    d) "Female friends? What is this female friends you speak of? My social group only involves men! Manly men! With penises and everything!"
    e) "You mean if she's playing with my hair, falling asleep on my shoulder, talking about how sexy I am and loudly complaining about how she can't get a date, I should ask her out? But rejection's scaaaaary."
    f) "I only want 20-year-old blondes with big titties who will make me sandwiches and give me blowjobs without my asking."
    g) "I only want this one specific girl, and I don't CARE that she doesn't like me back. Women are bitches."

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  23. Nah, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the people this post is ostensibly about (well-meaning but cripplingly socially awkward men), and why I thought Lady Victoria von Syrus's post was sort of missing the point.

    Ah. Regardless, I simply don't think the MRA notion of that "beta males" can't get dates is inaccurate. Unless you define "beta males" as "unappealing to women," as MRAs often seem to, there are plenty of women who go for men that might be considered "beta."

    The betas who don't realize that they're capable of being sexually attractive to women (as I once didn't realize) will hopefully gain some confidence in themselves, rather than blaming women.

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  24. Regardless, I simply don't think the MRA notion of that "beta males" can't get dates is inaccurate.

    Should say "accurate," not "inaccurate." Whoops.

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  25. Oz, I think you're being a bit harsh. I went through a pretty depressed period in grad school. I smelled fine. I talked to people. I didn't play video games. I had female friends. I asked a number of them out (and went out on a lot of "platonic" dates with women who made it crystal clear they weren't interested in anything more). I was interested in a lot of different women, none of them bimbos. But my depression and self-esteem issues made it impossible to get a real date. I didn't blame women for it. I blamed myself. It wasn't until I dealt with the depression and got out of grad school that things started to change.

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  26. It's true that I was probably being a lot more snarky than I was accurate. In my defense, I was mocking trends I've seen in myself (I was a-c and e), my boyfriends and my close friends; sometimes people fucking up their own romantic lives gets me frustrated, and that leads to mockery.

    But you're right that there are a lot of problems that can keep you from getting laid besides these. Like depression and self-esteem issues! That would probably work, right there.

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  27. Oh, and "the pussy won't fall on my head while I'm playing xBox" is not mocking gamers-- I know a lot of gamers with quite active and adventurous sex lives-- but the sort of people who rarely leave the house or make an effort to have a social life, and then wonder why they can't get laid. Which is probably a symptom of social anxiety in and of itself, for that matter.

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  28. @Ozy, a millionare is unbelievably rich, even by US standards. Only about 2% of households in the US have an income of over $200,000. As the low income student who went to a high tuition private university (my scholarships and grants made it about as cost efficient as other schools), the level of standard of living expected by these students was flat out astonishing. As a law student, I am living year round on the money that is supposed to support two semesters of living expenses and still living better than I ever have in my life. When you are sixteen are living on nothing but eggs and bread for two weeks and have loaned your mom the last of the money from your paycheck to take your little sister to the doctor, let me tell you that "old minivan and leftovers" are a big fucking deal.

    However, MRAs do not talk like people who have actually been poor. If you have ever lived in a poor (or even average income) neighborhood, you do not labor long under the illusion that women are housewives who do not work and sit back taking things easy. I went to one of those schools where half of the class is gone before graduation, and women and girls were always expected to work. Not having to work outside of the house was seen as a sign that one was "rich" or "getting ahead", not as a norm or general expectation. It is upperclass (or at least raised upperclass) men who think that women in general are or could be "shallow women who drive to the club in their BMW and wear $5000 clothes". The way MRAs talk about women sets off all sorts of class red flags for me. They come of as far more Bush pretending to be blue collar than they are actual poor people.

    Seriously though, I think MRAs define alpha as "any man with some degree of confidence who does not hate women and appears to be getting laid on a semi-regular basis". The notion of "hypergamy" is just a sort of sour grapes thing-i.e. "that fat guy with the thick glasses can't be that cool, she must be with him for his money."

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  29. On second thought, the "does not hate women" might be a contested bit.

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  30. avpd0nmmng: PUA technique is mainly used to pick-up women in clubs that want a one-night-stand and it's obvious that many of these women will be flaky, shallow and gold-diggers. MRAs generalize that to all women.

    Been thinking about this lately and I'm starting to see it as the 'bad boy' thing in reverse. (And Bad Boy Cock Carousel aside, we all know SOME women do repeatedly go for, and go back to, abusive and disrespectful men - damned if I understand it either but there it is)

    But it's really common to see a guy saying 'I'm so sick of gold diggers/skanks/pampered princesses, why can't I meet a NICE girl, she doesn't have to be THAT hot', but then falls at the feet of the next blatant gold digger/skank/pampered princess who walks in flaunting the goods.

    You just think, I'm sorry you were treated that way, you (possibly) don't deserve it, but if it keeps happening then don't you think your taste in women is at least part of the problem? It's like all judge of character goes out of the window in the face of a pair of fake tits and some peroxide.

    Ozymandias: Liked the list but I do think you were being a bit harsh with b) and e), sorry! As a nervous, socially awkward woman (although not so much as I used to be) I have to say these things are not easy or fun to overcome for anyone. Rejection IS scary ;)

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  31. Ozy: And I typed that before I read your replies to David so I'll shut up now. :]

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  32. DarkSideCat: I agree that we're rich. I mean, I have friends who have been two weeks from homeless, ones who can't afford doctors when they're sick, people whose parents will never be able to retire until they're in the nursing home or dead, etc. I know I live pretty nicely: I have money for books and new clothes not from Goodwill when I want them, and I'm graduating from undergrad without debt (really inexpensive school, plus good scholarships).

    But it seems kind of weird to think "after twenty years, the house is paid off!" is the sort of lavish outlay that golddiggers dream of. I know the economy is fucked, but still.

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  33. "Also, remember to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses."

    If we start min-maxing dating then we're going to end up just having shouting matches about it over the internet and never dating again because we'll be able to effortlessly beat every encounter and it just won't be fun anymore, because seriously who wants to just throw save-or-dies at things all day long.

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  34. David Futrelle said...

    Oz, I think you're being a bit harsh. I went through a pretty depressed period in grad school. I smelled fine. I talked to people. I didn't play video games. I had female friends. I asked a number of them out (and went out on a lot of "platonic" dates with women who made it crystal clear they weren't interested in anything more). I was interested in a lot of different women, none of them bimbos. But my depression and self-esteem issues made it impossible to get a real date. I didn't blame women for it. I blamed myself. It wasn't until I dealt with the depression and got out of grad school that things started to change.


    Yeah, that pretty well describes my experience as well. A lot of these guys are depressed, discouraged, and have self-esteem issues. There's really no antidote for that but the long and difficult road to mental health and self-improvement.

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  35. I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations. They smack of overcategorization. The guys in my circles that I'd categorize as "alpha" are not people I would date--I liked them, for the most part, I just wouldn't have dated them. It's not really possible for there to be an "alpha" type that all women are attracted to.

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  36. There is another issue with a lot of MRAs. They do seem to pack a higher number of racists in their midst. Well white nationalists, a lot of their arguments are about miscegenation and interbreeding.

    Women for the most part don't find that attractive. (Unless they are racists too).

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  37. They also are too narrow-why not some men being gamma, delta, omicron?

    I would date a theta.

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  38. Would you date on omega man?

    Oh wait, Charlton Heston is dead. Plus he was pretty hard right-wing.

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  39. Sure, but it's not like you can tell ahead of time that the "Beta" male has those additional qualities. He needs to find the opportunity to demonstrate those qualities, and if he's "Beta" then by definition that is hard for him to do

    Actually, not really. I mean, there's no way to really know for sure how someone is in bed without fucking them, but there are a lot of hints you can pick up on. Like seeing it cloud over, you can guess that rain is probably happening soon without having to wait for it to actually happen.

    * Guys who dress well. They don't have to be a clothes horse, but clean, well-fitting clothing that's reasonably stylish. This indicates that they are concerned with the outward appearance they give to the world, which means they care what people think about them. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a guy who is sloppily dressed or wearing misogynistic T-shirts seems like he's only interested in doing the bare minimum to get by.

    * Attentive listening. If I say something, and am reasonably sure that the guy was paying attention and processed it, this means he cares about what I have to say. This can be extrapolated to being reasonably sure that I can tell him what I want in bed and he will be as attentive and responsive.

    * If a guy spends all of our time together talking about himself, with few to no questions about myself, or directing the conversation back to him if I say something about myself, he's likely also going to be a selfish lover. If his language is laced with subtle misogyny, sexism, gender essentialism or slut-shaming, he will probably also not take me seriously as a lover. Instead, he's just treating me as a means to an end - he doesn't actually care about me as a person, just me as a potential pussy dispenser.

    * Displays of passion. Passion, not obsession. If a guy can talk with passion about something, then I can infer that he can also become passionate in other contexts as well.

    Now, this isn't a 100% accurate guide to who's good in bed and who's not. People can surprise you, especially about this. But if these 'beta' men start treating themselves with respect and treating the women around them like actual people (instead of some strange, alien species), they'll probably start to have more success with women.

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  40. "I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations. They smack of overcategorization. The guys in my circles that I'd categorize as "alpha" are not people I would date--I liked them, for the most part, I just wouldn't have dated them. It's not really possible for there to be an "alpha" type that all women are attracted to. "

    What's not to understand? Alpha means the bad guy in the made up anecdote, beta means the oppressed guy who you're supposed to sympathize with. It's very clear cut.

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  41. "I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations."

    From what I have read, group hierarchy in our closest animal relatives, chimpanzees and bonobos, doesn't really keep any of them from having sex with whomever they want . . . whenever they want. So, in theory, if we break down the moral objections to polygamy ladies would be more willing to have the fun sexy times with whomever we want . . . whenever we want.

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  42. Still waiting for my broke-ass boyfriend to get his shit together so's I can hypergamous my way into a whole lot of money, steal his sperm, and move to the French Riviera.

    I never thought it would take this long!

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