Saturday, April 9, 2011

Guys, you're not helping: The Dear Woman video

 

The video above, which has been making the rounds of the manosphere, is one of the creepiest and most off-putting things I’ve seen since watching Dogtooth a couple of weeks ago. Actually, I take that back: Dogtooth was much less creepy and off-putting. I was so repelled by what I saw in this video that it literally took me several tries to get through the whole thing. And no, it’s not some weird misogynistic rant by the likes of Bernard Chapin. Oh, no no no. The misogynists of the world are as repelled by the video as I am, though for radically different reasons. Titled “Dear Woman,” the video was actually put together by a couple of self-described “conscious men” who think they’re doing a great favor to the women of the world.

To which I can only say: Guys, stop it, you’re not helping.

If you can stomach it, the video is worth watching in its entirety. If not, here’s what you’re missing: The video is the work of a couple of New Age gurus -- Arjuna Ardagh and Gay Hendricks, Ph.D – who, with the help of a little gaggle of guys, have written a little manifesto “apologizing” to the women of the world for all the bad shit done by men to women over the centuries. Or, as they put it:

I feel deep love, great respect and a growing sense of worship for the gifts of the feminine. I also feel deep sorrow about the destructive actions of the unconscious masculine in the past and present. I want to apologize to you and make amends for those actions, in order to bring forth a new era of co-creation with you.

The first step in “making amends,” evidently, was to gather together a group of men – some of whom seem to have been roped into it in the middle of a garden party -- and to somehow convince them to read out loud the entire text of this manifesto. (The full text is here, but it's much creepier when it's read out loud.)

There is something about this manifesto, and the men reading it, that is so “off” that it may well make your skin crawl, and make you wonder how many of the men in the video have dead bodies secreted away in the crawl spaces under their homes. A female friend I showed the video to could only make it through the first couple of minutes before switching it off in horror; one commenter on Metafilter reported that it “made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and not in a good way. Eeew.”

The creepyist, skin-crawliest part of the video has to be the section in which the assembled men talk about women’s bodies:

I honor the beauty and integrity of your body. When we worship each other through our bodies with awareness and devotion, there are no boundaries to the love that we can generate. I feel sorrow that men have used your beauty as a form of commerce in prostitution and pornography. In the grip of lust we have often lacked the skills to ask gracefully for intimacy or to take ‘No’ for an answer. I take a stand against any form of enforced or soulless commercialization of woman’s beauty, and I respect that your body belongs to you.


I honor your capacity to listen to your body and its needs for food, rest and playtime.

I feel confident that I speak for many when I say "ewww." Somehow I’m reminded of Saturday Night Live’s hot-tub-loving “lovers.”

It’s worth pointing out that the written manifesto refers to men and women “nurture[ing]” one another’s body; apparently no one noticed that the dude reading this passage in the video had turned nurturing into “worship.”

As one commenter on Metafilter put it:

“We worship women" sounds like something Buffalo Bill would have said if he had a PR agent. My guess is that they're sickos who seem really earnest at first but it turns out that they're actually trying to collect used tampons for onanistic purposes or something.

So what is it, aside from all this worshiping, that makes the video so creepy? Part of the problem is that these “conscious men” are, in their own way, as patronizing and sexist as any manosphere dudes “mansplaining” about how all women only want to fuck alpha guys. Women, in their view, are inherently peaceful earth-mother types. “I commit now to … honoring the spirituality of the divine feminine,” the guys tell us. “I honor your deep connection to the earth.” 

The manifesto is overflowing with this kind of shit. No matter how “New Age” these guys think they are, these are some truly ancient, and quite thoroughly retrograde, notions.

But that’s just what makes them wrong and misguided. What is it that causes viewers to pick up that whole serial-killer vibe?

I think the answer to this can be found in a book called The Gif tof Fear by security expert Gavin de Becker. The book attempts to explain why our intuitions about creepy people are so often correct. There’s a good reason you feel uneasy around certain people; that’s your unconscious picking up on real, if hard to pin down, signals of danger.

De Becker also lays out some of the techniques predators use in an attempt to allay the suspicions of those they’re trying to victimize. One of the sneakiest? The unsolicited promise, which often means the very opposite of what is said. When someone tells you, out of the blue, that they “aren’t going to hurt you,” it’s often a very good sign that that’s exactly what they’re going to do. When someone feels the need to tell you, apropos of nothing, that he “honor[s] the beauty and integrity of your body” and “respect[s] that your body belongs to you,” you may well want to run screaming. 

Even more than the unsolicited promises, I think it’s the unsolicited apologies in the Dear Woman video – so similar in intent to unsolicited promises -- are a large part of what is setting off alarm bells in so many viewers. When a young guy in the video takes personal responsibility “for dragging you into … wars, and for the rape, murder, broken hearts and damaged families that resulted from them,” that’s just plain … weird, given that (unless he’s some young despot I’ve never heard of) he’s not actually responsible for any of this.

The “unsolicited promise” is similar to what de Becker calls “loan sharking” – offering unsolicited “help” in order to make victims feel obligated in some way to their unwanted helpers. In the manifesto/video, this “help” is abstract, but the strategy seems to be the same:

From this day, moving forward, I vow to treat your heart as the sacred temple it is, and I commit to honoring the feminine in you and me and in my relationship to all life.
 
Uh, who the fuck asked you to treat anyone’s heart as a “sacred temple?”

The manifesto/video is also filled with examples of “forced teaming,” another strategy favored by predators who want to convince their victims that they are in fact working together to do the very same thing:
I know that by leaving the past behind and joining hands in the present, we can create a synergy of our strengths. Together, there is nothing we cannot do.

(For a fuller explanation of some of de Becker’s ideas, take a look at this post on saying “no” on Captain Awkward’s excellent blog, which I’ve drawn on heavily here.)

But there’s something else about the video that adds to the sense that something is not right here: no matter how earnest all the men in the video are trying to sound, none of them (except perhaps the two ringleaders) seem to really believe the ridiculous things they’re saying. Instead, they seem to be, with varying degrees of insincerity, mouthing a series of essentially meaningless New Age platitudes – in short, simply saying what they think women want to hear.

No one is buying this bullshit, guys. Give it up.


--

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the "Share This" or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it.

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

214 comments:

  1. I am going to have to back up and scream this now.

    PEDESTALS ARE OBJECTIFYING.

    It doesn't matter if you're treating a woman like a worthless sex object, or like a divine mother object. If you're not treating her as a person, you are being anti-feminist, stupid and wrong. GTFO.

    This is where a lot of the manosphere goes wrong, I think. They don't get that women want to be people, just like men; they think that women want to be better than men. I mean, if I thought feminism was about making women better than men, I'd hate it too. Thankfully it's not.

    P.S. David, it's okay if it's too much work, since you can get the gist of the video from the post, but would you mind doing a video transcript for people who can't see?

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  2. Jesus Horatio Christ. So far I've only made it through the first minute of that video. It's so icky.

    Women, in their view, are inherently peaceful earth-mother types.

    Yeah, this is a problem I have with a lot of New Age spiritualism. I've read a number of New Age books (mainly on Wicca), largely because I've written several stories with at least one Wiccan character, and a lot of Wiccan authors believe that nature has these inherent masculine and feminine aspects to it. Oh don't worry, they rush to assure you, men can have feminine attributes and women can have masculine attributes.

    Doesn't matter. Referring to anything as inherently masculine or feminine, whether positive or negative, is sexist. Even feminist Wiccans are often guilty of this. They seem to think that "celebrating" the supposed nurturing, loving aspect of femininity is feminist. I disagree.

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  3. Oz, the video is just them reading their manifesto; the whole text of the manifesto is on their facebook page, which I linked to. I'll make this clearer in my post.

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  4. What is that phrase? "Neither saints nor whores; we are only women." Something like that.

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  5. Once you use the word "creep" or any other form of feminine shaming language, your intellectual contribution to any exchange has ended. The same goes for the egregious usage of "sexist," "misogynist," or any other irrational, hormonal claim. Essentially you relegate your purpose to a tool to expose feminist bigotry and amuse your peers.
    Doesn't matter. Referring to anything as inherently masculine or feminine, whether positive or negative, is sexist.
    What a rational, logical, and thoughtful claim. Yes, even acknowledging tangible biological differences is sexist. Of course, that's kind of science-y, and science and engineering are evil misogynistic disciplines which somehow oppress women. And somehow being a feminist automatically makes you a better person than someone who actually contributes to society.
    I dunno, it's an honorary woman thing.

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  6. Ah, once again we are receiving transmissions from planet e4919!

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  7. *shivers* What a bunch of creepy woowoo garbage...and yes very objectifying! I want t be treated like a human being, not some goddess yuck!
    Trip, yes the labeling of every little thing as masculine and feminine is harmful and annoying.

    I should no better then to address this guy buthow can creepy or creep be feminine shaming language when it is used to describe certain behaviors of both men and women...also it is used by both men and women. Also ummmm when have feminists ever shamed science and engineering?

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  8. Well, the wife and my daughter did have quite the laugh.....priceless.

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  9. When I first saw this (or at least saw the first three minutes of it; couldn't make it any further), I just wanted to throw up my hands and yell, "Is there no middle ground?!"

    It's like a third of a step in the direction of acknowledging their male privilege and ten steps away from not being sexist fucks.

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  10. This video parrots the same old sexist stereotypes. This is the bullshit complementarism with a thin veneer of (fake) civility slapped on it. This is "A woman's place is in the kitchen/raising babies" expressed in different terms.

    For you data lovers:

    "According to Jackman (1994), engaging in stereotypic differentiation between men and women (along agentic and communal lines) accomplishes at least two things that are important for maintaining the system. First, as Hoffman and Hurst (1990) also noted, it treats each gender group as essentially well-suited to occupy the positions and roles that are prescribed for them by society. This type of “role justification” contributes to the perceived legitimacy of the status quo by characterizing cultural divisions of labor as not only fair but perhaps even natural and inevitable (Jost & Hamilton, 2005). Second, it prevents women from withdrawing completely from the system of gender relations in a societal context in which men’s competence is assumed and women’s is not (Glick & Fiske, 2001). Through the cultural ascription of favorable traits (such as warmth and virtue) to women and the assertion that feminine domains are highly valued, Jackman argues that women may be flattered into active cooperation with a patriarchal system. This process of cooptation, unlike role justification, works only on members of subordinated groups and pertains only to socially desirable trait ascriptions."

    (Details of a series of Standford studies that found results consistent with that theory and source here http://www.psych.nyu.edu/jost/Jost%20&%20Kay%20(2005)%20Exposure%20to%20Benevolent%20Sexism%20and%20Complem.pdf)

    These ideas of complimentarism do not reduce sexist justifications by men, but they do increase women going along. Complentarism, role justification, and "benevolent" sexism are key tools of patriarchy and misogyny.

    In short, David, I disagree with you that this is not "some weird misogynistic rant". On the contrary, it most definitely is.

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  11. In David's perspective and the perspective of any feminist bigot, anyone is a "creep" who either disagrees with almighty feminism or has criticism against women as women are superior and perfect and all, it just can't be.

    But feminsists don't realise the extreme female chauvinism they present.

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  12. Hahaha, Nick, how do the makers of this video fit into either of those boxes?

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  13. This type of “role justification” contributes to the perceived legitimacy of the status quo by characterizing cultural divisions of labor as not only fair but perhaps even natural and inevitable

    Classism also takes advantage of this principle. In medieval Europe, a great deal of words were written about why peasants are peasants and why lords are lords and why it has to stay that way. When the growing middle class began to reveal the falsehood of that notion, traditionalists were predicting that all these people breaking with their natural roles would mean the end of the world.

    Funny enough, traditionalists still claim that all these women and gays running around not doing as they're told will bring about the end of the world. The bigotry never really changes.

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  14. Nick, what part of "feminists want women to be people too" do you not understand?

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  15. Women, in their view, are inherently peaceful earth-mother types.

    Uh, no, I'm inherently a burn your house down type. And while I haven't done it, because you know - ostracism and jail, I have burned some bridges. And you may not call me a bitch for it, but you may call me an asshole.

    Anytime someone claims that a group of people are "inherently" something or "hard-wired" to be something regardless of their individuality, they're wrong.

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  16. The female reaction to this video has been very fascinating. The most common response is this:

    "I LOVE the idea of male slavery, collective male guilt, and all men worshiping all women as goddesses. But, the men in this video are cweeeeeepy (ie unattractive). If hawt thugs were saying these things instead, I'd be gulping it down."

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  17. Yeah...not exactly a peaceful earth-mother tye either....in fact I know no woman that is....just like I mhave never met a completly stoic, warrior manly man either...those are archatypes not real people. Which is another reason that those dudes are objectyfing...
    It would not suprise me if these two men were complete frauds trying to lure people into some sort of cult....they seem the sort...Extreme NEw Age types give me the creeps! Oops said that feminine shaming word again!

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  18. Apparently none of these men have met Mother Earth who can be a mighty tough lady when she wants to be.

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  19. Yep and look at most goddesses in ancient civilitations....they had many things they were goddess of war, wisdom, hunting, love, art, nature, and well pretty much anything you can think of....so yeah saying that there is only one type of woman is pretty fucking sexist.

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  20. These things are always so horribly misguided. Really brings the whole "feminism is the radical idea that women are people" thing to mind. And wtf is feminine energy? I wasn't aware that mass times the speed of light squared could have a gender...gahhh the sheer bs of it all is enough to make my brain explode without the helpful side of sexism.

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  21. e-string, by "creep" women usually mean a guy who uses obviously disingenuous tactics to manipulate women into emotional intimacy in order to achieve physical intimacy; he tries to manipulate them rather than making a sincere effort to interact with them. It describes a man who thinks women are too stupid to see past obvious ploys or that they don't care enough about themselves to resent this treatment. "Creep" describes behavior that is lazy, cowardly, and offensive. This type of behavior should be shamed.
    Having said that--I actually didn't see the men in this video as "creepy" until about half way through. In conservative circles you see a lot of these attempts to think through traditional gender roles in constructive ways. It's not always meant to be manipulative, it's an honest attempt to come to some sort of appreciation of women within a moral framework that the community doesn't feel it can reject. These kinds of productions are addressed to women but are actually intended for a predominantly male audience with essentialist notions of gender roles. BUT, I agree with what everyone has said about the essentialism of this view of women--it got really bad at the half-way mark for me and by the end of the video I was hard pressed not to gag and/or punch something. Seriously, women's "energy" is all about "intuition," and we need their inherent "process-oriented" view of life to get away from all the evils of civilization caused by unconscious masculine energy? So...civilization is male and nature is female. We're right back where we started then? Also, Ozy called it again, pedestals are objectifying--BINGO.

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  22. Ozymandias said...

    Nick, what part of "feminists want women to be people too" do you not understand?


    Offhand, I'd say all of it.

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  23. Usually, I'm annoyed that I can't watch videos at work. Now . . . I'm not.

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  24. Forweg, you're not listening. It's "the idea of male slavery, worship of women, and collective male guilt is creepy."

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  25. As far as war we women are sorry that like the animal kingdom males don't carry value for the simple fact that they exist as females do and as such compete for territory and resources. We are sorry that male animals are born with horns and implements of battle to secure the things we females want and then blame you for the nature we demand in you. We are sorry for all the stacked bodies of dead 18 year old boys that come home in body bags. We are sorry that all the lines between tribes and countries since the beginning of time are drawn in your blood while we have been largely spared the burdens of the worst aspects of the human condition.

    Red0660 (3 minutes ago) Spam
    How about dear men, we are sorry we women are pussies and have made you responsible for taking on all the burdens dangers and risks of forging human kind ahead and make you entirely responsible for the human condition because we prefer to use our inherent value in order to get you to do all these things for us and then blame you for anything we don't like about the nature we created in you. We are also sorry that women's health, wellbeing and needs in all regard are more important than men's and we would rather you die in order to save ourselves.

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  26. Is this a parody? We are sure this isn't from the Onion? Because DO NOT WANT. I can feel parts of my body sewing themselves shut.

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  27. I find it hilarious how feminists are delusional enough to believe women are not treated as "people" in western society.

    Wow so much bitterness and extreme paranoia there.

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  28. Is there anyway we men can help these Kangaroos with their "toxic masculinity" while they fight to draw lines between territory and resources and the females surely blame them for their aggressive nature which like male humans has been mostly a creative and constructive force???

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVq7Mo6LY-A

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  29. "We are sorry that male animals are born with horns and implements of battle to secure the things we females want and then blame you for the nature we demand in you"

    Men are blamed for every ill in the world by feminists. Little to nothing is ever the fault of women as they are perfect princesses. Ask David.

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  30. Who else here thinks nick sounds just like Stewie Griffin?

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  31. David,

    You blatantly call me a misoynist in this post. I'd like to first ask you how you define "misogyny" and then ask you to provide evidence for your claim.

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  32. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+the+definition+of+creepy
    here maybe that will help some of you who don't understand this wonderful thing called google or a fucking dictionary

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  33. Feminists just make up what misogyny and patriarchy is as they go along.

    When I have asked feminists in this blog to prove to me how patriarchy still exists in western societies like America in 2011, they usually just send me some link of what another feminist said.

    Riiight. So if I was an MRA, in this logic, I can say just because another MRA said this or that, this is proof.

    The idiocy of feminist bigotry is rife in here

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  34. Nick, did you read even a word of this post?

    Chuck, I linked to your blog because it had a handy set of links to a bunch of misogynists who have criticized the video, thus providing evidence for my assertion that misogynists have criticized it. That said, I thought your thing on women not being funny was misogynistic. And the fact that you link approvingly to a whole host of sites that are much more blatantly misogynistic on a regular basis.

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  35. Nick, I'm going to break a longstanding rule of mine, and instead of mocking you, I'll actually try to explain.

    The reason you don't understand about misogyny and the patriarchy is because your ideological bias won't allow you to. It's that simple.

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  36. I was creeped out by the 16 second mark.

    The de Becker analysis of what's creepy about this video is fascinating, but you missed the obvious part: staring that intently and continuously is creepy. Neither one of them blinked until 25 seconds in. My eyes were watering on their behalf.

    By way of comparison, here's a normal person sharing his thoughts normally (from the excellent I'm From Driftwood series). He's making eye contact with the interviewer, but he's also blinking and moving his eyes, looking around, moving his head, showing facial expressions, etc.

    The music was also creepy--not the music itself, but its continuous repetitiveness.

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  37. David,

    And you still didn't define "misogyny". That being said, would it be misogynist for me to say that men are a lot better at basketball, on average, than women? Is it misogynist for me to scoff at any assertion that that is not the case? "Misogyny", as I understand it, involves some sort of irrational hatred of women, or a desire to keep them in a place against their will. But I don't hate women, and I'm all for them being comedians if they have the chops.I'm just not willing to lie about their abilities, especially as it pertains to humor. And if you disagree with me that women are just as funny as men, you'll have to cite evidence to support your case. So far, I win that battle. More stand-up male comedians, for one. Take your own straw-poll of non-ideological men and women, and ask them who is funnier between men and women. Dollars to dog nuts they'll say men are funnier. You think that women are just as funny, but you are ideologically biased towards women and feminists. The average Joe and Jane Blow are not ideological, and they are also the ones who determine what "funny" is.

    So you call something misogynist if it posits a differences between the sexes and if it says it in less-than-diplomatic terms. Which may make me crude, but it doesn't make me a misogynist. (For the record, I won't lose any sleep over the label; I just like to engage in these semantical debates.)

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  38. If it's a parody, it would have been funnier if a Klingon warrior appeared half way through and started kicking some ass.
    But maybe that's just my "feminine" humor coming through because I'm just sooo nurturing.

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  39. oh my fucking gods
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+misogyny

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  40. Chuck, this is what you said in your post: "Women aren’t funny. Just ask anybody (besides women)."

    I'm not going to argue that there are more female comedians than male; obviously there are more male comedians. But I don't think this means that women are inherently less funny than men, much less that "women aren't funny."

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  41. David,

    So even though there are more male basketball players who earn more money at the professional level, you wouldn't also argue that men are inherently better at basketball than women?

    And I miswrote in my piece. I shouldn't have implied that women would disagree with my statement; in fact, most *women* would agree that men are funnier than women.

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  42. David, the point is, if patriarchy is so real in America 2011, it would be so damn easy to point out. Yet, no feminist can, instead, they just throw a link of what another feminist said and say this is proof.

    If patriarchy is right in your face, it would only take a few paragraphs or less to point it out.

    You people are a total fail

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  43. Matriarchy exists because another MRA said so, I tell ya

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  44. Chuck, I'm not arguing with you about basketball (yes, men tend to be better at that, partly because they also tend to be taller). Meanwhile, women are better at lactation. Generally speaking, men will beat women in penis size contests, and women will beat men in vagina-having contests. None of this has much bearing on humor, which is something that involves the brain, not other physical characteristics which are different in men and women.

    And, as I said before, the fact that there are more male comedians doesn't mean that men are inherently funnier. It might have something to do with women not wanting to put up with obnoxious drunk dudes hitting on them or calling them "cunts" every time they do a show. Or not. All I know is that there are a lot of hilarious women out there, which seems to suggest to me that women ARE funny.

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  45. "It might have something to do with women not wanting to put up with obnoxious drunk dudes hitting on them or calling them "cunts" every time they do a show."

    But when women call men "dickheads" it's a social norm.

    It's only bad in a feminist perspective when female genitalia is degraded

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  46. I laugh just as much at female comedians' jokes as I do male ones. And I watch a lot of comedy.

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  47. Soooo, anybody besides me really digging the irony here? e-string and friends show up to take you to task for criticizing this video even though it's full of stuff they'd normally slag off as being representative of slavish feminized manginas. They're so intent on the "Derp derp stop callin menz creepy!" routine it doesn't even register. Unadulterated comedy gold.

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  48. Nicko, if you want an example of patriarchy, just read Chuck's comments in this very thread. It provides a good breakdown of one of the operations of patriarchy:

    1) Systematically bar women from professions that require merit or achievement
    2) Use lack of women in these professions as evidence that women are incapable
    3) Return to step 1

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  49. Systematically bar women from professions that require merit or achievement
    Time to break out the tinfoil hats!

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  50. Time to break out the tinfoil hats!

    I know, it's so ludicrous to claim that a person's job prospects might be limited because of a group they belong to...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States

    Oh, right.

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  51. @Discount, you seriously think that women in warzones and conflicts are spared terrible violence? STFU and GTFO.

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  52. @Discount, you seriously think that women in warzones and conflicts are spared terrible violence? STFU and GTFO.

    In MRAs' imagination, wars seem to be fought in closed-off arenas where they never ever affect civilians.

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  53. Am I the only one who knows plenty of creepy, attractive men? And plenty of non-creepy, non-attractive men?

    Somehow I doubt it.

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  54. Yeah but we call each other dickheads too. And the word cunt actually has different perspectives in different societies. In the UK it's often used a lot more than it is in the US.

    You daft cunt is something you would tell a friend who just did something stupid. It's like how british people tend to not use "mother fucker" as an insult as much.

    These guys are "rather weird". Divinity? The Feminine Energy? Dude! Women just need to be treated as equals to us. I am half tempted to insult them but I think they mean well. Wrong out inexperience rather than malice.

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  55. The creepiest guys I can think of that I've known were anywhere from decent looking to really good-looking. They just also didn't know what the word "consent" meant.

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  56. I take it back, I watched the whole video. It's not just the things they are saying are creepy, its the way they stare at you.

    Do you remember all those books on "how to hypnotise women". It's like they read something like that.

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  57. David,

    As to your "women don't want to get yelled at onstage argument", I also did a post about how female audience members are generally the hecklers. Bill Hicks has a classic confrontation with a female heckler. But male comedians seem pretty good at handling these hecklers; if women stay away from the profession because they can't handle being heckled and can't respond in a funny way to the heckling, then doesn't that speak to their overall "funniness"?

    The thing that makes men funnier than women is that we are more competitive. We want to show off. We want attention for our wit. Being the more aggressive sex, men have had an interest, through history, to defuse situations that could have otherwise turned violent. Humor is part of that, and it has become ingrained in our psychology.

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  58. The thing that makes men funnier than women is that we are more competitive. We want to show off. We want attention for our wit. Being the more aggressive sex, men have had an interest, through history, to defuse situations that could have otherwise turned violent. Humor is part of that, and it has become ingrained in our psychology.

    Oh, awesome, more gender essentialist evo psych bullshit.

    nb4 Chuck or one of the other MRAs says I'm "ignoring basic biological realities," even though the above claims didn't come from a biologist so much as Chuck's ass.

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  59. I got 56 seconds into it before I got too creeped out to continue. My sense of self-preservation was screaming at me to run away before the creepy guy with his creepy creepiness and his creepy eyes crawled through my computer screen to kill me softly with the strength of his "worship."

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  60. Chuck, I really don't think that willingness to put up with harassment is correlated with the robustness of someone's sense of humor. And I'm sorry, there's no question that female comedians put up with worse shit than male comedians. It's still very much a boy's club.

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  61. "And if you disagree with me that women are just as funny as men, you'll have to cite evidence to support your case."

    and then:

    "The thing that makes men funnier than women is that we [blah blah blah utterly evidence-free pop evolutionary psychology tl;dr]"

    Uh huh.

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  62. "I thought your thing on women not being funny was misogynistic."

    Hate to break it to you David but men are the primary purveyors of comedy, romance, poetry, song, magic etc. Call it plumage of whatever the f**k you want but these things are overwhelmingly male. In fact I'd venture to say that rather than love, women dream of being loved...two drastically different things.

    Can you point out a single song a woman wrote that elevates and romanticizes the masculine???...how about a poem..??? It's not because of some sort of oppressive patriarchy either. Women don't do anything because they don't have to. Their inherent value makes their ego eclipse that of men's by many magnitudes. It also leads to a gynocentric narcissism that is intolerable at times. How's that brutal truth for a misogynistic rant aye....

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  63. Patriarchy simply means that men are part of the family and have the God given natural right to fatherhood which they do not...so give up your blatant lies. Feminism is about the creation of matriarchy.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TQndY7MWVKI/AAAAAAAAAfY/SpRFZAl1C88/s1600/ScreenShot028.jpg

    Women have their own families. Men have no obligation to women, women's children or women's families. Men have no civic or social duties to look out for anyone but ourselves. Women are now a separate socio-political and socio-economic class that men are in competition with. Common felicity between genders was killed off by women some 45 years ago you misandrist bigots. Men are waking the fu*k up....

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  64. On one level, I have to sympathize with this video. I am not a Wiccan, but I admire Wiccan ideas and their stance against sexism and racism resonates with my own social values.

    On the other hand, as people pointed out, this video is majorly, grossly sexist.

    It seems to be extremely difficult for people to accept each other as they are. I wonder why that is?

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  65. Ha ha, how do you even argue with the kind of sad goofery wafting off people like Discount? These people are so wrong they're not even wrong; there's literally nothing to even get a handle on in terms of having an argument. It's like yelling at a cloud.


    Also, if you consistently find yourself needing to invoke "God given rights" and "deals" and legality and appeals to "natural law" in your relationships with others, women OR men, I'd say you have bigger personal problems than feminism.

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  66. How's that brutal truth for a misogynistic rant aye....

    Pretty toothless tbqh

    ReplyDelete
  67. "But when women call men "dickheads" it's a social norm."

    Or call men pigs, dogs, horses asses, jack ass donkeys and throw men into garbage cans. Women have to understand that this means war. This is not my subjective interpretation either.

    Men are waking up to what women have done and are fighting back. We will win and if you insist on taking the entire society and common felicity between men and women down with it so be it.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/Sl-A3_KNn6I/AAAAAAAAALc/c3G33qdYiOE/s1600-h/ScreenShot008.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/Sl-TVobivrI/AAAAAAAAALk/nGJFwEKb3bg/s1600-h/ScreenShot010.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/Sl-UGWieQ0I/AAAAAAAAALs/2CjtwoZRNyQ/s1600-h/ScreenShot011.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/Sl-VDVXjzBI/AAAAAAAAAL0/p1IYJf-iWCc/s1600-h/ScreenShot012.jpg

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  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  69. It may not take the form of an organized gender class offensive as women have done but men in our personal lives will simply MGTOW...we are simply walking away.

    Women want men pushed to the fringes of society and the family and you will get the men and society you are creating.

    ReplyDelete
  70. "@Discount, you seriously think that women in warzones and conflicts are spared terrible violence? STFU and GTFO."

    Yes...there is not question. Now...shave your heads, sign up for the draft and get your ass to the front line to secure your own territory and resources like men have had to do for you since the beginning of time.

    I don't blame you for using your vaginas as currency and prostitution..even female fiddler crabs do it. Explains the Raw Wage Gap and why women have not lifted a finger and then claim discrimination.

    Fiddler crabs exchange sex for survival
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33624850/ns/technology_and_science-science/

    ReplyDelete
  71. "Also, if you consistently find yourself needing to invoke "God given rights" and "deals" and legality and appeals to "natural law" in your relationships with others, women OR men, I'd say you have bigger personal problems than feminism."

    Men have the God given natural right to be a part of their childrens lives. The goal of feminism was to create marriage 2.0 laws to absolve women of any liability, responsibility, commitment or reciprocal obligation to men and the sanctity of marriage. Feminists also seek to remove men's rights to our own bodies and the fruits of our labor and transfer such things to women by force.

    Again, men know damn well what women's "liberation" is all about.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Again, men owe women, women's children and women's families nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I'm just trying to keep up here. So fiddler crabs explain the wage gap?

    ReplyDelete
  74. Deny the purpose of the gynocentric ideology of "women's liberation" all you want. Men don't have to win by restoring our collective relationship and common felicity with women. We will win by everyone losing both men, women, children, family, marriage and society.

    You will increasingly see it manifest. In all elements of societal dysfunction and even violence. About 90% of ALL prison inmates come from fatherless families. Boys without fathers do poorly in education, have higher rates of depression and higher rates of violent crime. Women are getting the men they seek to create by removing men from the family and pushing men to margins of society, the family and the lives of our children.

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  75. "I'm just trying to keep up here. So fiddler crabs explain the wage gap?"

    If you don't think there is any sense to be made from nature in regard to sexual selection and gendered behavior I can't help you David.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Women work less hours, compete less for territory and resources, seek jobs out of a different modus of personal fulfillment (one which has little or nothing to do with appealing to the opposite sex), work less overtime, work less lucrative jobs (the ones that produce utilization of resources), work less dangerous jobs and as a whole work in entirely different jobs than men. Sometimes women don't even work at all....

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  77. Well, Discount, just don't go and try to cut trees down with your teeth just because you saw a beaver do it, or try to pick up a car because ants can lift many times their own body weight. Sometimes these lessons from nature are a bit tricky to apply to your own life.

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  78. I think that Julia Ward Howe would be a bit annoyed at Discount's description of her contribution to the celebration of manhood.

    ReplyDelete
  79. You are drawing inconsistent variables here David. We are not ants and beavers but we are male and female. Go ahead draw no wisdom from anything but your free will deterministic ideas of individual relativism.

    Your human ego deceives you. It's all a social construct right. Gender, society, gendered behavior, differences and interrelations are all a mailable social construct. I've heard it before.

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  80. All right then, I'll stick to gender relations in the animal kingdom. The male seahorse gestates and gives birth to seahorse babies. Clownfish sometimes change their sex. Male bees have exploding balls. One kind of octopus has a detachable penis that swims by itself to impregnate the female.

    So what lessons should we draw from all this?

    http://www.neatorama.com/2007/04/30/30-strangest-animal-mating-habits/

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  81. We should be discounting Discount's opinions?

    ReplyDelete
  82. "free will deterministic ideas of individual relativism. " I think that exemplifies Discount's statements. They are bizarre ramblings so incoherant and self contradictory that it is impossible to make any semblence of a sensible position from them. Either discount lives in some place utterly free of logic and cognitive dissonance, or discount is trolling.

    ReplyDelete
  83. men in our personal lives will simply MGTOW...we are simply walking away.

    So go ahead and do it already. Why are you sticking around talking to us feminazis and manginas when you could instead be going your own way?

    I would start by not typing "manboobz.com" into your browser anymore. The DNS chooses the way that that leads you, so you can't go your own.

    ReplyDelete
  84. What Elizabeth said. Just like FeministTrollQueen, Discount is telling us exactly what s/he is in the name - someone to be discounted.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Lady Victoria von Syrus said...
    "What Elizabeth said. Just like FeministTrollQueen, Discount is telling us exactly what s/he is in the name -

    someone to be discounted."

    Lol, our debate is over it seems. Nothing to work with here but ignorance....next

    triplanetary said...
    "men in our personal lives will simply MGTOW...we are simply walking away. So go ahead and do it already. Why

    are you sticking around talking to us feminazis and manginas when you could instead be going your own way?"

    Lol...debate comes to an end again...nothing to work with here...next

    DarkSideCat said...
    "free will deterministic ideas of individual relativism. " I think that exemplifies Discount's statements.

    They are bizarre ramblings so incoherant and self contradictory that it is impossible to make any semblence

    of a sensible position from them."

    Fail again.... These are philosophical concepts DarksideCat..You are spending to much time alone with your

    cats and without a man of course...next

    Elizabeth said...
    "We should be discounting Discount's opinions?"

    Ohhhhh more intellectual vacuity...next

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  86. David Futrelle said...
    "All right then, I'll stick to gender relations in the animal kingdom. The male seahorse gestates and gives

    birth to seahorse babies. Clownfish sometimes change their sex. Male bees have exploding balls. One kind of

    octopus has a detachable penis that swims by itself to impregnate the female.So what lessons should we draw

    from all this?"

    FINALLY...AT LEAST SOME SORT OF PROCESS IS GOING ON UP STAIRS...

    Listen David, my point is simply that we are not separate from the world around us. Human beings do not

    exist in a vacuum apart from other processes we see in the world around us. Human beings are animals whether

    you like to admit it or not. We are not Gods, we are not something special beyond our adaptive trait of

    intelligence.

    My point is that we have a lot more in common with the world around us than not. My point is that we do not

    operate from Free Will alone and that despite what feminists will tell you there are real biological

    differences between male and female and different roles we play hence the existence of two genders to begin

    with. In fact I venture to say that men and women in many regards are opposites in every way.

    Despite what feminists believe we are supposed to be complimentary and operate in symbiosis. We are supposed

    to fit together like a glove. We are supposed to need each other. Believe me I have heard ENOUGH about "toxic

    masculinity". I had to sit through a semester of "women's studies" constantly being demeaned and denigrated

    for being male.

    I had to look at illustrations showing girls literally rolling their eyes at the inferior and violent male:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/SWA7reY3_DI/AAAAAAAAAAc/UbDMBtCcjhc/s1600-h/ScreenShot004.png

    There is a reason for this David: "After analyzing the imaging data for the entire group, the researchers

    found that the participants showed activation in the brain's mesocorticolimbic center, the region typically

    associated with reward and addiction. Male brains, however, showed much greater activation, and the amount of

    activation was correlated with how much territory they gained. (This wasn't the case with women.) Three

    structures within the reward circuit - the nucleus accumbens, amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex - were also

    shown to influence each other much more in men than in women. And the better connected this circuit was, the

    better males performed in the game."

    The findings indicate, the researchers said, that successfully acquiring territory in a computer game format

    is more rewarding for men than for women.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/SW84Yu9VRDI/AAAAAAAAAFM/aB-ARWKTQ68/s1600-h/8.bmp

    If women don't like it they can go to their own land, acquire their own resources and leave men the hell

    alone. I will not tolerate misandrist bigotry pouring out of the mouths of women and their pseudo scientific

    bullshit courses that denigrate the masculine.

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  87. I don't think harassment at clubs is the main reason there are so female comedians--I think it's mostly because of our cultural comedic expectations.

    Most people would consider things like slapstick to be just not funny if it happened to a woman. It might be considered unseemly for women to do dirty jokes or body part humor. Women very rarely mug for the camera, for whatever reason. Result: Women in comedies are virtually always the straight man (pardon the terminology). And straight men don't lend themselves to solo or stand-up comedy.

    But of course women can be funny. My favorite female comedian? Kristen Wiig as SNL correspondent Judy Grimes. (Just kidding!)

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  88. The excessive line breaks are making Discount's comments look like beatnik poetry.

    ReplyDelete
  89. cboye said...
    "The excessive line breaks are making Discount's comments look like beatnik poetry."

    Lol...I love it...Anything intelligent to add to the conversation? The line breaks occurred after copying and pasting from my blog but for you they are intentional.

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  90. I hate to break it to you but women are so not funny that they had to request affirmative action be given to them because the people hosting the recent South By South West festival filled their comedy line up guest list with the funniest comedians they know...all men.

    They had to send some of the men home to bring women on stage. Can't women just accept male display behavior and ability for what it is instead of feeling all inferior?

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  91. If I were a woman I'd be embarrassed.

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  92. So basically Discount believes that men are superior because they like to obtain more territory and resources regardless of consent of owner. Since women apparently do not feel the same need to be conquering bastards so therefore it is all our fault men go to war.

    Contradiction you make Discount.

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  93. And yes, I was being intentionally bizarre in my statements because your premise is bizarre.

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  94. Discount, everyone else on this blog seems to have mastered the tricky art of copying and pasting without including accidental line breaks. In fact, I think the rest of us mastered this skill when we were forwarding emails around in 1998, in the nascent days of the internet.

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  95. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/SWA7reY3_DI/AAAAAAAAAAc/UbDMBtCcjhc/s1600-h/ScreenShot004.png

    I don't really know what you're trying to get across here. Virtually every thread here on Manboobz has a few comments about how we feminists don't generally like gender essentialism. So none of us here are going to agree with the premise of that image. So... are you attacking us for the content of that image? Or are you just devoid of any coherent point beyond "fuck wimminz"?

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  96. I didn't find either one of them "creepy", just deluded or misguided.

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  97. "So none of us here are going to agree with the premise of that image."

    Well none of you here speak the message of main stream gender feminism now do you. Am I angry yes I'm angry. I and many other men have the right to be.

    A movement is brewing. We are in the process of consciousness raising...a feminist term. From there comes intellectual coalescence and then propagation in our personal lives or as a class. Either way things will work themselves out of the system the good way or the bad way.

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  98. Discount said... "If I were a woman I'd be embarrassed."

    I think if you were a woman, women would be embarrassed.

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  99. Well I take that back..your just backpedaling and in denial. That's what this site is about. Furthermore, David, as a homosexual man has no understanding or right to speak about relationships and understanding between men and women from the primary perspective of the heterosexual man.

    As such he does not speak for us nor the hetero male experience of gender relations.

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  100. Yeah, Dave, U R teh ghey!

    Boy, he really told you a thing or two. Yes indeedy.

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  101. What's this "us" shit, sport? Far as I can tell, only person you're qualified to speak for is you. Maybe. You damn sure don't speak for me or any other "hetero male" around here who hasn't dedicated their lives to being a miserable crotch lesion because you're not getting the top-shelf women you think is your genetic due.

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  102. Lol the old you just can't get laid remark...classic....sport : ) Unlike yourself I don't define myself around the acceptance of women. Your comment is very revealing. This seems to be central to your validation of your masculinity...what a shame.

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  103. Us meaning heterosexual men... I wasn't talking about you. David does not speak from the heterosexual man's experience nor does he live it in relation to women...does that make any sense to you?

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  104. Besides you do know whey David's blog exists don't you...poison in, poison out. The damage has already been done. He is part of the fallout. It will only grow. What is it that you plan to do about it?

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  105. Discount: he was saying you have unrealistic standards that you cannot attain not that you cannot get laid. And you make very little sense. Please go back to trolling on Reddit. I am sure you can come up with some new not very witty name.

    Scarecrow: most of the guys on there seem earnest if misguided but a couple of them I would not want to be alone with ever.

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  106. No, you define yourself around your contempt for women. Elizabeth is correct, the standards you lot tend to have is entirely what I'm talking about, but if you've convinced yourself that the real or perceived personality problems you encounter in the world around you can be tracked mainly to one gender, you're a fucking idiot and I could care less whether your motivation is an abysmal track record with women or not. I just usually find that most of the douchebuckles like yourself end up where you are because you'd rather blame other people for your own failings. My apologies if your douchebucklery comes from an entirely different source.

    And mourn not for my masculinity, sparky. I'm in much better shape there than anyone who lives in constant fear that his male peers might catch him doing something considered "feminine". :)

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  107. "I'm in much better shape there than anyone who lives in constant fear that his male peers might catch him doing something considered "feminine". :)"

    You must mean male value is defined by external utility and that a man is not something that is by default but one must "be a man". You must mean that unlike women men do not carry inherent value to the opposite sex for the simple fact that we exist...in this you would be correct. You must mean other men police each other to exemplify their external utility or "being a man" over another..true.

    The only person I have to "be a man" for is myself. We as men owe women nothing in external utility...they are on their own. It is not men who place these expectations of external utility and uninherent value upon men....it is women. Men simply are the enablers of women's expectations and exemplify their status of external utility of being men over one another.

    In this I do not participate because again, the only person I have to "be a man" for is myself. Again, men do not owe any form of expectations to "be a man" to women. Women can "woman up" by themselves.

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  108. "but a couple of them I would not want to be alone with ever."

    Don't worry, none of them would ever want to be with you because you would probably rape them, deprive them of rights and control over their own bodies, the fruits of its labor, and rob them of their children. Those men..like many know that they owe women, women's families and women's fatherless bastard children nothing.

    Take your "liberation" and shove it up your ass. Get a job and support yourselves and your own families and your own children. Men have no obligation to contribute to the matriarchal family..get it.

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  109. How dare women call the fathers of fatherless bastard children "deadbeats". How dare "independent" women expect men to support a woman's family. Women initiate 70% of divorce and of the 30% initiated by men few involve children.

    Men know damn well what Marriage 2.0 laws women created are about.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TQsU8ZTuT4I/AAAAAAAAAfw/5bhYbzlmpHM/s1600/ScreenShot032.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TQndY7MWVKI/AAAAAAAAAfY/SpRFZAl1C88/s1600/ScreenShot028.jpg

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  110. Go have your sex in the city lifestyles. 1 in 4 women carry a disease, their cervix and wombs rot from their body while any sign of life is vacuumed out and thrown in the garbage. Our marriage rates are at an historic low, fatherless bastard children at historic highs and our domestic birth rate below replacement levels. This is a demographic nightmare for any civilization and can not be maintained without immigration.

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  111. Huh. I'm not gay at the moment. But after reading all this from Discount here I'm thinking of converting. Women sound terrible!

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  112. By the way this is not the first time this has happened in history.

    Some short years before the Roman Republic descended into dictatorship the Roman family was in tatters and its birth rate below replacement levels. Women routinely left their newborn children on the steppes to die of exposure and this was legitimized by the philosophers and common culture of the time. Families were no longer formed and debauchery became normalized:

    "If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance.” So proclaimed the Roman general, statesman, and censor.

    Still, he went on to plead, falling birthrates required that Roman men fulfill their duty to reproduce, no matter how irritating Roman women might have become.

    "Since nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them, nor live in any way without them, we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure."

    Go forth...enjoy your temporary pleasures and the newfound decomposability of men from a place in the family and the lives of our children. Live your liberated sex in the city lifestyle. Go buy some shoes.

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  113. "Women sound terrible!"

    No they are just incapable of seeing themselves as fallible or culpable for the state of our social fabric, gender relations, marriage and family in any way.

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  114. I preferred "decomposability."

    I'm sure you do.

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  115. "If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance.” So proclaimed the Roman general, statesman, and censor."


    Isn't this the whole theme of MTGOW in a nutshell?

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  116. Discount, as a Hetero Male I'd appreciate it if you didn't make statements on behalf of such a vast group. The people within such a large group are likely to have experienced a large array of events and have a large array of opinions; based on my experiences with women and the literature I have read, I don't agree with a lot of what you have said, whereas I expect you do agree with a lot of what you have said.

    Let's do this case by case, more or less from the top.
    Italicised font is yours, or a summary by me with notes in parentheses. I've cut as much of the vertical whitespace as possible while retaining readability.

    Hate to break it to you David but men are the primary purveyors of comedy, romance, poetry, song, magic etc. Call it plumage of whatever the f**k you want but these things are overwhelmingly male. In fact I'd venture to say that rather than love, women dream of being loved...two drastically different things.
    Can you point out a single song a woman wrote that elevates and romanticizes the masculine???...how about a poem..??? It's not because of some sort of oppressive patriarchy either. Women don't do anything because they don't have to. Their inherent value makes their ego eclipse that of men's by many magnitudes. It also leads to a gynocentric narcissism that is intolerable at times.


    I'd say that you're being presumptuous and hypocritical here, because later you challenge David's ability to speak out as a member of his gender based on your evaluation of his sexuality yet here you assert that you know what women as a collective dream of (rather than love... of being loved).

    The aim of feminism is also not to be put on a podium and idolised (that was the whole point of making this blog post as far as I can make out), or to be elevated and romanticised; it's to be made equal, legally and socially. "Romanticising the feminine" usually amounts to objectification - "I don't mean to be rude but tonight I'm loving you ♫" essentially amounts to "I'm going to have sex with you".

    In relation to anything related to intellect (the arts included) the sexes are on an equal playing field. There may be more professionals of either gender within a field but that is not necessarily correlated with the gender's ability to perform in that field, it is merely indicative of make-up of that field at that given time, no more, no less.
    In fields such as basketball, where there is an element of physical strength and size involved, Men are more likely to perform better than women. That much is indisputable. In fields related to the mind, saying one gender is clearly superior to another is a fairly shortsighted judgement.

    edit: typo

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  117. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  118. ...I can't seem to post my reply to Discount, it's all getting eaten by the removed by author post. I'll just post them all in parts and assume they're going to a moderation queue?

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  119. As a short aside ,I'd suggest that as far as artistic trends go (and therefore very generally speaking), popular music by female artists is either about loving someone, being loved by someone, or being hurt emotionally or physically, whereas most popular music by male artists is either about a woman being sexually attractive, loving someone, or overcoming some sort of obstacle in their life.
    Looking at the "bad" elements there, women seem to feel strongly about being hurt emotionally and physically and men seem to feel strongly about some woman being attractive, however looking at it as a whole, the scene is entirely contingent on whatever artist is popular at any given time.
    For example, Eminem makes music about his own life and the themes vary wildly. The Lonely Island (along with Akon) make music about having just had sex. Rhianna has made music about being unhappy with her relationship. Hellogoodbye make music about being sort of happy sometimes then unhappy but in a cute way about theoretical relationships.
    The only safe thing to draw from scenes as large as "Popular Music" is that people have different experiences and that those experiences are usually reflected in some way in their music. Anything more specific is contingent on the artists in the scene (feel free to prove me wrong with some data, this is conjecture)

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  120. Patriarchy simply means that men are part of the family and have the God given natural right to fatherhood which they do not...so give up your blatant lies. Feminism is about the creation of matriarchy.
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TQndY7MWVKI/AAAAAAAAAfY/SpRFZAl1C88/s1600/ScreenShot028.jpg
    Women have their own families. Men have no obligation to women, women's children or women's families. Men have no civic or social duties to look out for anyone but ourselves. Women are now a separate socio-political and socio-economic class that men are in competition with. Common felicity between genders was killed off by women some 45 years ago you misandrist bigots. Men are waking the fu*k up....

    Using the definition found here, you're wrong. Patriarchy means that males are in power, and you aren't at liberty to redefine that as you please in a discussion dependent on such definitions holding true.
    You're also approaching this discussion from a minority viewpoint, not to mention an illegal one, as in most developed countries as far as I'm aware both parents have a parental obligation to their children regardless of whether they maintain custody or not unless they lack the means to do so; if you sire a child and pack up and leave you're legally obliged to send money to go towards raising that child.
    As much as you might disagree with the cultural norm, you can't just ignore it or declare it as invalid, and if speaking out against such a norm it generally helps to bring forth suggestions for change rather than angrily stating your opinion.

    Or call men pigs, dogs, horses asses, jack ass donkeys and throw men into garbage cans. Women have to understand that this means war. This is not my subjective interpretation either.
    Men are waking up to what women have done and are fighting back. We will win and if you insist on taking the entire society and common felicity between men and women down with it so be it.


    Some men and some women have done horrible things to other people. The majority of people have done some bad things to some other people. Women as a collective do not target men. Men as a collective do not target women. Individuals therein, however, do.

    There is no war here. That's not the point.
    Be angry at the individual, not at the collective. That is the point.

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  121. Yes...there is not question. Now...shave your heads, sign up for the draft and get your ass to the front line to secure your own territory and resources like men have had to do for you since the beginning of time.
    The reason you don't see this is that women are legally barred from being in frontline combat roles.
    However, women do take part in conflicts regardless, see here and here for two examples of women serving in the air force.

    Australia is undergoing various investigations at the moment into sexual misconduct in the military (both male-male (usually officer-soldier) misconduct and male-female misconduct, as well as female-male misconduct if such a case arises) but is also looking to allow women into all military roles contingent on fitness (physical, intellectual and psychological - same as for men). Good news for equality.

    Men have the God given natural right to be a part of their childrens lives. The goal of feminism was to create marriage 2.0 laws to absolve women of any liability, responsibility, commitment or reciprocal obligation to men and the sanctity of marriage. Feminists also seek to remove men's rights to our own bodies and the fruits of our labor and transfer such things to women by force.
    Wait, before you seemed to be stating that a man could pack up and leave whenever he liked and that the children were essentially the woman's property; which system are you an advocate of?

    Feminists also do not seek to remove men's rights to their bodies. Feminists seek equality for women, nothing more, nothing less. They don't really want much to change for men at all, I don't think we're actually a large part of the equation; there are aspects of general male behaviour that should change but for the most part it's a movement for large scale social and political change with the result that women and men are equal in the eyes of the law and that that is reflected in how they're treated by and large in society.

    Again, men owe women, women's children and women's families nothing.
    Oh no, wait, now you're back to "fuck women". This inconsistency bugs me a little.

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  122. Deny the purpose of the gynocentric ideology of "women's liberation" all you want. Men don't have to win by restoring our collective relationship and common felicity with women. We will win by everyone losing both men, women, children, family, marriage and society.
    You will increasingly see it manifest. In all elements of societal dysfunction and even violence. About 90% of ALL prison inmates come from fatherless families. Boys without fathers do poorly in education, have higher rates of depression and higher rates of violent crime. Women are getting the men they seek to create by removing men from the family and pushing men to margins of society, the family and the lives of our children.

    You're again treating feminism as a "competition" to be "won"; that's not the case.
    Feminism isn't a eugenics excercise like you seem to believe, and women certainly aren't removing men from the family. The only data provided here are relevant to male child welfare issues and not feminism, the two fields are connected but distict: they're both about fair treatment.

    Women work less hours
    And get paid less per hour.

    seek jobs out of a different modus of personal fulfillment (one which has little or nothing to do with appealing to the opposite sex)
    Why should anyone choose a career based on appealing to the opposite sex?

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  123. Your human ego deceives you. It's all a social construct right. Gender, society, gendered behavior, differences and interrelations are all a mailable social construct. I've heard it before.
    Listen David, my point is simply that we are not separate from the world around us. Human beings do not exist in a vacuum apart from other processes we see in the world around us. Human beings are animals whether you like to admit it or not. We are not Gods, we are not something special beyond our adaptive trait of intelligence.

    I don't think David's ego is the problem here.
    Your point previously was not that we're separate from the world around us, it was that women were kicking men out of the family (which they're not), then that men didn't have to be a part of the family if they don't want to (which they do, at least in a monetary sense), then that women's liberation was a competition.
    David never challenged that we were animals nor posited that we were special, you're putting words in his mouth.
    The fact that our social constructs are based on that trait of intelligence means that human behavioural studies must be conducted in a different way to most other animal behavioural studies: most human behaviour is learned, whereas to a large extent most animal behaviour is genetically determined. You can't apply the label "territorial behaviour" to everything a male does that's agressive as he may be doing it for a large array of reasons (stress, substance, hormonal imbalance due to puberty, peer pressure).

    My point is that we have a lot more in common with the world around us than not. My point is that we do not operate from Free Will alone and that despite what feminists will tell you there are real biological differences between male and female and different roles we play hence the existence of two genders to begin with. In fact I venture to say that men and women in many regards are opposites in every way. Despite what feminists believe we are supposed to be complimentary and operate in symbiosis. We are supposed to fit together like a glove. We are supposed to need each other. Believe me I have heard ENOUGH about "toxic masculinity". I had to sit through a semester of "women's studies" constantly being demeaned and denigrated for being male.
    Indeed there are differences but for the most part they are not really manifest, men and women these days are rarely at their biological peak. You are wrong in venturing that men and women in many regards are opposites in every way, men and women are very similar in many ways (very similar anatomy (genital differences and secondary sex characteristics aside), near-identical ways of learning, indistinguishable differences in cognitive capacity) and to say they are opposites is about as rational as saying "soap is for all intents and purposes identical to cheese".
    Feminism is also not about dividing the sexes, though I think I've covered that.

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  124. There is a reason for this David: "After analyzing the imaging data for the entire group, the researchers found that the participants showed activation in the brain's mesocorticolimbic center, the region typically associated with reward and addiction. Male brains, however, showed much greater activation, and the amount of activation was correlated with how much territory they gained. (This wasn't the case with women.) Three structures within the reward circuit - the nucleus accumbens, amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex - were also shown to influence each other much more in men than in women. And the better connected this circuit was, the better males performed in the game." The findings indicate, the researchers said, that successfully acquiring territory in a computer game format is more rewarding for men than for women.
    As interesting as that is, cherry picking one study doesn't "prove" anything, nor does indicating that men are more territorial than women do much good for your point. I'm not aware of anyone here disputing that there are differences in how men and women operate, they just want women to be treated equally.

    If women don't like it they can go to their own land, acquire their own resources and leave men the hell alone. I will not tolerate misandrist bigotry pouring out of the mouths of women and their pseudo scientific bullshit courses that denigrate the masculine.
    It's worth noting that throughout your comments you've sounded fairly biased yourself. Note that no-one here is being misandrist or denigrating the masculine, they are commenting on mysogynistic events on the internet and deploring those mysogynists, not deploring men as a collective.

    Well none of you here speak the message of main stream gender feminism now do you. Am I angry yes I'm angry. I and many other men have the right to be.
    I think you'll find that almost everyone here speaks the message of mainstream feminism, actually. You seem to equate radical feminism with mainstream feminism. Why do you have the right to be angry, and what about? About feminism? About people supporting the right for women to be treated as social and legal equals? That seems like an illogical thing to be angry about, not to mention fairly rude, similar to being angry at a starving child for requesting food.


    You'll notice I've missed a few points but I'd appreciate it if you payed attention to what I have said not what I haven't; then go on to enquire as to a response to your other words, I've likely just missed them as it's getting late here.

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  125. Women initiate 70% of divorce

    Yeah, that's because women are more likely to be the victims of spousal abuse, so they have a hell of a lot more reason on average to get out of a marriage.

    @David
    Huh. I'm not gay at the moment. But after reading all this from Discount here I'm thinking of converting. Women sound terrible!

    I know. I used to love cupcakes but now I can't eat them because I'm afraid they'll bite me. :(

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  126. @Discount, my BA is in philosophy, I considered going for a Ph.D., and I have written twenty page arguments on details of Frankfurt style counterexamples. The group of people who know more than me on this topic is a rather small one. Try again, assface. Note: Learning the meanings of words and concepts prior to using them could be helpful to you.

    @David, maybe you could come be gay with me, considering that Discount has made huge assumptions about my gender and suggested I fuck more guys. What's a trans masculine bisexual genderqueer to do, eh?

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  127. Discount, if you actually believe half the BS you're writing, I'd suggest wrapping yourself in caution tape and carrying a megaphone around to warn women to stay as far away from you as possible.

    "Don't worry, none of them would ever want to be with you because you would probably rape them, deprive them of rights and control over their own bodies, the fruits of its labor, and rob them of their children. Those men..like many know that they owe women, women's families and women's fatherless bastard children nothing."

    So, men don't have children or families, because women rob them of it? Sounds like somebody has a case of womb envy. You know, once we can get that incubator developed, you won't have to worry about women aborting babies you want to keep. Unless, you know, you're controlling and/or abusive and she honestly couldn't stomach the thought of you dealing with children. Then maybe you got a few more problems than an incubator can solve.

    And dudes, seriously, you have more control here than you realize. You have the right to refuse sex without protection. If the women forces herself on you anyway even after you make it clear that you don't want unprotected sex, it's rape. You can take it to court if you want. Also, if you do have protected sex, but she gets pregnant anyway and decides to keep the baby, you don't have to claim paternity (though if you're married, it's assumed that you're the father). Or at least, that seems to be the way it works in the United States.

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  128. Discount-the only way you would be happy is if women were simultaneously subordinate to men and able to completely support themselves and any children that they only had with permission from you.

    Which is contradictory in of itself again.

    Also, accusing me of being a rapist is not very logical since I said I would not want to be anywhere near these men. If I was, why would I rape them? Try to actually use some kind of logic here.

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  129. What's especially odd about these MGTOW guys is that the women they describe bear no resemblance to the women I actually know if my life--and I work in a profession that is comprised of at least 2/3 women. I don't know any female rapists (though I'm sure they exist). Virtually all of the women I know are employed and support themselves--sometimes making more money than their husbands/partners. I don't even know any women who truly want to make a go of family life without any male influence whatsoever. Even the lesbian couples whom I know have male friends and recognize the importance of having male role models for their children.

    It's almost as if the MGTOWers are projecting, or something.

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  130. Okay, so taking into account Captain Bathrobe's last comment, let's consider some of the things MRAs in general appear to believe about reality:

    1) Everybody lives an upper-class lifestyle
    2) Wars only affect the soldiers who fight them
    3) Women think men have cooties
    4) Women are all housewives

    So it's official. MRAs have the worldview of a 6-year-old.

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  131. 1 in 4 women carry a disease, their cervix and wombs rot from their body while any sign of life is vacuumed out and thrown in the garbage.

    Per this comment, Trip, I would add:

    5) Girls do have cooties.

    6) Ladyparts are icky, except for making babies.

    I wouldn't be so unfair to 6 year-olds as to compare them to MRAs or MGTOWs, however.

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  132. FWIW, my five year-old son plays with girls all the time.

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  133. Geti, for some reason the spam filter grabbed a whole bunch of your comments. I let them through and they're all up now.

    Everyone else, especially Discount, I'd recommend scrolling up to see them.

    ReplyDelete
  134. David, good to know, they seemed to be vanishing so I kept a backup but I'm relieved that they're up now.

    Glad you approve, keep doing what you're doing.

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  135. Elizabeth said...

    A natural born charmer eh CB?
    April 11, 2011 3:59 PM


    Apparently so. He now has a little friend whom he insists he's going to marry. He also has said that he intends to set a trap for her and keep her in a cage. This was the point where I felt obligated to step in and (after validating that he likes his friend very much) explain the voluntary nature of marriage in modern society. I'm not sure he was convinced.

    Fortunately, most 5 year-olds outgrow this sort of thing.

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  136. "Go have your sex in the city lifestyles. 1 in 4 women carry a disease, their cervix and wombs rot from their body while any sign of life is vacuumed out and thrown in the garbage. Our marriage rates are at an historic low, fatherless bastard children at historic highs and our domestic birth rate below replacement levels. This is a demographic nightmare for any civilization and can not be maintained without immigration. "

    And at this point, Discount, I don't see how it could be any clearer that you define yourself by your hate. Deprived of it, I would not be surprised if you simply collapsed in upon yourself like an oil rig fire deprived of oxygen.

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  137. Was that not the plot of Boxing Helen or whatever that movie was called?

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  138. Deprived of it, I would not be surprised if you simply collapsed in upon yourself like an oil rig fire deprived of oxygen.

    And then he would sink and cause an open well to start spewing hundreds of millions of barrels of oil into the ocean?

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  139. "And then he would sink and cause an open well to start spewing hundreds of millions of barrels of oil into the ocean?"

    Currently the only difference between this and the toxic crap he's all ready spewing is that the damage he's causing to the environment around him isn't as obvious.

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  140. "The aim of feminism is also not to be put on a podium and idolised (that was the whole point of making this blog post as far as I can make out), or to be elevated and romanticised; it's to be made equal, legally and socially."

    What are you talking about??? Women have more "rights" "choices" "privileges" and dominance over the social, political, economic and over all resource distribution than men do.

    Most resources flow to women. They own 60% of the nations wealth, earn 60% of college degrees, have all the rights in marriage and thus divorce, are the only gender that has conception rights both pre and post conception, rights over the fruits of their labor and outearn men by an average of 8% in every major metro city in the U.S.

    They have better healthcare provided to them, better health in every measure, longer life span, are not required to serve their country by Selective Service OF ANY KIND, better educational opportunities through women first Affirmative Action and have ownership over men's bodies and the fruits of men's labor including owning children.

    Men are not even considered a necessary part of the process of conception. Male genes are sold through the mail according to what celebrity they look like. Men are not even considered a necessary part of the family.

    I have no idea what you are talking about!

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  141. "if you sire a child and pack up and leave you're legally obliged to send money to go towards raising that child."

    Men don't pack up an leave in nearly the proportion that women do. Women initiate 70% of all divorce and of the 30% initiated by men few involve children. Women are the majority of those who abandon their families.

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  142. "Or call men pigs, dogs, horses asses, jack ass donkeys and throw men into garbage cans."

    -"Be angry at the individual, not at the collective."

    If you haven't noticed the above portrayal of men IS the collective pop cultural expression toward men as you can see by the links I posted with the comment. The links are screenshots from Sony commercials, Roomba Robotics commercial and others. The commercials that display men this way are primarily aimed at appealing to women. There is a reason they validate women's view of men in these commercials...because it is true of women's view of men...it works....it sells.

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  143. "Men have the God given natural right to be a part of their childrens lives. The goal of feminism was to create marriage 2.0 laws to absolve women of any liability, responsibility, commitment or reciprocal obligation to men and the sanctity of marriage. Feminists also seek to remove men's rights to our own bodies and the fruits of our labor and transfer such things to women by force."

    -"Wait, before you seemed to be stating that a man could pack up and leave whenever he liked and that the children were essentially the woman's property; which system are you an advocate of?"

    No I am referring to after the fact...when women abandon their family.

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  144. "Women work less hours"

    "-And get paid less per hour."

    No...the Raw Wage Gap is based on a measurement of the whole of the workforce and the disparity between what men and women produce as a whole of the labor market.

    "seek jobs out of a different modus of personal fulfillment (one which has little or nothing to do with appealing to the opposite sex)"

    "-Why should anyone choose a career based on appealing to the opposite sex?"

    Don't play stupid.

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  145. Discount, women *also* get paid less per hour, on average.

    ReplyDelete
  146. "indistinguishable differences in cognitive capacity"

    No it is a proven fact that men are represented at the top and bottom of the dimorphic curve in broad spectrum IQ tests. This is due to hypergamous female preferences in sexual selection. The curve is proportional at the top and bottom. Feminists don't care about the bottom of the curve, those men can end up under a bridge like the 85% of street homeless men sleeping under bridges. They also seek to remove men from the top percentiles of representation by creating Affirmative Action and Title IX laws to forcefully remove men from these ares of representation.

    Here is the curve: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-b0zTyfXcvvc/TVe_8sCyPDI/AAAAAAAAAhk/xxFgCkyxKI8/s1600/ScreenShot020.jpg

    There is more dimorphic variance between males in sexually selective traits for a reason.

    HELENA CRONIN: Philosopher, London School of Economics; director and founder Darwin@LSE; author, The Ant and the Peacock

    More Dumbbells But MMore Nobels: Why men are at the top:

    http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_10.html#cronin

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  147. "I'm not aware of anyone here disputing that there are differences in how men and women operate, they just want women to be treated equally."

    How are women treated unequally? How about how men are treated unequally and fair worse than women?

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  148. Discount, you are aware that what Cronin is suggesting is a *hypothesis.* I simply don't buy it. IQ and success are only loosely related; there are many other factors. Remember who was the last president of the US? Not what most of us would call a genius.

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  149. "Women initiate 70% of divorce"

    -"Yeah, that's because women are more likely to be the victims of spousal abuse, so they have a hell of a lot more reason on average to get out of a marriage."

    LOL, no it's because the only domestic violence that matters is anything involving a woman. It is the only domestic violence that is measured and the only violence that matters. Women also enact most divorce for the simple fact that they can and bear no obligation, liability or responsibility in divorce...men do. Legally, women changed the law so that marriage is not a commitment from a woman to a man but a man to a woman.

    Women initiate most divorce because they can. Marriage is not about men..it's about women.

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  150. I figured out why he's called "discount."

    Because we get more comments from him for the same price.

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  151. Elizabeth said...

    Was that not the plot of Boxing Helen or whatever that movie was called?


    Yeah, but when a five year-old says it, it's kind of cute, but when an adult says it (let alone does it) it's frightening.

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  152. How about how men are treated unequally and fair worse than women?

    Yeah but they're not.

    Because we get more comments from him for the same price.

    We're certainly getting what we paid for.

    ReplyDelete
  153. cboye: Surely an alias is unimportant and a high number of comments isn't much of an issue, though? Seems a little like trolling to me.

    Most resources flow to women. They own 60% of the nations wealth, earn 60% of college degrees, have all the rights in marriage and thus divorce, are the only gender that has conception rights both pre and post conception, rights over the fruits of their labor and outearn men by an average of 8% in every major metro city in the U.S.
    They have better healthcare provided to them, better health in every measure, longer life span, are not required to serve their country by Selective Service OF ANY KIND, better educational opportunities through women first Affirmative Action and have ownership over men's bodies and the fruits of men's labor including owning children.
    Men are not even considered a necessary part of the process of conception. Male genes are sold through the mail according to what celebrity they look like. Men are not even considered a necessary part of the family.
    I have no idea what you are talking about!


    A lot of those facts are of dubious legitimacy and very US centric. Women are sold through the mail ("Mail order wives") according to how pretty and subservient they are. Women are sexually objectified daily by sexually focussed advertising and cultural stereotypes. Women make less money per hour.
    Or, since you seem to be fairly focussed on the male side of things - men are more likely to be in a position of relative power in the workforce, men are less likely to be the victim of spousal abuse. Men have all rights in marriage and thus divorce (no seriously, you can divorce your wife if you have reason to do so).

    Men more often rape women than women rape men.

    The exclusion of women from conscription is a women's rights issue and a human welfare issue, and is pretty well irrelevant in this discussion. Feminism generally supports women's ability to enter the military, and the laws preventing them from entering frontline service or indeed being conscripted are biased against women not against men.

    The American healthcare system is a different matter entirely.

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  154. I might be able to continue with this discussion in a while but please, Discount, consider what you're saying before you say it - you've been making inconsistent and hurried points.

    You brought up advertising as something denigrating men when the majority of sexualised advertising focussed on objectifying women. That seems as though it wasn't well thought out.

    You've suggested I was playing stupid when you suggested appealing to the opposite sex should be a main factor in determining your career, which is just plain wrong.

    You've quoted scientific articles as "proof" when one of the founding principles of modern science is the inability to "prove" or "disprove" any given hypothesis, only to "support" or "counter" such a hypothesis. Even the great theories (for example, the theory of universal gravitation) that are generally accepted aren't "proven", they're simply supported by an overwhelming amount of experimental data and explain the related phenomena very well.

    Please make sure you're not undermining your arguments by making blunders like these in the future, as it's fairly hard to make strong arguments against vague statements or clearly biased rants.

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  155. Wow...so much fail. I think he calls himself "Discount" because we can safely discount anything he has to say.

    (Sorry if someone upthread used the same joke, but it was apropos.)

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  156. I did CB but that is okay. He instantly said it was a lack of intellect that caused me to say it.

    I think it was because I lack the peepee that you have.

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  157. Geti: True, and if I thought there was any chance of having an actual conversation with Discount, I would indeed focus on the actually-relevant stuff, as you are. (You're doing a great job of it, too.)

    But, as you have no doubt discovered, it's scarcely possible to find a coherent statement in any of his posts, and absolutely impossible to actually establish communication by saying something and having Discount understand you and respond in a meaningful or self-consistent manner.

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  158. Elizabeth said...

    I did CB but that is okay. He instantly said it was a lack of intellect that caused me to say it.


    As they say, great minds think alike. :)


    I think it was because I lack the peepee that you have.

    Well, that's probably because I eat lots of asparagus.

    Oh...wait, never mind.

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  159. "How about how men are treated unequally and fair worse than women?"

    "Yeah but they're not."

    Lol, I just provided a list for you. "Yea but they are not".... WOW...this will take days to ponder. What a profound response. The only people here who are able to communicate and manage some form of debate to any extent here are David and Geti. Your inability to care about anyone but yourselves is typical of women.

    The only safety, wellbeing, protection, provision and suffering that matters to you is that of women. You would rather men die in order to save yourselves. You are weak, selfish and you have no honor. I do not respect you.

    You bare forth nothing to men, not even children or family. Because of this you are owed absolutely nothing from men.

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  160. IQ tests have massive cultural bias. This is a well established fact in psychology. Didn't we hash that issue out on another thread?

    "They own 60% of the nations wealth" Source? The data I have found on poverty rates and investment holdings directly contradicts that statement. You also lack data in regards to your assertion that women make more in all cities. I can think of one NY specific study that found this data for white single, childless adults, but I have never seen inter-city data to this effect or a finding to this effect when women with children and women of color were considered.

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  161. Discount insults our honor. The time has come to challenge him to a duel.

    You know what? I'm fine with men owing women nothing. When it comes to relationships, I'd rather see people giving of themselves because they want to rather than give of themselves because they feel obligated to do so. The less guilt-tripping, the better.
    But employers are obligated to make sure they're paying the same wages to people doing the same job with the same qualifications, whether or not one of them might leave to have children someday. People are obligated not to threaten and harass other people on the streets. We are all obligated to make sure that an upper-class white boy and a lower-class black girl have the same opportunity to succeed in life, in any field they might wish to pursue.

    But we still haven't reached that point. And as long as people like you keep insisting that the Earth is flat, yet refuse to offer any support other than 'That's just the way it is, deal with it,' that point will be a long time coming.

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  162. Discount. Women are oppressed quite horrifically to this day. By men who think as yourself. You aren't anything special, you probably are in the middle of the bell curve of intelligence. Women are equals, that's that. Otherwise we should discriminate based on IQ rather than gender (by your own argument) and a lot of us men who actually like women tend to have "really high IQs".

    And I am not a fan of the IQ test, it's culturally biased. Hard work, that's the key to success. IQ's are just a way for people to feel better than others. And this is coming from someone who thinks MENSA tests are easy. If you want a high IQ you teach your kids to do puzzles. If you don't want one you don't mentally stimulate your children. Mental stimulation is "play" and bonding and encouragement to go use their minds rather than watch telly or play videogames. There is a time and a place for them, but formative years of childhood are not it.

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  163. I would say that making the most of your talents is the key to success but that is me and feel free to ignore it.

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  164. You aren't anything special, you probably are in the middle of the bell curve of intelligence.

    And you are exceptionally courteous.

    -katz

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  165. "Discount insults our honor. The time has come to challenge him to a duel."

    All I hear from his direction is a pointless barking, not unlike that of some rat-sized cur desperately trying to sound bigger and meaner than it is.

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  166. You bare forth nothing to men, not even children or family. Because of this you are owed absolutely nothing from men.

    I dunno, I think Jayne Mansfield in the thread above is baring forth quite a lot...

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  167. The only safety, wellbeing, protection, provision and suffering that matters to you is that of women. You would rather men die in order to save yourselves. You are weak, selfish and you have no honor. I do not respect you.

    Yeah, women, when was the last time you hunted a mammoth?

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  168. Um...yeah, I think I had a doctor's excuse that day.

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  169. I registered as a conscientious objector. My faith doesn't allow me to kill mammoths.

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  170. "Discount, women *also* get paid less per hour, on average."

    Yea....prove it.

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  171. "IQ tests have massive cultural bias"

    Uhh huh...sure they are..that's why the curve is proportional at the top and bottom and the exponential curve is represented by the same exponential male presence in the areas Ms. Cronin mentioned.

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  172. -"You know what? I'm fine with men owing women nothing. When it comes to relationships, I'd rather see people giving of themselves because they want to rather than give of themselves because they feel obligated to do so."

    How about people being force to give because the person they are giving to is a weak women who is unable to support herself and her own family?

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  173. Family meaning women's families and women's children not a family of a man, woman and child.

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  174. Oh, sure, I hunt mammoths all of the time. Fucking agriculture, how does it work?

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  175. "Otherwise we should discriminate based on IQ rather than gender (by your own argument)"

    Nope...just equal opportunity. Men deserve the equal right to education based upon merit not women only Affirmative Action policies.

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  176. "The only safety, wellbeing, protection, provision and suffering that matters to you is that of women. You would rather men die in order to save yourselves. You are weak, selfish and you have no honor. I do not respect you."

    "-Yeah, women, when was the last time you hunted a mammoth?"

    See who's lives, safety, welfare and wellbeing women value more when the time comes.

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  177. Nope...just equal opportunity. Men deserve the equal right to education based upon merit not women only Affirmative Action policies.


    Aaaaand...here's where we ask you to prove it: how are men being discriminated against in university admissions?

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  178. "They own 60% of the nations wealth" Source?

    -It's called google "women 60% of wealth"
    Furthermore more money flows from men and government to women than from women to men even in the personal realm.

    "You also lack data in regards to your assertion that women make more in all cities."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

    Time Magazine: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IU3iQnIt6Nc/TOI70pL8FVI/AAAAAAAAAeY/2kkHVHRxun0/s1600/75179_1579626383548_1622331797_1399185_1851917_n.jpg

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  179. There is simply nothing more anyone owes women to provide for and protect them. You will have to learn to stand on your own two feet like a man.

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  180. See who's lives, safety, welfare and wellbeing women value more when the time comes

    The people they care about the most? I'd imagine that varies from woman to woman. I'm not sure what "time" you are referring to.

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  181. The recent time when that airliner crash landed into the Hudson..that time.

    Women's lives, safety, health, wellbeing and equal opportunities are not more important than men's. Women do not see it this way. Very sad.

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  182. Ask any woman who she would rather see a man pull out of a burning wreckage a man or a woman.

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  183. The 60% of the wealth stat is widely quoted, but poorly sourced. The nearest I could find to a source was a study cited by The Economist which projected that women will control 60% of all the wealth in Britain by the year 2025.

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  184. You will have to learn to stand on your own two feet like a man.

    Right, just like a man who has had his bad behavior excused with that old aphorism, "boys will be boys," had his mediocre grades overlooked because of his family connections with the university, who got his job despite lackluster qualifications thanks to the same connections, who is able to save more of his paycheck because he has an unpaid secretary/accountant/babysitter/maid doing all the quotidian manual labor type tasks he prefers to avoid (a traditional-gender-role wife, in case you couldn't tell), who has been granted promotions and pay raises because "he has a family to support" (unlike the single mother, right?)--yeah, stand on your own two feet dammit! Just like those Real Men who do everything alone without any help from anyone ever!!

    So interesting how Real Men are nearly indistinguishable from grumpy toddlers.

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  185. Discount is making some pretty sweeping accusations here - really, all women prefer to see men die, as a universal rule? I mean, that just sounds incredibly stupid to me. If women were really possessed of that much unthinking gender solidarity you'd think McCain would have won the election.

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  186. Ask any woman who she would rather see a man pull out of a burning wreckage a man or a woman.

    Is the man Brad Pitt? This is important.

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  187. "Right, just like a man who has had his bad behavior excused with that old aphorism, "boys will be boys," had his mediocre grades overlooked because of his family connections with the university, who got his job despite lackluster qualifications thanks to the same connections, who is able to save more of his paycheck because he has an unpaid secretary/accountant/babysitter/maid doing all the quotidian manual labor type tasks he prefers to avoid (a traditional-gender-role wife, in case you couldn't tell), who has been granted promotions and pay raises because "he has a family to support" (unlike the single mother, right?)--yeah, stand on your own two feet dammit! Just like those Real Men who do everything alone without any help from anyone ever!!

    So interesting how Real Men are nearly indistinguishable from grumpy toddlers."

    Lol...yea sure there are no "privileged" daughters of the world. What would you have society do, create "social justice" policies i.e. discrimination policies against men as you have already done? Your ideology is filled with the concept of a wide spread Marxist class oppression and embodies no values of Freedom, Independence, Liberty but most of all equal protection and representation under law.

    You believe in a nation divided by gender, race and religion and I believe in the founding values of my country which is to say that no law should be based upon these things.

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  188. Discount said...

    Ask any woman who she would rather see a man pull out of a burning wreckage a man or a woman.


    I'll ask should the occasion ever arise.

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  189. "Discount is making some pretty sweeping accusations here"

    You are the one making sweeping accusations and likewise seek to create all encompassing discriminatory laws and polices against the male gender.

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  190. "I'll ask should the occasion ever arise."

    No you won't, you will help the woman first and so would a woman.

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  191. Discount said...

    "I'll ask should the occasion ever arise."

    No you won't, you will help the woman first and so would a woman.


    Naw, I'd get a stick and some marshmallows and cackle maniacally while making s'mores. Fuck everyone.

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  192. Enjoy your women only loans, mandated contracts to women owned businesses, women only scholarships and "advancement programs", heavily structured female based learning models and most of all Affirmative Action "women first" policies.

    While men lost 82% of all jobs in this Recession I resent representatives from your now separate socio-political and socio-economic class who advocated for and won the diversion of Stimulus Package funds and associated economic policy based upon "gender class".

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/659dkrod.asp

    Make no mistake women as a class have made themselves the competitors and adversaries of men.

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  193. You speak of a non-existent wage gap when for sake of argument if it were true the money which flows from men's hands into yours more than eclipses any disparity.

    You are heavily dependent upon men for your very survival. Those men who lost Stimulus funds and find themselves out of work are forced by women to give them what money they have left in savings and their UNEMPLOYMENT CHECKS GARNISHED like my brothers is. Barely able to feed themselves and survive while their ex is going on European vacations and getting spa treatments.

    I've seen the suffering "independent" women inflict upon men in their personal lives. These expectations of men are not supported by public policy which seeks to remove men from the equal opportunity to attend education and obtain work.

    Those men (who are now a minority) in the nations colleges and those men who are getting their unemployment checks garnished resent what you are doing. When the unemployment runs out the expectations of forced labor upon men, our bodies and the fruits of our labor are not relieved and instead these men are placed into cages for failing to give women their money. I and many men resent you for this.

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