Monday, November 22, 2010

No boobs, please -- we're Men's Rights Activists

Sometimes they wear tops. Via FEMEN's NSFW photostream.
A group of young, attractive Ukrainian women take off their tops and pose for pictures.

The response of Men's Rights Activists? "Distatesful."  "Stupid." A "monstrosity."

And why is this? Well, because these particular topless women are members of FEMEN, a group of women who protest against sexism and sex tourism by baring their breasts. Needless to say, when the group protests, the media shows up, cameras wildly clicking.

All this has gotten the attention of W.F. Price at The Spearhead. And he's not happy about it:

Femen represents, if anything, the devolution of feminism into its bare essence. These women have leapfrogged all the steps taken by the Western feminist movement, which first presented concern over women and children, then equality between women and men, and not until recently female supremacy and license as their goals.

I'm not quite sure how boobs = female supremacy. But Price's argument, such as it is, is a model of careful reasoning compared to what the Spearheadies said in the comments. To Papa Smurf, the protests

show how fickel some women are. That sort of Ideology is infectious and contagious like their gonorrhea infested vagina’s. If you want a society to prosper and develop then your going to have to keep your women in check and order. full stop. No negotiation because negotiating with a emotional, self deluded, attention seeking female is pointless.

That little masterpiece got 30 upvotes from the assembled masses, and one downvote.

XS, meanwhile, responded to Skadi, who'd made a few remarks actually supporting the protesters, with some remarks that demonstrated exactly the sort of misogyny the FEMEN women are up against:

Skadi, the system is not against young Ukranian women, they just spread their legs for the highest bidder because that’s all they have to offer. They’re looking for western feminist privilege, just like the skanks in Western Europe. Women contribute nothing to society except babies, and bitch and moan about it for all their lives.

Misterb aka misterbastard, meanwhile, spat forth an incoherent manifesto that ended with, uh, a call for mass murder.

It was a matter of time, when Eastern European women would become like the or worse than feminists in both of our countries.

Feminism had produce such monstrosity. The so-called Christian Right doesn’t realize the full dangers of immorality and feminism. ... The loony left want free love and murdering people, with the approval of others.

Speaking of Eastern European women, they used to be considered attractive by western men. But not any more. Who would want to sleep with a woman who has more than three partners?

the dangers of sexual transmitted diseases and HIV still hovers over the head of Eastern Europeans. And those women are pretty stupid to realize, of what they are throwing away. Their dignity, their health.

any idiot who peddles moral relativism, is nothing short of being a murder. he or she should be killed and burned.

Last I checked, this comment -- with the killing and the burning and everything -- had garnered itself two dozen upvotes, and only 4 downvotes.

It's not terribly surprising to discover that the FEMEM women are far more articulate about what they are up to than their critics. FEMEN leader Anna Gutsol explained in an interview last year what the group was about and why it relied on sex appeal to sell its message:

FEMEN is based on the idea that girls need to be active participants in society. And by “active,” I don’t just mean “active enough to land themselves husbands.” We want more women to develop a social consciousness. We’re also against the idea of sex tourism and the sex industry in general in Ukraine. And we want to package our message in a way that’s going to be appealing to young Ukrainian women. ...

People sneer at us all the time: “You’re against the sex industry, but you are all dressing like sex-workers.” But Ukrainian sex-workers by and large don’t own their own bodies. That’s not how it works with us. When one of our girls went topless on Independence Square, she was doing it as a radical act. And it gets people talking. Our sexy image causes debate. You need to have debate if you are ever to move forward. So many activists have no idea how to engage the media and the public. They’re dour, uninteresting. FEMEN is the opposite of that.

Though FEMEM fights for women's rights, Gutsol doesn't actually see the group as feminist. "We use eroticism in our approach and our dress," she told interviewer Natalia Antonova. "That’s not sanctioned by feminism." (Actually, it is, at least by the non-Dworkinite feminists who seem to make up most of the movement today.)

Now, it's certianly possible to make cogent arguments for and against this kind of activism. There's no question it's gotten the group a lot of attention. Do these protests effectively challenge sexism, or do they reinforce it? Probably a bit of both, though the reaction these protests have gotten from the Ukrainian authorities and from the guys at The Spearhead suggests to me that FEMEN must be doing something right.

69 comments:

  1. I... think what Mr. Price is trying to say is that the only source of female power is the hypnotizing power of our breasts? Possibly? To be honest his logic somewhat eludes me.

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  5. ooks like an attempt to really finish Ukraine off.

    Its either a astroturf movement organised by a foreign power thats populated by brain dead locals that don't understand the dire situation that Ukraine is in, or it is a genuine grass roots movement organised and populated by brain dead locals that do not realise that

    "The net population reproduction rate in Ukraine equals to half a level necessary for a simple replacement of generations. Crisis in health and social care, along with the economic problems, are the most important drivers of the severe demographic situation observed in the country."
    http://www.unfpa.org.ua/en/overview/

    and that feminism is the last thing the country needs if it wants to continue to exist.

    n a country with a dire outlook because of its reproduction levels, this group are against childrearing and home making.

    I smell a rather large rat, and think that this movement is populated by useful idiots.

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  6. A lot of the guys over on Spearhead talked about american feminism as a form of cultural imperialism, I think this situation in Ukraine demonstrates feminism as a cultural weapon succinctly.

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  7. Anyone else want to speculate on the identity of the pied piper thats leading this group of imbeciles in their crusade against reproduction in a country with a reproduction rate thats well below replacement?

    CIA, KGB... someone else... or perhaps like David you think that they are doing something right... ?

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  8. The whole sex-trafficking thing is a myth.

    Women prostitute themselves.

    It is not done by some big evil man that forces them too.

    And:

    "And we want to package our message in a way that’s going to be appealing to young Ukrainian women. ... "

    This will not attract young women - young women baring themselves attracts young men.

    Excellent demonstration of how stupid these women are...

    Another lame observation with lame citations to lame it up.

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  9. Scarecrow

    you can see by their websites, custom made costumes and professional media marketing campaign that they have plenty of money.. but theres no sign of a request to make donations, this does not look a grassroots movement at all.

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  10. Whether or not you agree with FEMEM's methods, it's good to see evidence of political activism and civil society in Ukraine. The only way they are going to get a responsible, accountable government is if they continue to take a stand on issues that matter to them.

    @Eoghan,
    Congratulations on proving yourself not only sexist but also ethnocentric.

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  11. In Ukraine they are known as "putins agents".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMEN


    Christine, I know you have carte blanch to label and stereotype people here, but can you back up what you you are calling me with any sort of evidence?

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  12. Yeah, they're "Putin's agents." That's why they protested a recent visit by him:

    http://animalnewyork.com/2010/10/femen-to-putin-you-cant-fck-us/

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  13. Thats very naive of you David, if they were a kremlin controlled group and the locals suspected that they were, its entirely possible that they would protest him in public..

    Either way, they are a well funded slick campaign prompting an ideology that drops the birth rates in a country that is producing at below replacement rates.

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  14. They've also been called "girls Tymoshenko," and Tymoshenko is not exactly known for wanting Ukraine to cozy up to Russia.

    I called you ethnocentric because as someone of Ukrainian decent, with friends and acquaintances from Ukraine, I find your comments regarding Ukraine offensive, specifically your reference to "brain dead locals." Your description of Ukraine as a country on the brink of non-existence is also offensive; as troubled as the country may be, it is vital. You seem to view Ukraine as backwards and miserable, and incapable of producing its own political movements. I called you ethnocentric because you spoke of the fate of Ukraine not with concern, but with disdain.

    And again, I'm ChristinA, not ChristinE. I wouldn't care if you called me Christine, but there is another commenter whose name actually is Christine, and she isn't me.

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  15. @scarecrow,

    Sex trafficking is not a myth. I was in a meeting this morning with a police department, FBI, district attorney, and other crime victim's advocates (like myself) about an investigation spanning 3 states along the coast where I live. Apparently some big evil man here lures European women, mostly from Russia and Ukraine, to the beautiful coast here with lies, then strips them of their passports and forces them into prostitution. You may deny it happens, but it happens anyway.

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  16. "n a country with a dire outlook because of its reproduction levels, this group are against childrearing and home making." Since when does being against sex trafficking equal hating children? Wanting to equally parent does not equal being against children or parenting.

    From the interview David Links

    "Anna: I think many Ukrainian men find strong women inconvenient. Think about your typical Soviet set-up, which is still around nowadays: both partners work, but when the wife comes home at 6 p.m., she launches herself into housework, while the husband relaxes. A strong woman may not stand for that. I’m not saying this is a problem in every household, but it exists. It’s prominent.

    Natalia: I’m struck by how Western women often talk about there being a clear choice between career and home. I don’t think Soviet women entertained that notion.

    Anna: A career is something you do devote yourself to immensely. You make sacrifices. It’s not that those sacrifices are necessarily incompatible with having a family, but it can be much harder. In terms of plain old work – you are right. Our women did both. And continue to do both. And it’s often very thankless."

    Which support's Christina's point about your ethnocentrism as well. Why do you see career and family as opposites? Why do you think that women have one or the other when this is not and has not been the reality for many women, including most Ukranian women? You insist on looking at these women with a cultural lense that is not their own. Perhaps you do it so admantly because not doing so would conflict with your stereotypes about what 'non-western' women are like and what they think.

    I also fail to see how sex trafficking is good for any child or any parent. To my knowledge, this is FEMEN's number one issue, fighting sex trafficking and sex tourism.

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  17. Christine

    Sex trafficking seems to be largely a feminist fraud thats used as a justification to criminalize prostitution, which drives the industry underground and into the hands of criminals.

    A number of investigative journalists have written pieces about the fraud.

    Feminism counts any woman that has crossed a boarder to work in the sex trade as trafficked, its very misleading. Sweden, UK and Iceland have already used this method to legislate against the consensual sex trade.

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  19. When MRA's dress up like superhero's and climb buildings to bring attention to their cause, they are roundly mocked. When feminists flash boobs to get attention David prostrates himself and praises their ability to garner attention. Wow. This femen is just another group of self indulgent children relentlessly making demands as their country falls apart around them.

    Random Brother

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  20. Interesting comment from Christine, worth a discussion.

    It is not easy to enter USA, so how come all these women you mention have passports with valid US-visa? Any explication for that?

    Try, as an ordinary male US-citizen, to assist your girl-friend from abroad and invite her for a few weeks to USA and you will see how difficult it is to get a visa approved. Even internet-dating is restricted.

    You also mention 'forces them into prostitution' - this is typical for countries, where legal prostitution does not exist.

    It's forcing men, to go to prostitutes 'underground' or to pay ridiculous high fees to so-called 'escort-services'.

    This means prostitution is getting so expensive, that it is a big business for international criminality, with both, male and female criminals in USA and Estern Europe, Asia etc. Demand - Supply.

    In countries where prostitution is legal, it's like a business - to be a prostitute is a job like any other job.

    Even feminists don't know what to do, some are totally against prostitution, and others are calling it female empowerment.

    For sure, money will always move from men to women for sex.

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  21. cat, a comment of yours got caught by the spam filter; it's up now.

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  22. It's not the method I would choose for a protest, but if they're doing something, good for them. They seem like a tough group of women.

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  23. "'We use eroticism in our approach and our dress,' she told interviewer Natalia Antonova. 'That’s not sanctioned by feminism.' (Actually, it is, at least by the non-Dworkinite feminists who seem to make up most of the movement today.)"

    Even hairy-legged, Dworkin-reading, lesbian feminists like me don't necessarily object to the use of eroticism for feminist causes. For instance, I wouldn't object if what attracted some women to feminism was getting support for their desire to make love with women too (if they were lesbian or bisexual) or for their desire to do something other than PIV intercourse with male sexual partners (for bi and heterosexual women). Of course it's important to keep working on issues such as violence against women and pay inequality too, but there's nothing wrong with eroticism being a part of the movement.

    There is a significant but very small minority of feminists who believe sex and sexuality have been irredeemably corrupted by patriarchy. I can understand that view, but it also has to be said that many feminists people think are in that category are not. For instance, Andrea Dworkin's much-reviled book Intercourse has been mislabeled as saying that all sex is rape. It's such a popular misreading even feminists usually accept it when they hear it from anti-feminists, without reading the book themselves. In fact, the book's argument is simply that PIV intercourse is often harmful to women and is interpreted as an expression of male dominance in the current world. Dworkin does raise the question of whether PIV intercourse would still be harmful in an egalitarian society, but even she is unsure she would answer that question in the affirmative. To give another example, Shulamith Firestone says in her Dialectic of Sex that in an egalitarian society the PIV-only model of sex which can be restrictive and, let's face it, boring would be replaced by a pansexuality involving the whole body. It's full of erotic possibility.

    So, again, even hairy-legged radfems are rarely anti-sex. We're more likely to object to the automatic, unthinking equation of words such as "eroticism" and "sexuality" with the display of women's bodies for the benefit of men or with patterns of male dominance in sex. It's the latter attitude that leads to some (but certainly not most!) self-described sex-positive feminists to label stripping and pornography liberating and empowering for women, but to see lesbians and heterosexual women who don't enjoy PIV intercourse as anti-sex.

    I hope this won't come across as assuming you or the activists of this group hold the attitude I described above. I just wanted to clarify that even radical feminists -even Dworkin- are not usually opposed to eroticism.

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  25. Cristine - brain dead as in you would have to be to support an ideology that reduces birth rates in your own country when that country is on the brink of disaster due to its low birth rate.

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  26. Darksidecat

    look at the language used

    "A career is something you do devote yourself to immensely. You make sacrifices. It’s not that those sacrifices are necessarily incompatible with having a family, but it can be much harder. In terms of plain old work – you are right. Our women did both. And continue to do both. And it’s often very thankless."

    its not promoting both family and career, its promoting doing both as undesirable.



    Christine, I did not frame Ukraine as being on the brink of disaster, the UN did as you can see

    "The net population reproduction rate in Ukraine equals to half a level necessary for a simple replacement of generations. Crisis in health and social care, along with the economic problems, are the most important drivers of the severe demographic situation observed in the country."
    http://www.unfpa.org.ua/en/overview/

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  27. David: A group of young, attractive Ukrainian women take off their tops and pose for pictures.

    The response of Men's Rights Activists? "Distatesful." "Stupid." A "monstrosity."


    David, this is absolutely NOT true.

    All MRAs like these nice FEMEN girls.

    I think, these Ukraine men and women have a lot of fun with that. And I am sure, these 'feminists' are earning money for their 'performances'.

    MRAs like FEMEN, really...

    http://www.kyivpost.com/news/politics/detail/65379/

    http://www.adult-spanking.com/tube/index.php/otk-spanking/femen-otk/

    http://spankstatement.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/femen-marking-bottoms-2/

    http://spankstatement.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/femen-protest-corrections-and-updates/

    Unfortunately I think, FEMEN-protests are not, what American feminists appreciate.

    All American adult servers are full with this Ukraine FEMEN stuff...see links above.

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  28. Yohan, you're these campaigns are clearly expensive, and a lot of the girls look like professional models, their media is very professional and well connected to the US mainstream media. Their stated goals are very vague..
    I did find a page of theirs on which people can make donations... which was very quiet, two comments thanking two different people from over a year ago... its all very suspect.

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  29. @Eoghan

    How exactly does protesting sex tourism = decreasing birth rates???

    This makes absolutely no sense at all.

    @Aishlin

    Interesting point about how easily misrepresented Dworkin is... I find this is very common with the MPAs i.e. posting disembodied quotations from Dworkin and McKinnon and it's very easy to take them at face value. I was reading figleaf's adult sex blog(I think) and they were discussing how a particular quotation about having a "sexless" society was actually refering to gender, and not sex yet it's often quoted by MPAs to "prove" how anti-sex and anti-male feminism is.

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  31. Random Brother --

    You can make all the generalizations you want about feminists in general, but specific insinuations about the sex lives of other commenters cross the line. I deleted your last comment.

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  32. Tec

    Protesting sex tourism in itself doesn't decrease birth rates, but it does when protesting against sex tourism is the platform that contained feminism as the underlying message and we both know that these group isn't simply protesting sex tourism.

    Promoting american feminism in a country thats on the brink of disaster because of its low birth is at the very least irresponsible, to me it looks like its foreign power making sure that Ukraine does collapse.

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  33. @Eoghan,

    I also think so, these are professional models, for sure nothing to do with an 'ordinary protest' or 'feminism'.

    Who does not need money?

    This is the FEMEN webpage in Russian, but the pictures do not need a translation. These girls are clearly into show-business, also into recording in a studio.

    http://femen.livejournal.com/
    http://femen.livejournal.com/113738.html

    One article in English somewhere said, parents of one girl kicked her out of the family in a village because of her life-style and bad behavior towards the church, and another mother said, she is ashamed every day when going out in the city because of her daughter.

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  34. Yeah it looks like packaged and marketed rebellion dressed up as grass roots activism. On one of their sites the claim is made that they are "independent" and dont take donations from corps or political groups, but they look extremely well funded and professional. My guess is that its CIA or KGB backed. This is the sort of thing that Gloria Steinem used to do for the CIA, she was running rallies and media campaigns in east europe before she ran Ms. Magazine.

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  35. @Aishlan "self-described sex-positive feminists to label stripping and pornography liberating and empowering for women, but to see lesbians and heterosexual women who don't enjoy PIV intercourse as anti-sex." Way to misrepresent sex positive feminists, and to dismiss the large numbers of queer sex positive feminists (and the history of hosility between the queer movement and the rad fem movement). There are plenty of sex-positive feminist lesbians, stop pretending otherwise, and stop pretending like 'sex-positive' is about mandating that any specific individual like or do any specific sex act, rather than about not making assumptions about the worth or politics of others based on what consensual sex acts they may or may not like. I also do not know of any sex-positive feminist who thinks that all porn or sex work is positive. Some porn is objectifing, some isn't, just as some non-porn films are and some aren't.

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  36. Oh my! Beautiful angry feminist women whipping their milk jugs out to protest the "evil patriarchy!" in front of a pro feminist man. What is a feminist man to do! If he likes what he sees he has oppressed her and turned her into a filthy sex object, a wretched mastubatory fantasy, and yet if he ignores her he hurts the sisterhood and demeans her efforts and intuitive female intelligence! Oh the horrors!

    Random Brother

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  37. Cat, I said "certainly not most." Not even "not all," or "some": not most. With an exclamation point for crying out loud. If radical feminists who think all sex is rape are worth talking about, despite being a tiny minority, sex-positive feminists who encourage people to have sex they don't want are worth talking about despite being a tiny minority. Both groups have issues; we'll benefit from each other's criticism.

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  38. Argh, my internet problems swallowed up an enormous comment on how the sex-positive feminist label is misappropriated and sex-positive feminists doing great, important work can also sometimes use rhetoric that inadvertently marginalizes lesbian, celibate and asexual women -despite being strong supporters of gay rights. Ah, well. It was mostly off-topic anyway.

    To put (relatively) briefly: I've seen people who describe themselves as sex-positive feminists tell a heterosexual woman who said she didn't enjoy PIV intercourse and was fine without it that she should get therapy, make comments about anal sex and BDSM along the lines of, "Well, of course you shouldn't be forced to do something if you absolutely hate it. But don't you have an obligation to your partner to be open to trying new things?" and, similarly, make comments on heterosexual oral sex along the lines of, "I guess you don't have to do something if you really don't want to. But if he's willing to do it for you, isn't it selfish if you won't for him? Don't you care about your partner at all?" Less egregiously but much more commonly (see any thread on porn at Hugo Schwyzer's blog for examples of this), there are sex-positive feminists who say the consent of the actors or models is the sole criterion for porn to be feminist (from your last sentence I feel fairly confident you'd agree this definition is inadequate).

    As a movement in which many people are motivated by disagreement with radical feminism, sex-positive feminism is especially vulnerable to misappropriation by those who disagree with feminism generally. Radical feminism has the opposite problem: instead of being misinterpreted and embraced by the wrong people, we're misinterpreted and rejected by the right people. In both cases, extra caution and specification in expressing our positions is an unfortunate, unfair necessity.

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  39. Aishlin

    most feminists including "sex positive" feminists have some negative attitudes towards sex and male sexuality and support unequal attitudes, laws and double standards relating to sex. Both radical and sex positive feminists will cover up for female sex offenders and oppress their victims, for example.

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  40. Yes they do David, very few branches of feminism wont cover up for female abusers, and the ones that do tend to be real equality feminists that are sympathetic to the mrm, although admittedly real equality feminists tend to be sex positive too.
    I have a friend who is a sex positive feminist, but she still believes the feminist myths about there being less wrong with female sexuality as there is with male, these ideas are so ingrained in the movement, they often fly under the radar, she is lots of fun though and is open to being shown how she holds sexual double standards but thinks that she doesn't.

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  41. @Aishlan, you are right that my quick reading missed your qualification, but while you have heard a few bad things from a few self identified sex positive feminists, well, I have NEVER had a conversation with a rad fem where my gender and sexuality hasn't been marginalized or, more commonly, outright rejected. I am genderqueer and have considered some medical transition, I am a switch and actively enjoy BDSM, I am bisexual. The first question in your mind reading the first part of that statement is probably whether I was raised as boy or a girl, because that decides whether most rad fems consider me a traitor or a spying imitator. I enjoy BDSM and I enjoy penetrative and non-penetrative sex with people of a variety of gender. You can decide how you want to take that along with how you gendered me. Want to know how to feel marginalized in a sex debate in feminism, try being in that room while trans, let alone being in that room while trans, kinky, and bi.

    Not that anti-feminists really care about these distinctions, but they are important for the rest of us.

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  42. @eoghan Do you have an actual example of a systematic denial of female abusers/rapists being perpetrated by women who specifically identify as feminists?????????? Link it or stop posting lies.

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  43. @Aislin, Kat

    I have read before of persons who are bi, trans, etc. feeling marginalized in feminist discussions, especially by rad fems, but I'm not clear why (granted the feminist blogs I have come across are sex-positive). BDSM I can see maybe (except for femdoms) but why transgender and bisexuality???

    I sometimes find that sex-positive feminism can be "prude-shaming" as well and I've felt alienated and been criticized by self-identified sex-positive feminists both IRL and IVL. It's just really hypocritical to be against and criticize slut shaming and then engage in reverse slut shaming...

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  44. @Kat
    D'oh! Heteronormal privilege alert! I just realized I probably sounded like a real prat there. I actually meant it to be generally why is rad feminism alienating to BDSMers, bis or trans vs. asking you a specific question about your experiences. And yeah, either way, it's really not your job to educate me about your marginalization. I didn't mean for it to be offensive in any way and didn't realize til now...

    Sorry

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  45. @Tec, the rad fem movement has a long history of anti-trans sentiment. The vitrol gets thrown more at trans women than trans guys. Greer, Daly, and many other traditional rad fem stalwarts are blatantly trans phobic. Most rad fem groups deliberately exclude trans women and, in practice, also exclude trans men. Sheila Jefferies, Janice Raymond (author of the infamous 'Transexual Empire'), Mary Daly, Germaine Greer, and many other radical feminist writers are explicitly transphobic. Transphobia is the norm, not the exception amoung radical feminists. My understanding, in talking to older trans people, is that this has gotten worse, not better, since the 70's, and that there used to be a less transphobic subset of radical feminism that died off somewhere in between then and now.

    On BDSM, rad fems often group consensual BDSM with rape and abuse. You get a lot of bull about 'reinforcing hierarchy' (and, yes, a lot of pretending that all BDSM involves a female sub and a male dom) and a lot of stereotypes about female subs. I have outright heard people say that consensual BDSM with a male dom and a female sub is rape.

    Anti-trans and anti-BDSM is often intentional and explicit, erasure of bisexuality tends to be more just a function of refusing to discuss it. This problem actually goes both ways more than just being from the rad fems. There tends to be this starting assumption that women who have sex with men are presumed hetero and it is presumed that the never have satisfying non-penetrative sex with women or men and that women who have sex with women are presumed lesbian and it is assumed they never have satisfying penetrative sex with either men or women. The defenders of PIV sex almost always posit the person being discussed as a hetero one, whereas the rad fems almost always try to make the discussion about exlcusive lesbianism. The idea that women who have sex with women and also have sex with men (some of all of which may be PIV) just never seems to cross their minds and, if a bi person brings it up, it is promptly ignored.

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  46. Tec

    You said
    "
    @eoghan Do you have an actual example of a systematic denial of female abusers/rapists being perpetrated by women who specifically identify as feminists?????????? Link it or stop posting lies".

    I do have many examples, I have a charity owner taking about how feminists target her and her work with victims of female pedophiles.

    All feminist research into the area presents sex abuse as mainly gendered which keeps female abusers and their victims hidden.

    Most feminists support the POV that abuse is political an mainly gendered and try to oppress groups and voices that advocate for equality in abuse services.

    So there you go, wide spread protection of female abusers and oppression of their victims.

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  47. Here Tec

    here is that charity owner on feminists oppressing victims of CSA and protecting female pedophiles.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPDL78e8UAs&playnext=1&list=PL36C9F92C79B21FE6&index=9

    As for you, Ive often seen you suppressing victims that don't look like you or protecting abusers that do, just like the feminists Michele Elliott of Kidscape is talking about, here on this blog.

    To many feminists, protecting abusers that look like them and oppressing their victims is second nature, its part of their political conditioning.

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  48. Darksidecat

    would it be true to say that some rad fems would support prison sentences for straight male Dominants?

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  49. @David

    Please delete Eoghan's comment as he has just stated that I have suppressed victims which I have not. *IF* he can provide specific examples then fine, but since he can't, it's a false slur against me.

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  50. @Eoghan - Oh yes, Man Woman Myth - so objective. One example, of PEOPLE disrupting a conference with no proof that they were even FEMINISTS, isn't systematic. Since you have no proof that they were even feminists, stop telling that outright lie! Seriously, yes, male victims have been marginalized (and so have female victims of female perps). Usually because people (and David had a post about MRAs who did exactly that) make the erroneous and terrible assumption that "real" men can't be victimized and women can't be rapists. Feminists acknowledge that men can be raped and women can be the rapists. Here's a guest post by a male rape victim on a feminist blog: “It happens far more often than most people realize and gets very little attention with regard to prevention and prosecution. In many cases it is outright denied or the concept mocked. Many resources for survivors give it lip service and little else, when it is acknowledged at all…Men are told to suck it up or that they are “lucky” if the perp was a woman. Or their sexual orientation is questioned …The “wet noodle” defense or erection = consent meme is a common tactic trotted out by those who wish to deny or make excuses for female offenders.”
    http://ethecofem.com/2010/11/04/on-gendering-rape-the-statistics-defense/
    Rigid gender roles and thinking of women as non-sexual and non-violent, etc. are functions of the Patriarchy which feminism is decidedly against: "in cases where a man is the victim of a woman’s violence, rape apologism is strongly rooted in the denial that women’s actions can count as violence at all — and especially that their actions can count as sexual violence against men, who are routinely construed as incapable of being victims."
    http://thecurvature.com/2009/03/20/when-a-man-is-the-victim-a-second-study-in-rape-apology/
    "Stereotypes about how a young boy should react to sex with an adult woman are the direct result of old-fashioned patriarchal views regarding gender relations…We encounter some of those same anti-feminist attitudes today when people assume, based on gender, that a female offender is less at fault or that any young boy worth his salt should be happy to have had the opportunity for sex with an adult woman,"
    http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/rape/
    More sites: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/01/rape-bigotry-and-dubai/
    Here's Melissa over at Shakesville in her Rape is Hilarious Series - talking about male rape victims:
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/06/humor-fail.html
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/child-rape-hilarious.html
    Yup, so much oppression and zilch from feminists about male rape victims. Hey instead of quoting Man Woman Myth’s propaganda, here is a feminist criticizing another feminist rape apologist you can use: "I don’t fight against rape just because rape is mostly committed against women, though that is a part of it. I fight against rape because it’s one of the gravest violations that a person can commit and that a person can experience. ...You can’t come up with a good reason why male rape survivors don’t count without also erasing some women rape survivors or survivors of other genders. If it’s about the rapist having oppressive power based in gender over the victim, you erase women who have been raped by women or by people of non-binary genders. If it’s about penises, you erase women who have penises, men who don’t, and victims who were raped with something other than a penis"
    http://thecurvature.com/2010/06/11/rape-male-victims-and-why-we-need-to-care/

    ReplyDelete
  51. @Kat

    Thanks for answering my question. :) That's absolutely awful and makes no real sense at all. t's like yeah we don't believe in rigid gender roles and patriarchy but let's dismiss the very same groups that don't identify with rigid genders! I will never understand why marginalized groups who protest the inequities they face but are willing to perpetuate marginalization of other groups. It's like, hypocrtical much? E.g. many of the suffragettes that campaigned for women's right to vote in Canada were bigots and racists:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Murphy
    *facepalm*

    Anyways, three comments in a row...I'll stop now. :P

    ReplyDelete
  52. @David

    Looks like one of my comments got caught in the filter. :(

    ReplyDelete
  53. Tec

    This blog and all the feminists on it work to suppress abuse victims. Every time you try to shout down criticism of the feminist controlled abuse industry or vawa or rights groups that want equality, you are suppressing abuse victims and protecting abusers.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Tec, your excellent post has been unfiltered and appears above.

    Eoghan, you are full of shit, as usual. Read Tec's post above. Read my posts about DV in the sidebar. Note that at no point do Tec or I deny that there are male abuse victims or that their suffering counts. Note the number of feminists who talk about this issue in detail.

    Yes, I challenged Elam's assertion that "women are half the problem" because, as EVERY SINGLE SERIOUS RESEARCHER, INCLUDING THE ONES THAT ELAM HIMSELF CITES, ACKNOWLEDGES WOMEN ARE THE PRIMARY VICTIMS OF SERIOUS, INJURY-PRODUCING ABUSE.

    To say this, however, is NOT to deny that women abuse men. They do, in significant numbers. Male abuse victims are real victims just like female ones.

    I have not seen any feminist who posts here suggest anything different than this. If you can find a SPECIFIC COMMENT that says abuse of males doesn't count, and you can give the SPECIFIC URL for that comment, you need to stop repeating this bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Oops. That last sentence should read: UNLESS you can find a SPECIFIC COMMENT that says abuse of males doesn't count, and you can give the SPECIFIC URL for that comment, you need to stop repeating this bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  56. @ David:

    David said ". . .Yes, I challenged Elam's assertion that "women are half the problem" because, as EVERY SINGLE SERIOUS RESEARCHER, INCLUDING THE ONES THAT ELAM HIMSELF CITES, ACKNOWLEDGES WOMEN ARE THE PRIMARY VICTIMS OF SERIOUS, INJURY-PRODUCING ABUSE."

    They are the victims of this abuse because they are the initiators! Jesus, why can't you people understand this?! The typical scenario of a domestic dispute is this:
    1. A couple begin arguing.
    2. The woman verbally escalates.
    3. The WOMAN starts agressive physical contact.
    4. The WOMAN escalates the physical contact and verbal insults. If the man leaves the woman will either block his path or try to lure him back into the fight.
    5. The WOMAN escalates too far and the man snaps, giving her equal force.
    6. The woman being weak can't take the physical force she's been dishing out, gets hurt, and then a bunch of moron's call her a victim and want to go after the man.

    The smartest thing a woman who doesn't want to be physically abused by her husband or boyfriend is to NOT HIT HIM! Why don't you femnuts tell women that?!

    So women are half the problem because they are the driving force in there being an altercation in the first place. Jesus effing christ!

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  57. @Bishop
    TL;DR version: It's always the wominz faultz! Puh-leezzz They've been using that line since, well, literally forever...at least since agrarian civilization began...

    It's not like, I don't know, for instance, a society that socializes men to be aggressive and violent??? Nope, gotta be the wiminz!

    Listen, I get that you're bitter and angry at the divorce b/c god forbid, you have to pay child support, but here's the thing, Bishop, abusers ALWAYS blame their victims so really, all you've just lost youself all credibility....

    ReplyDelete
  58. @ TEC

    In other words you're a mental coward who didn't even bother to see what I wrote before you attacked. Typical feminist. Furthermore, men are by nature more aggressive, you dimwit. Not by socialization. Blame evolution.

    Also like most feminuts you mention child support, but skip alimony, as if it doesn't exist. Typical fraud feminist. And you never take into account the amount of child support
    because if someone has to pay 70% of his pre tax income in alimony and child support, and it is difficult for him to live, well then he's just "bitter loser" and not a person screwed by your man hater system. You really are disgusting.

    And ooh, the bitter and angry canard. Who's more bitter than feminists? Who constantly is demanding more and more crap from the government? It's feminuts like you! All men want is for you evil people to leave us alone.

    And you are partially right about victim blaming. Men get screwed in divorce court and evil wretches like you blame men for not smiling as he looses his livelyhood. Repulsive, the lot of you.

    Finally, if you think I need to establish credibility with the likes of feminuts such as you then you are even stupider that I thought, and quite frankly I think you're one of the dumbest people one the planet who can manage to type.

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  59. "Furthermore, men are by nature more aggressive, you dimwit. Not by socialization. Blame evolution."

    So blame evolution, not feminism, for why men are often viewed solely as the perpetrators and never the victims of domestic violence.
    You're falling into your own trap.
    Men and women are, by nature, equally aggressive, on average. It's the manner in which men and women tend to express their aggression that is different, and that's not completely attributable to nature and evolution, a large part of it is nurture and socialization.

    ReplyDelete
  60. David

    you challenged the view that abuse is not gendered and lost.

    Feminists protect abusers that look like them and other their victims, while using abusers that dont look them and their victims to stereotype men, society and as political and rabble and fundraising currency, the gendered abuse construct is feminisms main political platform.

    Most feminists support segregation and apartheid between politically correct victims and politically incorrect victims, I have not seen one feminist on this blog that doesnt support that sick idea.

    Claiming that abuse is gendered is no different from claiming that crime is black or that aids is gay.

    Feminists suppress abuse victims that are not convenient while protecting abusers that look like them.

    ReplyDelete
  61. @ Pam

    Pam said: "So blame evolution, not feminism, for why men are often viewed solely as the perpetrators and never the victims of domestic violence.
    You're falling into your own trap.
    Men and women are, by nature, equally aggressive, on average. It's the manner in which men and women tend to express their aggression that is different, and that's not completely attributable to nature and evolution, a large part of it is nurture and socialization."

    No. 1. Men are not the primary instigators in DV women are. I will not blame evolution for someones FALSE beliefs. That's a total non sequitir that you pulled there. 2. Men are more aggressive, usually towards OTHER MEN, got it? So unless you're talking about gay marriage it makes no sense. It makes no sense for a man to routinely beat the snot out of his girlfriend/wife as that would lead him to less sex, not more, dig? 3. You keep trying to socialize men into what you want, but don't give a damn about what men want, equality my ass.

    Random Brother

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  62. I think your anger combined with your rigidly held beliefs is affecting your comprehension.

    I'm not trying to socialize men into anything. You want to play the "blame evolution" card when it suits you, but turn a blind eye to that same card when it might work against you.

    "It makes no sense for a man to routinely beat the snot out of his girlfriend/wife as that would lead him to less sex, not more, dig?"

    Not necessarily. If someone routinely has the snot beat out of them, especially in a close relationship, they will often try that much harder to please the person who is beating them, in a misguided effort to lessen the beatings or have them stop altogether. That effort to please could possibly lead to more sex, dig?

    ReplyDelete
  63. @ Pam

    Pam said: "I think your anger combined with your rigidly held beliefs is affecting your comprehension."

    Oooohhh. I bet you feel clever now, don't you hun?


    Pam said: "I'm not trying to socialize men into anything. You want to play the "blame evolution" card when it suits you, but turn a blind eye to that same card when it might work against you."

    Uh, example? Oh, that's right you don't have any.


    Pam said: ""It makes no sense for a man to routinely beat the snot out of his girlfriend/wife as that would lead him to less sex, not more, dig?"

    Not necessarily. If someone routinely has the snot beat out of them, especially in a close relationship, they will often try that much harder to please the person who is beating them, in a misguided effort to lessen the beatings or have them stop altogether. That effort to please could possibly lead to more sex, dig? "

    You're clearly some man hating lesbian as you know nothing about male female relationships. Here's a hint, male female relationships are NOT like what you read about in your "The Life and Times of Andrea Dworkin" for your feminism 101 class.

    Furthermore, to beat a woman into submission in hopes of better treatment is truly the long way around the horse as the saying goes. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely or is it a tactic that most men use or would use? Absolutely not. Is it likely to yield positive long term results? Of course not. But since you don't date men you wouldn't know. Stick to topics that you ACTUALLY have knowledgde of, okay hun?

    Random Brother

    ReplyDelete
  64. ROTFLMAO!!! Wow, I'm so impressed at your capacity for omniscience!! Or are you just trying out the tactics you've learned in your male supremacist 101 class?

    "Furthermore, to beat a woman into submission in hopes of better treatment is truly the long way around the horse as the saying goes. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely or is it a tactic that most men use or would use? Absolutely not. Is it likely to yield positive long term results? Of course not."

    Way to completely not understand at all what I was saying. You really are a piece of work.

    ReplyDelete
  65. @ Pam:

    There are no male supremacists classes you dimwit. Hell, any knowledge of the good males do in a college setting is damn well banned by you feminuts. Another false equivelance by your man hating kind. I always wonder when talking to someone full of relentless evil if they actually know they're sick with vileness and hatred. Do you know how evil you and your kind are? The only thing that actually stops your kind from truly being nazis is that you don't have enough arms. How does it feel to be the new face of hatred?

    Hell, your kind won't care, as long as men suffer you "people" are happy.

    Also you didn't deny what I said about what you are, so I'm probably right. Would you prefer I call you Paul, sir?

    And for the record I understand what you're trying to say, but it's illogical and backed up with no proof that I'm aware of. Your kind keeps trying to convince people that most DV is men attacking innocent, defenseless women who were just minding their own business. The truth is that women are usually the vocal and physical instigators in such incidents. They are only victims in that they can't take what they dish out. You just can't deal with that. That's your issue hun, not mine.

    Random Brother

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  66. "The only thing that actually stops your kind from truly being nazis is that you don't have enough arms."

    Huh? How many arms do people need to be Nazis? Hitler got by with just two, if I recall correctly.

    ReplyDelete
  67. "I always wonder when talking to someone full of relentless evil if they actually know they're sick with vileness and hatred."

    As do I. Funny, that.

    "Also you didn't deny what I said about what you are, so I'm probably right."

    Why would I want to confirm or deny something that you simply want to spew out in a feeble effort to be condescending?

    "Would you prefer I call you Paul, sir?"

    Whatever flips your switch!

    "That's your issue hun, not mine."

    Well, I suggest you take care of all your issues, as it's readily apparent that you have plenty of them. Oh, and good luck with all of them!

    ReplyDelete
  68. That was so easy. The only way to solve this problem is to have a breast enlargement.

    ReplyDelete

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