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| No girls allowed. |
I got a lot of comments, but, er, I didn't exactly get a ton of suggestions. The first commenter to come through with actual URLs was Yohan, a non-native English speaker who mainly reads non-American sites. He posted three URLs, all to sites not in English.
But hey, we live in a global village, and I'm not going to let a little thing like language get in the way. So I pasted his URLs into Google Translate and took a look.
The first site he mentioned, a German Men's Rights hub called MANNdat, looked, sadly, almost completely identical to any number of American Men's Rights sites, from its page on "Feminist Myths" right on down to the obligatory "Woman Behaving Badly" post on its front page.
The second URL led to an Austrian site with the translated title "Executioner," which looked too dour and creepy to me, so I didn't even bother poking around.
I approached the third site he mentioned with a little bit more optimism. It was Japanese, so I figured the combination of vast cultural differences, gross translation errors, and the natural hilarity of internet antifeminists would lead to pure win, as they say on the internet.
And at first, I did indeed seem to have struck internet gold. I found myself utterly charmed by the site, which is apparently called "Feminist Fantasy," and which through the magic of Google Translate seemed to be a virtual repository of fantastic Dadaist poetry:
Identity of feminist leadership
America seems to be the queen of quibble.
Around in a thoughtful but very good at sophistry,
In the United States to refrain from the country so fast lady,
I argue that it is no longer anyone to organize a quibble
I can even sort of agree with that. America really is the "queen of quibble."'
But, alas, my euphoria was short-lived. As I kept looking around the site I found some things that even Google Translate couldn't render charming. Like the articles "Sodom, Gomorrah, and the Netherlands" and "Gay marriage is a human misery," which explains, in Google-translate-speak:
In order to destroy the institution of marriage, the idea of same-sex marriage are pushing a plan to destroy the sanctity of marriage.
So God does not bless same-sex marriage in the Bible the same shape as opposite sex marriage.
Yeah, I don't need a perfect translation to get the gist of that article. Or this one, which I reproduce in its Google-translated entirety:
American abomination
Abomination ever played the glorious U.S. military in Iraq. Why such a moral collapse happened. Between men and women of loose morals are the leading cause of it. That gender equality and women soldiers of the United States, the relationship between men and women, who had loose sexual relations, she was weakening resistance to an immoral abuse.
Also, female sumo wrestlers? They aren't having any of that either.
So much for my foray into international antifeminism.
Well your representation of the first two is a clear attempt to distort reality for all here to see and the third example is religious fundamentalism, which is similar to the ideological predicament that you are in.
ReplyDelete@Eoghan
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about? Yohan posted sites he felt represented MRAs. David, whom I assume doesn't speak German, was able to find posts that were clearly anti-women rights and homophobic even after being mangled in a computer translator. (I also don't know what "queen of quibble" is supposed to mean, by the way.)
How is that "distorting reality"? Are you saying that David is making up the quotations? Otherwise are you saying these posts don't represent the beliefs of the non-English MRA sites? Given how many similar posts are posted on English MRA sites, how can you justify your statement that these posts are "distorting reality"?
Tec, the first two sites are legitimate gender equality sites that any real feminist would support.
ReplyDeleteDavid dismissed the first by virtue of the fact that it published well known faux feminist myths that are detrimental to gender equality and because the front page asked the following question
"The female offender raises the question of how the public deals with this issue. Is the society, the media, politics is ripe for a differentiated and gender-sensitive perspective on violence?"
The second is a genuine gender equality site that he has dismissed by virtue of the google translation of its name.
"What does the club name EXECUTIONER?
For one, of course, longer-term vision, because the man is now trapped in role expectations and social norms. Applies to some extent, for women, even if we in "emancipation" are decades ahead of them and now have the upper hand. The basic aim of achieving, we want to contribute to its, the equality of the sexes. In this sense, our logo is designed, to my knowledge the first usable logo men's movement."
And the third site looks like religious fundamentalism which is no better than faux feminism, masquerading as anti feminism.
So, with the first two its David again working to suppress abuse victims and legitimate calls for egalitarianism through negative stereotyping and fallacy. He could find a legitimate problems so he just invented some and pretended that he didnt look on the sites.
And the third site is just some odd ball religious nonsense, much like than the brand of feminism that is supported here.
Edit
ReplyDeleteHe could'nt find legitimate problems so he just invented some and pretended that he didnt look on the sites.
http://manboobz.blogspot.com/2010/11/hit-me-with-your-best-shot.html#comments
ReplyDeleteJohn Dias said...
To all commenters:
Before you bother responding to David's challenge here, let me first translate the title for you:
"Give me a target so that I can barrage it with unceasing meritless criticism."
It's the agenda that matters, David. If you disagree with individual items on the agenda, then you should make your case about the merits of your position.
People, don't take the bait.
November 4, 2010 5:09 PM
As we see now, EXACTLY this what John Dias predicted, is what David did with me.
Not only that, he distorted the meaning even of URLs, for example
David: an Austrian site with the translated title "Executioner,"
http://www.freimann.at/einleitung.htm
This does not mean 'Executioner'.
It means: 'the disengaged man' or 'a free man'.
If you translate it correctly, 'executioner' means 'Scharfrichter' or 'Henker' in German, these are totally different words.
He writes: looked too dour and creepy to me, so I didn't even bother poking around.
But in the other thread, same link above, David wrote in his comment, after I translated for him the meaning of their requests (request = Forderung)
http://www.freimann.at/forderungen.htm
David Futrelle said...
Yohan, I have no disagreements with most of that. Better working conditions for men and women? Of course. The same retirement age for men and women? Sure. (It's the same in the US.) Welfare and legal aid for both sexes? Sure. Obligatory military service? I'm against it for both sexes.
If these were the primary issues pushed by the MRM, I would have no problem with it. (Or at least very few.) Here in the US, most of what the MRM pushes for (and against) is very different than this.
November 5, 2010 4:39 AM
If this what David did with me is not 'distorting reality', then I do not know what it is.
This is ridiculous. David hates MRA's. Him trying to find MRA sites that he likes is like having a redneck who hates rap review a Jay Z album.
ReplyDeleteDavid despises MRA's, and wants them to fail, the only sites that he could possibly find worthwhile would be ones that are so weak and watered down as to be damn near feminist lite, under the banner of men's rights.
Random Brother
David: The first site he mentioned, a German Men's Rights hub called MANNdat, looked, sadly, almost completely identical to any number of American Men's Rights sites, from its page on "Feminist Myths" right on down to the obligatory "Woman Behaving Badly" post on its front page.
ReplyDeleteDavid,
I was looking up these 2 pages you mention,
http://manndat.de/
http://manndat.de/feministische-mythen
and I did not find anything even somehow similar, which I could translate as
"Woman Behaving Badly"
The page you refer (feministische-mythen) is about differences regarding
- Taxes and Social Security Budget
- Protestant Church dialog - shelters for women
- Salaries
- Government Department of Women/Statistics
- Government related research data about violence in general
- OECD Poverty research
- some research data between vacation/short working hours/ salaries comparing man/woman...
That's all I can read here.
Where does it say on its frontpage:
'Women behave badly'?
Despite both countries, Germany and USA are strongly feminist orientated, in Central Europe family laws are significantly different from those in USA.
In Central Europe, using German language in general we do not have such 'hateful discussion rhetoric' between feminists and MRAs as you try to suggest.
I think you still have to learn a lot, especially about foreign countries and foreign languages which you do not understand.
It would be good for you to research more carefully before posting crap.
Help this mangina remove his head from his ass. Maybe he'll make more sense lol
ReplyDeleteI'm still surprised that people hang around here to feed trolls. David doesn't respond to reasonable arguments or counterpoints; he just cherry picks ridiculous crap to prove a point to a small readership that already agrees with everything he has to say (and infuriate a slightly larger readership that hasn't moved on yet). Quit wasting your time, gents.
ReplyDeleteDavid has no idea about what he is writing.
ReplyDeleteNowadays we do not have much problems with feminism in Japan. There is no law in Japan which says, men can do this and women cannot do that. However laws are not against men either.
The legal situation in Japan is quite different from USA and Germany.
I gave a link to these Japanese Anti-Feminism articles, which were written by national-minded conservative men about what they see regarding 'feminism'.
David should understand, that feminism is 'imported' into Japan. Feminism is considered as a movement entering Japan from abroad and not as a local movement as it is the case in USA. Feminism in Japan is promoted most frequently by foreign activists and not by Japanese women.
David cannot read Japanese, knows nothing about Asia and he constructs some sentences out of context and this all done using a simple online translator with plenty of errors. Japanese writing style is complicated.
The text is not really religious, but these people are not Christians, they refer to Buddhism and Shinto.
About the Japanese text, what is really so wrong with that?
Let use check.
About housewife:
The world of egoism...Buddha isn't requesting egoism from you...there are also people practicing their own way how to sacrifice in modern society. That's a housewife. She is abandoning the career, is protecting a home and is distributing prosperity to the family. ...
A housewife should have delight as a housewife.
You should not reject her - who chooses love instead of career.
But there is a problem with the value of the housewife within this present society. A man is supported by a housewife ...
What is wrong with this? Is this misogyny or what?
And about gay/lesbian people:
A Biblical God doesn't bless same-sex marriage with the same shape as the opposite sex marriage...
...
A child isn't born from homosexual's couple. Offsprings will decrease in a city where homosexuality became dominant ...
...
Heterosexuality of a man and a woman secures hereditary abundance of the human race.
...
A homosexual should feel himself/herself be born by heterosexual's love, too.
...
But we think about the Biblical God also to consider homosexual's prosperity.
..... it should be respected. If homosexuals want a marriage certificate, the organization of the homosexuals should issue such a document for them.
What David says is plainly wrong, this article regarding 'Anti-Feminism' is NOT against gay people.
In Japan there is no official marriage certificate for gay people, but there is no objection about any form regarding co-habitation either.
-----
And about SUMO, yes, of course a lot of fun, there is amateur sumo for Japanese girls. There are some fat girls (and boys too) who try it out all the time and enjoy a day where they are respected and not belittled for being overweight. There is also pro-wresting for women. Also any foreigner, men and women in Japan are welcome to participate in amateur sumo.
This article David refers, is not even about female Sumo wrestlers. It has nothing to do with female wrestlers.
It is all about a former female Osaka governor, 2002-2008, who was not allowed to touch with her feet the traditional sumo wrestling ring (a small area of about 4.5 m diameter) because of religious (Shinto) tradition.
David has no idea.
J. Durden said...
ReplyDeleteI'm still surprised that people hang around here to feed trolls. David doesn't respond to reasonable arguments or counterpoints; he just cherry picks ridiculous crap to prove a point to a small readership that already agrees with everything he has to say (and infuriate a slightly larger readership that hasn't moved on yet). Quit wasting your time, gents.
I agree, you are right. It's time waste.
It's about the time to forget this blog now.
Jeez. The first site looked like a typical MR site here. The "women behaving badly" post referred to the article on the front page talking about a female criminal; MR sites here tend to post a lot of that too. I didn't really evaluate it any further because, you know, it's in German, and I don't speak German, and Google Translate is not a reliable guide to anything.
ReplyDeleteThe second site? Google translated the title as "executioner," and it had a bunch of odd black and white photos on it. The "creepy" line was a bit of a joke; I didn't really evaluate it any further because, again, I don't speak the language.
The Japanese site? Well, it had stuff on it that seemed pretty homophobic and anti-woman to me; despite the bad translation, they were pretty much against state-sanctioned gay marriage, and suggested it was intended to destroy the family. They're clearly against gays in the military. And how on earth could you see that last article as anything but woman-hating? I quoted the entirety of that article. Your quotes are pretty selective.
As for John's amazing prediction that, yes, I would go look at the sites you mentioned and might apply a critical eye to them, well, congrats for figuring that out. If you don't want me criticizing a site for being anti-gay and anti-woman, you could always send me the url of a site that, you know, isn't anti-gay or anti-woman.
I agree, Yohan, that a person who chooses to be a housewife (or househusband, for that matter) should not be rejected. Nor should they be denigrated as parasites, or considered as being on a paid lifetime holiday or retirement, as some MRAs are so wont to do. And that is one of the biggest mistakes that some feminists engaged in, supporting the 'unpaid' housework as non-work/housewife as parasite meme instead of vehemently opposing it.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with the "chooses love instead of career" bit, because what does that say about men who choose career? Or is that only applicable to females, that in choosing one they are eschewing the other, whereas for males, they can combine both?
So, you posted some URLs for MRA sites on a blog that criticizes MRA sites, and then **GASP!!** those sites were criticized. Indeed, John is like Yoda!!!
PAM: I don't agree with the "chooses love instead of career" bit, because what does that say about men who choose career?
ReplyDeleteMarried men in Asia usually do not have such a choice, not in Japan, not in SouthKorea, not in Taiwan etc...
The only way to go for them is 'carrier' =
Earning enough money.
The other choice would be not to marry, no children, stay single...
PAM: you posted some URLs for MRA sites on a blog that criticizes MRA sites
I was invited to do so, it was done with the permission of the owner of this blog.
He did not understand the text of these websites however, therefore his critics are simply said wrong.
David: And how on earth could you see that last article as anything but woman-hating?
You mean your fragments out of your freeware-online translator?
David's online-translator:
American abomination
Yohan (as I understand it from Japanese into English, no computer):
アメリカ軍の醜態
The indecent behavior of the US-Army
David:
...the relationship between men and women, who had loose sexual relations, she was weakening resistance to an immoral abuse.
Yohan:
...男女間の関係、性関係がゆるんでいたため、不道徳な虐待に対する抵抗力が弱まっていたのです。
...because of poor/bad sexual relationship between men and women, there is little resistance (or: objection/reluctance/reservation/hesitation) in regard to go ahead with indecent assault.
----
I understand this text as clearly 'a force from men against women' as 虐待 means ONLY mistreatment, assault. (and not willingly with consent) - so tell me, why is this sentence 'women-hating'?
I say it again, David, you know nothing about other countries, you know only your own way of life in 'little America'.
Before you publish crap, accusing others, better ask first and do a careful research about the subject. Daily life, culture, religion, language, laws etc. are not the same everywhere in this world.
Why are you in such a hurry to fill up your blog with nonsense threads?
Are you so afraid of the MRAs?
The japanese site has valid points about Americas use of feminism as a method of ideological imperiamism and culture destruction, but the fact that its advancing christian ideology within the massage makes it less than credible. Its ironic too, because christianity has also been a successful tool of westren imperialism that now seems to have been replaced by feminism.
ReplyDelete@Yohan
ReplyDelete"Married men in Asia usually do not have such a choice, not in Japan, not in SouthKorea, not in Taiwan etc...
The only way to go for them is 'carrier' =
Earning enough money.
The other choice would be not to marry, no children, stay single..."
Granted, it's been more than a few decades since I lived in Asia, so I'm not as keenly aware of the strictness of keeping "proper" gender roles, but to equate love with one's keeping to a strict gender role is just wrong for either sex, in my opinion, as it guilts people into sticking with gender roles that might not be entirely compatible with each individual's essence. It also robs men of time that they could be caring, sharing and bonding with their children during their early years. Father's Rights Activists should maybe take issue with how these strict gender roles relegate fathers to being "weekend Dads" within intact marriages/relationships, rather than single-mindedly focusing only on the role of fathers when the relationship has broken down.
To be sure, online translators aren't perfect, but I'm pretty sure that the below item, from the Japanese site, is stating that feminism means to defy (I know the word translated is "deny" here, but I'm thinking the more accurate might be "defy", but I could be wrong) the institution of marriage, defy housewifery and defy having a large family.
"Concept of gender - the essence of feminism
Feminism and the claim is that
Denial of the institution of marriage, the denial of a housewife (housewives accused prostitute), the denial of a large family,..."
Feminism doesn't mean to defy the institution of marriage in and of itself but, rather, to defy the "traditional", strict gender roles marriage. Or, perhaps, it does defy the institution of marriage in the sense of the state legislating our relationships, but feminism has no problem with persons choosing cohabitation.
I already said that one of the biggest mistakes that feminism engaged in was supporting negative opinions about housewives, echoing sentiments held by men (need I copy/paste again sentiments expressed by men, at an MRA site, regarding housewives?) rather than opposing them.
In a world concerned about overpopulation, defying having a large family is a bad thing?
@Eoghan
"...because christianity has also been a successful tool of westren imperialism that now seems to have been replaced by feminism."
As a feminist and a Christian, the usage of either/both as justification for western imperialism, when the real roots of it are far from feminist and Christian ideals/ethics, pisses me right off.
In a speech to U.S. Naval Academy graduates, during the time when the U.S. was pressuring the U.N. to withdraw peacekeeping troops from Rwanda, President Clinton said "Whether we get involved in any of the world's ethnic conflicts in the end must depend on the cumulative weight of the American interests at stake."
Ah, that's more like how it really is! The U.N. should ensure that any peace-keeping missions directly benefit U.S. national interests.
If I'm incorrect about the "American Abomination" article on the Japanese site, then I'm incorrect.
ReplyDeleteBut it looks to me like it's blaming the atrocities (I'm assuming they're talking about Abu Ghraib) on the fact that the US armed forces have women soldiers.
IF not, then what does this google translated portion of the piece refer to:
"That gender equality and women soldiers of the United States, the relationship between men and women, who had loose sexual relations, she was weakening resistance to an immoral abuse. "
@David and Yohan, the tame in this phrase 男女間の関係、性関係がゆるんでいたため、不道徳な虐待に対する抵抗力が弱まっていたのです seems to be being used in the 'because of' sense. Because of equality, resistance to 虐待 (abuse, oppression) has weakened. Considering that the subject is the (very real) abuses by the US in the Iraq war, it doesn't seem like the meaning was lost in translation here. Though, I fully admit my Japanese reading skills are not the highest and are rusty, since I haven't it since last spring.
ReplyDeleteI would caution you, David, about google translator, because it does kind of stink and can end up with really bizarre translations.
@Yohan, an article about how gay people's relationships are inferior to heteros is anti-gay. Like any other form of bigotry, homophobia is a spectrum. Are the ones that think 'just leave those twisted freaks alone with each other' better than those who think 'let's go kill those twist freaks'? Yes, but it is still a very nasty attitude.
Cat, thanks. I fully realize how completely unreliable google translate is, though in this case the intent of the articles seemed to come through despite the terrible translation.
ReplyDelete