Saturday, February 12, 2011

Valentine's Day, Massacred

Don't let it be said that the dudes of the manosphere aren't ready for Valentine's Day. Oh, they haven't been ordering little teddy bears and giant bouquets of flowers for their sweeties. They've been getting ready to throw a fit at the very notion of the ersatz holiday.

Marc Rudov, a self-described MRA, "relationship expert" and all-around asshole, has been trying to organize a boycott of VD for several years now. "There's nothing romantic about coercing men to oblige female entitlement," Rudov recently told AOL News. "Valentine's Day artificially and unilaterally caters to women. It's the media's annual male-bashing fest."

Over on The Spearhead, grizzled MRA veteran Zed has written not one but two articles attacking VD, which he describes as "Extortion of Insincere Materialistic Tokens of Affection Under Threat of Emotional Violence Day." Meanwhile, Paul Elam -- never one for subtlety -- has one-upped old Zed, denouncing the holiday as "a socially coerced day of hyper-entitlement for a generation of princess leeches." Endorsing Rudov's boycott, Elam seems especially incensed by the omnipresent "Every Kiss Begins With Kay" ads that clutter the airwaves every year as VD approaches.

One commenter at The Spearhead summons up his inner comedian:

There’ two types of VD. One is a potentially serious affliction that can be caught from sexual relations with a woman. Symptoms include tiredness, lack of sex drive, acute pain in the groin region and loss of work productivity. It’s difficult to treat as the parasite responsible is very demanding and difficult to get rid of.

The other is a bacterial infection treatable with antibiotics and rest.

Marc Rudov: Trying to hypnotize you with his teeth.
Ba-dum tsssh!

It's almost cute, all this energy and anger. These guys seem to really think that they're the first people to ever have an issue with Valentine's day, the first people to ever get irritated by "every kiss begins with Kay."

But, guess what? Lots of people hate Valentine's day. I generally find it pretty annoying myself, and the Kay commercials, which basically suggest that the women of America are jewel-hungry prostitutes and the men their johns, set my teeth a-grinding.  Granted, I'm generally been most hostile to VD when I've been single, but when a couple of years ago I discovered that my then-girlfriend was a really really really big fan of the holiday (and not a fan of my more laid-back approach to it) it was actually one of the things that led me to break up with her a few weeks later.

You know who else hates Valentine's day and the blizzard of retrograde sexist advertising that accompanies it? Lots and lots of women, especially those of the feminist persuasion, who generally don't take kindly to the insinuation that women are diamond whores. Indeed, a couple of weeks back, hundreds of the mostly women of Reddit's TwoXChromosomes subreddit happily upvoted a topic with the title "If I see one more freakin' "Every Kiss Begins with Kay" commercial I am going to find whoever is responsible for that nonsense and take a big fat poop on his face. "

Hell, Valentine's Day hatred is everywhere. In the London Times, Helen McNutt -- a woman, if her first name is any indication -- spelled out "20 reasons it's okay to hate Valentine's Day."  Meanwhile, the Onion News Network ran a hilarious piece on the "Annual Valentine's Day Stoning Of a Happy Couple ."

And if you want your VD hatred live and direct, you can always monitor Twitter for bitter anti-VD tweets.

Indeed, VD hatred has become so omnipresent that the folks at Slate, hoping to gin up some pageviews with some well-timed contrarianism, ran a piece -- get this -- actually defending the holiday. "I'm almost afraid to say it," the piece began, "I have plans for Valentine's Day. ... If I'm lucky, there may even be chocolate and flowers involved."

Like a lot of VD haters, I have plans for February 15th. They definitely involve chocolate, bought at a steep discount.

--

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100 comments:

  1. you know the thing about valentines day is that yes it is nice to know that there is one day set aside of every year to celebrate our love for another person, but in reality you should be celebrating that love for each other every single day you are together. The big over the top romantic gestures that people (women included, I really don't think that guys get how much money some women spend on the lingerie for valentines day) are just that. Gestures which cheapen your love for each other and reduce it to material things. My sweetie and I celebrate our love for each other in much smaller more heart felt ways all year round and forgo normal valentines day celebrations. We will usually go and see the vagina monologues together on vd though if it's being performed then in our area, but nothing else. Oh and I hate diamonds with a passion

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  2. LOL

    I can't concentrate from laughing at that caption about that guy's teeth. LMAO.

    I'll try harder...going back for another try.

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  3. Princess Leeches would be a good name for a rock band.

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  4. I also celebrate National Discount Chocolate Day.

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  5. This reminds me, I have to go get chocolates for my staff.

    I would prefer to give them raises but damn you county government!

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  6. I remember, in high school, clubs would sell carnations and cheap chocolate to students to give to their sweethearts. It was sickening and, of course, the fat feminist cutie never got one. So, when I graduated and went into college, I decided Valentines day was going to be "Annual Love Myself" and so I never hated VD again.

    I don't like getting flowers anyway. And I really don't dig on diamonds or jewelry. I'm always in the mood for chocolate though, but discount chocolate always tastes best, especially coming out of a heart-shaped box as I lie in a bubble bath with a book.

    I have a boyfriend now, and nothing's changed. We figure that it's better to love each other as much as possible every day, not just a couple days a year.

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  7. You know, I don’t really disagree with the premise that "Valentine's Day artificially and unilaterally caters to women". I’d bet my comic book collection that most of the candy, flowers, and jewellery that is sold to the consumer is bought by men for women, or women for women. But I thin k that’s because a lot of men (and especially THESE men) have a serious phobia of being considered an object of romance or love by a woman. I mean VD guy is so horrified by the idea he thinks it’s a STD.

    I mean if a woman paid for a fancy dinner, and bought a new watch and some of those candy hearts he liked, he would OWE her, in much the same way that bitch he took for dinner and didn’t put out owes him. And I think that’s what freaks them out, really.

    (And I’m gonna say it: I love Valentines Day, boyfriend hates it, and so like every other holiday out of the year, we compromised. I’m taking him out for dinner, there will be no Mushy Stuff, and I’ll pay the bill.)

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  8. It's good to know that they don't mind the over commercialization of other events, um,like, i don't know ..-the Super Bowl. Nope, no one is ever trying to sell people crap they don't need then. Never happens!

    I don't get mad when people only celebrate/appreciate their country on the 4th of July, why get all bent out of shape when people get into VD? And if that's peoples attitudes, why have Memorial day? Aren't we supposed to think about Veterans all year around? Should we also get rid of Mothers and Fathers day? ** Sarcasm**
    I think it's great that people want to celebrate their love. Nothing wrong with that unless you're with the wrong person. It's funny how people's minds change once they're with the right person. LOL. They get all gushy. It's funny. And it doesn't have to be expensive.
    And plus as many others above have pointed out, cheap chocolate! yummy.

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  9. Interesting.

    When a woman lives with an abusive husband or boyfriend, MRA's say it's her own fault for choosing him in the first place, and anyway, it's not like anyone is forcing her to live with him.

    When a man buys a woman a $20 meal in order to get into her pants (or so his thinking goes), MRA's all go "OMG, she's FORCING him to cater to her entitlement!!" Because, apparently, having a vagina is the equivalent of putting a gun to a man's head and taking his wallet.

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  10. Because, apparently, having a vagina is the equivalent of putting a gun to a man's head and taking his wallet.

    I'm pretty sure that's why so many MRAs are wary of cunnilingus.

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  11. Valentines day always makes me pukey. It always is an ode to upperclass white monogamous heterosexuality.

    Though, funnily enough, I have had a fight over my refusual to celebrate it (I refuse to celebrate a number of holidays for a number of reasons). I was seeing someone fairly casually, and they whined about how I just let valentines day pass by. I laughed and informed them that my birthday was the week before. I did not care about no gift, because we weren't serious, but it was funny for someone to ask for a valentine's gift after missing the birthday.

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  12. The more I read MRA rants, the more I am struck by the fact that they actually have many of the same beefs as feminism; however, an MRA would rather blame a woman/blame feminism. I suppose because it saves them some possibly uncomfortable introspection.

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  13. amused, don't you remember, we are nasty and our vaginas are disgusting because we use bc!

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  14. Today I came home to the most amazing gift. My wife purchased a jellyfish aquarium for my office!!!!! What an amazing gift.

    We don't celebrate with gifts any holidays including birthdays, sometimes though we suprise each other with something we know the other will love. I doubt I can ever top this one though.. (I guess you can tell I love watching jellyfish).

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  15. According to a survey by American Greetings Corp., 85% of Valentine's Day cards are purchased by women.

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  16. In Japan, Valentine's Day is more a time for women to give men chocolate than the other way around.

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  17. If we were honest, we would admit that the only people frustrated or critical of valentine's day are people who either don't have a valentine, don't have the gumption to get one, or are in a less than stellar relationship and feel, somehow, rejected by the whole event.

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  18. *sigh* Not really in response to your post, though thank you for that. :D

    WHY must people propagate the idea that people only don't like valentines because they're single/whatever?

    Nope, really no and huh? Strangely, it is entirely possible for people to have different opinions to you.

    Admittedly I get the feeling valentines day is pushed a lot more in the US than here (NZ). And I don't watch TV or anything so at most I get disgusted at some seriously creepy and sexist radio ads for buying women expensive jewellery. :P

    But I have never liked valentines day, and would really be uncomfortable with a partner who was really into it. I like to buy presents because I saw something and thought of them, and receive them for the same reason.

    I'm in a long term monogamous hetro relationship with someone I love very much, and we've never celebrated valentines day. OTOH the 14 Feb is my (kid) brother's birthday so I associate it much more with that. :)

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  19. Hmm, no bonus laugh in the comments. Have all the misogynists given up on this blog?

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  20. "If we were honest, we would admit that the only people frustrated or critical of valentine's day are people who either don't have a valentine, don't have the gumption to get one, or are in a less than stellar relationship and feel, somehow, rejected by the whole event."

    or we're not all into consumerism

    or we're not American, and as such VD is literally "foreign" to us and remains so after moving to the US

    no, no, it must be the "single" thing.

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  21. I think it's all fine to say that we should show people that we love them all throughout the year, but I think some people do need the kick in the pants that VD provides.

    Also, I have fond memories of it in grade school, where we made cool boxes to put the obligatory cards into, had heart-shaped treats (one year a mom made ALL of us small, heart-shaped cakes--not cupcakes, but 6-8" wide cakes--decorated with pink frosting and candy hearts), and basically got an afternoon off of schoolwork. It was fun.

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  22. oh, I have "fond memories" of VD from High-School, too. no cards, no pressure to date (well, no dating at all, we didn't do that), no expensive gifts, but some organization came in to our school every year and handed out free condoms.

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  23. and the sad part is that feminism is seen as a rights movement while misogyny is a hate crime. let's redefine 14th feb as the day of misogyny.

    "misogyny
    is our support
    system
    just like girls have their.
    little dogs and oversized purses
    and a feminist girlfriend.
    what do we have?
    bar room brawl and a cheap song.
    to forget yesterday
    we need hate."

    here's my clarion call.

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  24. "what do we have?
    bar room brawl and a cheap song."

    Well, I'm sorry that you feel you have such limited options. Of course, if you'd stop whining for a moment, you'd realize you do. But doing that would involve far more effort than whining, I suppose.

    There's no need to hate - you choose to hate, instead of doing something useful.

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  25. "When a man buys a woman a $20 meal in order to get into her pants (or so his thinking goes), MRA's all go "OMG, she's FORCING him to cater to her entitlement!!"---Amused

    Gross assumption about MRAs in general. Not every one of them thinks that way. But we know how you view them, nevertheless.

    I swear your feminists and your hypocrisy never cease. You really make the majority of the MRAs out there look reasonable by comparison. I'ms serious.

    There are MGTOW that think men who still cater to women's every whim and fancy (and let them walk all over them) are suckers. So they often place the onus on some men who simply don't learn not to let entitlement-minded women exploit them.

    There's a certain amount of truth to above. If a woman tried to use me as a walking ATM and bossed me around like a serf, I'd tell her to take a hike and never speak to her again. Who needs to be treated like that? I'd rather be single and proud than be looked upon as dogmeat.

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  26. "There's a certain amount of truth to above. If a woman tried to use me as a walking ATM and bossed me around like a serf, I'd tell her to take a hike and never speak to her again. Who needs to be treated like that? I'd rather be single and proud than be looked upon as dogmeat."

    You know what? I feel the same, but I don't have to fear and loathe men or women to do it. Imagine that.

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  27. Gross assumption about MRAs in general. Not every one of them thinks that way. But we know how you view them, nevertheless.

    I swear your feminists and your hypocrisy never cease. You really make the majority of the MRAs out there look reasonable by comparison. I'ms serious.


    I think this is the chief MRA fallacy, the thing that will keep them from ever being able to effectively change anything (since, as I said before, the goals of many MRA and many feminists are actually the same. I think they'd manage to get some good things done, like paid paternity leave, and that's just to start, if they were actually able to get along).

    "Every MRA is an individual person, and you can't judge all of them by what one [or ten or twenty or a hundred] says!

    Oh, but all feminists are the same. And they're all hypocrites."

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  28. Wytch, and name what feminist here or in real life who has ever told you that was wrong to tell any woman trying to use you for money to take a hike.

    Seriously-name one. Show us the proof that a feminist on here or anywhere thinks that way.

    After reading most of the posts I do not see how you could find anyone who said "nope, you jerk, you have to be a walking ATM." Quite the opposite-they support your decision to not be used for money only.

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  29. why is it that men can want to be with someone for no reason other than to have sex with them, but according to the MRA's and the MGTOW women only want to use them for money. Explain to me how that works with the whole model of women dating men who make less money than they do? Do you guys even think about what you're saying before you open your mouthes?

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  30. ""Every MRA is an individual person, and you can't judge all of them by what one [or ten or twenty or a hundred] says!"---LVvS

    There are posters that feel fine when they act as MRAs are bitter losers compared to feminists, and no one here calls them out in the feminist camp. Why is this? Hmmm . ..

    "Oh, but all feminists are the same. And they're all hypocrites.""---LVvS

    Perhaps because so many of you respond in similar fashion? Or deny your entitlement attitudes under "equality?"

    The problem with that is from what I've encountered there are more echochambers among femninists than MRAs. This site is pretty close to being one---look at the way it handles certain topics.

    In fact, there is a certain amount of in-fighting amoung MRAs because not all of them agree on the issues the same way. If you would actually bother to read some forums (which you don't) you would see it---that is what is hindering their progress politically, not unthinking commonality.

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  31. "Quite the opposite-they support your decision to not be used for money only."---Elizabeth

    Not in practice, from what I've seen.

    Do you realize that many men find it more difficult to find a long term partner because of sticking to their guns in this fashion?

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  32. "Wytch, and name what feminist here or in real life who has ever told you that was wrong to tell any woman trying to use you for money to take a hike."---Elizabeth

    Feminist or not, it does not matter---if someone tried to finanically exploit me, they're on their own. Apparently, you don't read that I wasn't accusing feminists soley about this, btw.

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  33. wytch --

    Uh, if a guy rejects feminists, then insists on a woman who pays her own way, he may indeed have a problem.

    If you want "traditional" non or anti-feminist women, you're probably going to have to pay for their dinners.

    If you want self-reliant women, well, you're probably going to run the risk that many of them will be ... feminists!

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  34. There are posters that feel fine when they act as MRAs are bitter losers compared to feminists, and no one here calls them out in the feminist camp. Why is this? Hmmm . ..

    Maybe because most MRAs act like they are bitter losers?

    "Oh, but all feminists are the same. And they're all hypocrites.""---LVvS

    Perhaps because so many of you respond in similar fashion? Or deny your entitlement attitudes under "equality?"


    Change 'equality' to 'Mens Rights Activism,' and you have the reason why I don't agree with the movement.

    My larger point is that you (and other MRAs, such as Yohan) insist that men be taken as individuals, but deny the same treatment to women or feminists. The words of one feminist is enough to condemn the whole, but every statement by a man should be taken seriously and evaluated as coming from an individual person. Whereas when I speak, I'm simply one mouthpiece of the Feminist Leviathan and can be easily dismissed as a hysterical hypocrite.

    In fact, there is a certain amount of in-fighting amoung MRAs because not all of them agree on the issues the same way. If you would actually bother to read some forums (which you don't) you would see it---that is what is hindering their progress politically, not unthinking commonality

    But why would I want to spend time with a group of people who hate me, look down on me and see me as the enemy, just by virtue of my gender? I have read some of the blogs on the Boob Roll, just out of curiosity. And most of what I read was incredibly hate-filled, with most of that hate being directed at me because I am a woman. And before you try to turn this back around - the MRA mindset is a chosen political stance; my gender is fairly immutable. And no feminist blog I read treats men with the same dismissive contempt as what I've read on MRA sites.

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  35. Random question, but wytch, is there any reason you have to post like 3 comments in succession rather than just one big one? Genuinely not trolling, just curious.

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  36. Wytch-again, no one has a problem with you doing this and those that do are probably not feminists.

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  37. "Uh, if a guy rejects feminists, then insists on a woman who pays her own way, he may indeed have a problem."

    I'm not for feminist (again, which you don't get) because it's about female supremacy. I have no problem with basic equity. It's very uncommon when you find a woman that will pave her own way and doesn't hold a man up to some arbitary standard. Get real and step out of your little social bubbles.

    David and Elizabeth, apparently, don't understand that there are women out there that want to glean the provider benefits from traditionalism and yet the choices from alternative perspectives.

    Like it or not, that's reality for many people.

    "Random question, but wytch, is there any reason you have to post like 3 comments in succession rather than just one big one? Genuinely not trolling, just curious."---thevagrantsvoice

    It's possible that there is something I've done on my end.

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  38. "Wytch-again, no one has a problem with you doing this and those that do are probably not feminists."---Elizabeth

    Maybe *you* don't personally and I thank you for it, but many others just might.

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  39. "Maybe because most MRAs act like they are bitter losers?"---LVvS

    Give me a break---so they don't have a right to complain? Or that feminists are any better in their rants and raves? Please.

    "The words of one feminist is enough to condemn the whole, but every statement by a man should be taken seriously and evaluated as coming from an individual person."

    Actually, one of the reasons why men are speaking up more is because most don't take the issues more seriously than women's issues. I'm sure you'll deny that.

    "And no feminist blog I read treats men with the same dismissive contempt as what I've read on MRA sites."

    Have to call bullshit on that one.

    "But why would I want to spend time with a group of people who hate me, look down on me and see me as the enemy, just by virtue of my gender?"

    From my end, I've tried. Nothing is ever good enough, I've been called a liar or worse, and know you are getting a small taste of what it's like to face misandry every day.

    One reason why I speak out is because I'm done with being treated like shit because I'm a man, and the "bitter loser" nonsense is dismissive and only serves to make us more assured that no one cares enough and feminist compassion is an oxymoron.

    How difficult is that for you to understand?

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  40. wytch

    You and your buddies have been asked many times to find examples within mainstream feminists sites using dismissive contempt. You've also been told you are free to create a blog about feminists like this one.

    You haven't, so I can only believe you can't.

    Why is it your experiences are so different then the men like myself that post here who have good relationships with women?

    The common factor in your relationships is you.

    It is not dismissive to call someone a bitter loser when they have stated as much themselves. Take yohan for example: he says he spent the first 1/3 of his life being teased and mocked. We call people who cannot funtion in relationships with others losers. He is now resentful and angry ie: bitter. He is then a bitter loser.

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  41. Wytch, then stop blaming us feminist for what nonfeminists do.

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  42. Thought experiment for you, wytch.

    How can I get you to like me?

    I am a woman in my late twenties, and I can't really change that. However, let's assume I was willing to change every single aspect of my personality to make it so that the majority of the MRA movement would like me. Or just approve of me.

    Give me specific behaviors.

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  43. wytch --

    I've got tons of feminist sites listed in my sidebar. If feminists routinely treat men with the same bitter contempt that I so easily find directed at women on pretty much every MR/MGTOW site out there, it should be easy for you to find, say, three examples of such contempt from any of these sites in the past month or so.

    So have at it. Provide links.

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  44. Oh, Witchy has evidence. He has links, quotes, academic articles, and books up the wazoo!

    But he's going to keep it all a secret, because Witchy is a coward who can't bear to run the risk of being told he's wrong. Even if it's not even in person. Even if it's just pixels on a screen. The possibility of having his precious evidence "dismissed" is just too high a price to pay. Even if it means he's condemned to wander the blogosphere with a big red metaphorical "L" on his chest (stands for "Loser who never provides any evidence for his fantastical claims but wants to be believed anyway), it's still worth it to avoid being "dismissed" by the feminists he has such contempt for in the first place.

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  45. Oh and Witchy? Just so we're clear? I am not calling you a cowardly loser because you are a man. (Yeah, I know it's hard to believe, but not all men are cowardly losers! Not all men are just like you!) I am calling you a cowardly loser because you behave like a cowardly loser.

    Don't like being called a coward? Then stop behaving like a coward.

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  46. "I am calling you a cowardly loser because you behave like a cowardly loser."---SS

    Self-projection, perhaps?

    You need to look into the mirror.

    Loser. That fits you perfectly, feminist hypocrite. Get lost, attention whore.

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  47. "Don't like being called a coward? Then stop behaving like a coward."---SS

    You have no idea who you are talking to, gutless hypocrite.

    When a feminist made a false charge about me at the last job I worked at, I made a case against her and fought back. She was suspended for days and told not to speak to me outside of professional capacity.

    You feminists will not get away with anything, I assure you.

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  48. "If feminists routinely treat men with the same bitter contempt that I so easily find directed at women on pretty much every MR/MGTOW site out there, it should be easy for you to find, say, three examples of such contempt from any of these sites in the past month or so."--David

    You have proof on this thread already. In fact, your site is amble ammo. Are you that dense? Seriously? I mean, just look at what Sally was rambling about. That's the tip of the iceberg.

    Your whole site is about contempt and mockery. You said the latter yourself, and your followers provide the former.

    Feminism sans contempt, personal attacks, self-projection, and misandry is like Christians without Christ. Lol.

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  49. Wytch, bad example. Ms Strange was referring to a specific male in her comments. She holds contempt for you the singular, not you the member of the male gender.

    So please find some actual sites that show routine contempt for men, not a specific person such as yourself.

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  50. Oh Witchy. I’m starting to see why you are incapable of letting go of the misperceptions about feminism you so doggedly cling to. It must be very useful to you to be able to pass any hostility directed towards you, the individual person, as hostility directed towards men in general. If a woman is hostile towards you, you can pretend that her hostility is due to her feminism, which in your mind is synonymous with hatred of ALL men. If I call you a coward, you can pretend that I must think ALL men are cowards and therefore you are safe in ignoring my criticism.

    You see, this is why I went out of my way to explain to you that I regard you as an individual, not a representative of the male gender. Happily, my experience with the male gender is that most men are not as cowardly and dishonest as you are.

    I am calling you a cowardly loser because you claim to have tons of evidence regarding this alleged widespread trend of generalized man-hating by feminists, but every time you are pressed to provide this evidence, you refuse to provide it because you are, in your own words, convinced that your evidence will be “dismissed”. This should not be an obstacle to providing evidence unless you are a coward who can’t stand criticism, or unless you are actually lying about the existence of this evidence. To make it perfectly clear: the fact that you are a cowardly loser with a fragile ego has absolutely nothing, zip, nada, zero to do with the fact that you have a penis. Your attempts to pass your own personal failings off as failings possessed by all men is noted and recorded as further evidence to file under “Support that Witchy is actually very sexist towards men as well as women.”

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  51. Er, "support FOR THE HYPOTHESIS that Witchy is actually very sexist towards men as well as women."

    Left out a few crucial words.

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  52. "So please find some actual sites that show routine contempt for men, not a specific person such as yourself."--Elizabeth

    This isn't an actual site? Please.


    BTW, SS is projecting. She can bite me---pathetic feminist loser. I fight against cowards like her.

    She's not even worth contempt.

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  53. " . . . but every time you are pressed to provide this evidence, you refuse to provide it because you are, in your own words, convinced that your evidence will be “dismissed”."---SS

    Because that is exactly what you will do.

    You ARE that evidence I need---you contemptuous feminist.

    So, what is it like to be the topic I'm talking to task? Still in denial?

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  54. "This should not be an obstacle to providing evidence unless you are a coward who can’t stand criticism, or unless you are actually lying about the existence of this evidence."---SS

    Are you honestly that fucking stupid? The resounding answer is "yes."

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  55. Wytch-no. The reason this website is not an example of misandry is due to the fact that it is aimed at a subset of males. Not the gender itself. Just as when Ms Strange was criticizing the specific person of you for failure to provide links or comments from feminist websites showing they routinely claim all men are evil or bad or whatever negative claim du jour, so does this blog criticize these specific males for doing that against all women.

    You apparently are unable to distinguish between the contempt that is directed at a very specific person or group and the entire gender. Might want to work on that.

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  56. "You apparently are unable to distinguish between the contempt that is directed at a very specific person or group and the entire gender. Might want to work on that."---SS

    SS is projecting her cowardice and weakness on me, and YOU are in denial about it.

    Deal with it. I never obligated myself to links---you provide all the ammo I need.

    Again, she is not even worth contempt. And you defending her is suspect, isn't it?

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  57. "The reason this website is not an example of misandry"

    It is. And so is SS.

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  58. "Just as when Ms Strange was criticizing the specific person of you for failure to provide links or comments from feminist websites showing they routinely claim all men are evil or bad or whatever negative claim du jour . . ."

    Bullshit. I said that the stigma of being single and a man in the 30/40 range can come from feminists. Not that feminists claimed all men are evil (although some believe this).

    Strawman.

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  59. "I said that the stigma of being single and a man in the 30/40 range can come from feminists."

    Yes you did say that. And when asked for the evidence that led you to believe that, you refused to provide it. So we can reasonably conclude that one of the two following options is true:

    1. You are a coward who, for some reason, is comfortable making generalizations about feminists, but is unwilling to share the specific evidence that led you to form those generalizations because your ego is too fragile to bear having your evidence "dismissed," or

    2. You are flat out lying about the existence of this evidence.

    Either way, your personal failures are on you, not on your sex generally. Though, as I said, your repeated attempts to deflect criticisms of you personally onto criticism of men generally are noted. And it looks like your opinion of men is barely higher than your opinion of women.

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  60. Since you have accused me of misandry, Witchy, you have now obligated yourself to substantiate your accusation. Please point me a specific thing I said--using quotes--that demonstrates my hatred towards men generally.

    Provide a quote that illustrates my hatred of men in general, not my contempt for you, the individual. Witchy =/= all men. Try to remember that.

    Provide the quotes, and I will apologize. Fail to provide the quotes, and you have two options: first, apologize and retract the statement. Second, fail to apologize and be known as a cowardly liar.

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  61. "You are a coward who, for some reason, is comfortable making generalizations about feminists, but is unwilling to share the specific evidence that led you to form those generalizations because your ego is too fragile to bear having your evidence "dismissed," or"

    You're the coward---you keep projecting and lying about me.

    "You are flat out lying about the existence of this evidence."

    It's all over the 'Net.

    "And it looks like your opinion of men is barely higher than your opinion of women."

    That's the most idiotic thing you've said yet.

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  62. http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_single_young_men.html

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  63. http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts11167189.aspx

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  64. http://www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/is-it-really-true-that-95-percent-of-single-men-are-undateable-what-are-your-tips-for-avoiding-the-bottom-95

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  65. "http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_archive.html"

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  66. See, now that really wasn't so hard, now was it? There was no need for the preemptive kicking and screaming and whining about being dismissed. I may or may not regard your evidence as convincing, Witchy, but if you refuse to provide it, I have no choice but to dismiss YOU.

    That's how this whole debating thing works.

    Glad to see you're slowly picking up on it.

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  67. "http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908975,00.html"

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  68. wytch, so you're using an article by a conservative non-feminist as an example of feminists being critical of men?

    And if you think this site is misandric, please cite specific examples of me or any of my commenters posting things that are contemptuous of men as a whole. Examples of people being critical of individual men, or of men with a specific set of beliefs (MRAs, MGTOW) are not examples of misandry.

    Sally, could you cool it with the "cowardly loser" stuff and stick to the substance of your criticism?

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  69. http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/05/27/feminism-made-women-too-picky-more-on-male-rage-sexual-entitlement-and-backlash/

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  70. "wytch, so you're using an article by a conservative non-feminist as an example of feminists being critical of men?"---David

    You are right about one thing---Kay H. considers herself a social conservative. Although she mirrors the "man up" attitude I've seen and read from feminists as well.

    "And if you think this site is misandric, please cite specific examples of me or any of my commenters posting things that are contemptuous of men as a whole."

    That would take half an evening. The motif is there---so is the denial

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  71. "Second, fail to apologize and be known as a cowardly liar."---SS

    I apologize to no feminist.

    Consider yourself an attention whore and a troll.

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  72. wytch, my last comment was in response to your comment linking to the city journal article.

    I haven't looked at the rest in detail, but afew thoughts:

    the rebuking feminism link: I'm really not sure how a diatribe by a strident anti-feminist is proof of feminists being misandrist. He offers no evidence for any of his assertions.

    I've only skimmed the others, but the 95% of men are undatable woman also says that 95% of women are undatable, and I didn't see any evidence she was a feminist either.

    Could you point out some of the specific comments in these threads you think are misandrist, and the evidence that the people beiing misandrist are actually feminist?

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  73. "I may or may not regard your evidence as convincing."---SS

    I.e., "Anything I don't like/agree with is not substantial evidence . . ."

    Speaking of evasiveness and cowardice. Wow. Your arrogance is stunning.

    I'm done with you. You're out. You've lost this debate.


    Go look in the mirror for your own weakness and lies. Like a true feminist should. Adios.

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  74. wytch, as for this site, let's make it simple: find ONE quote from me that is misandrist. No need to spend all night researching. Just ONE post or comment from me that's misandrist. Cite the specific remark by me that's msandrist, and link to it. All I'm asking for is ONE specific example here.

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  75. "Could you point out some of the specific comments in these threads you think are misandrist, and the evidence that the people beiing misandrist are actually feminist?"

    Is it that difficult to read any of them? Please.

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  76. "wytch, as for this site, let's make it simple: find ONE quote from me that is misandrist."

    You don't have to be direct to be misandrist---you claimed MRAs are the enemy---what other proof do I need?

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  77. Hey, person makes an assertion and refuses to provide evidence --> person is either a coward or lying about the evidence. It's an observation, not an accusation. Note that once the evidence was offered, I ceased pointing out the cowardliness of Witchy's stance.

    I read the article by Kay Hymowitz. I saw criticism of cultural forces that lead young men to delay taking on adult responsibilities, including marriage and family. The author regards this is a negative for both society and the young men in question. I suppose calling the young men in delayed adolescence "man-children" and stating that many young women laugh at these young men and bemoan their lack of maturity could be read as "shaming" these men. Particularly if you're a man who shares those characteristics and is feeling a tad sensitive about the whole thing. I wonder about the author's implication that women are not going through a similar delayed adolescence, though. I've seen plenty of women (myself included) that have gone through a similar path to delayed adulthood.

    I've heard of this author before--her book, "Marriage and Caste in America" makes the case for why divorce and single parenthood lead to bad educational outcomes for children, and why this is particularly endemic among poor black families. Are feminists generally known for criticizing single parenthood?

    Witchy, the considerate thing to do is to pick a couple of choice quotes from your articles so that it's less work for your readers to figure out what you're getting at. A link to Plenty of Fish is simply not going to get any clicks from me, unless you make it clear that the link is to an article by a person generally regarded as a feminist.

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  78. MRAs =/= all men.

    Disliking the MRA mindset =/= disliking all men.

    Try again.

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  79. wytch -- How is my criticism of the MRM evidence of misandry? As I've said again and again, I think the MRM is not only bad for women but bad FOR MEN. That's one of the main reasons I oppose it.

    Also, I'm not going to read through ten long threads in search of what you've decided is misandrist. When I cite example of misogyny, I cite specific statements; I don't make people read through hundreds and thousands of words to find it themselves. All I'm asking for is a few specific examples. Again, if you've already gone through these threads and found misandrist statements, it should be trivial to cut and paste them into the comments here.

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  80. Also, just looked at your Time magazine link. How is a profile of an antifeminist (George Gilder) from 1974 proof of feminists hating men?

    You can't prove a claim that x=y by simply finding someone else also asserting the same claim without evidence.

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  81. Wytch-you have provided some links for your claim that feminists are misandrist.

    I have reviewed a few of them and they strike me as...well not feminist (a dating site? Really?) or not showing misandry. The one about the impact of feminism on men, that actually is not a "men suck!" but a reasonable discussion of what makes conservative men angry about feminism.

    And the Time magazine article is from 1974, how is that showing misandry now? The author is blaming women for the fact that men do XYZ when single. If the women would marry men, then there would be less social problems.

    So far, not seeing these as examples of misandry. Do you have any examples that are actually misandrist and showing that feminist hate all men equality or even come close to a MarkyMark?

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  82. Wytch -Or maybe I've missed your point on Gilder. Are you saying that GEORGE FUCKING GILDER's critiques of unmarried men are an example of a FEMINIST criticising unmarried men? Because George Gilder is about as far from a feminist as you can get.

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  83. This whole discussion is bizarre to me. Instead of showing us specific examples of misandry from feminists, many of your links are from people who AREN'T feminists.

    What this suggests to me is that you actually know very little about feminism and so have no idea even where to look for feminist misandry.

    To be perfectly honest, wytch, there ARE feminists who have said misandrist things. I could probably find you a half dozen examples within a few minutes. But they would be from radical feminists, a specific brand of feminism that had its heydey in the 1970s, which has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of feminists today.

    I don't link to rad fems in the "good stuff" links here because, er, I don't think they are good stuff. But within mainstream feminism -- not radical feminism -- there is very little misandry.

    Which is why I challenged you to find examples from me or from the mainstream feminist blogs I linked to. Which you still haven't done.

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  84. Seriously, Wytch, I read the article at the first link that you posted, and read through 3 or 4 pages at the POF comment thread and haven't yet come across anything that I would construe as showing utter hatred and contempt for men.
    I would be interested in knowing what it is in that first article that you believe to be misandrist, and if you could post or somehow direct me towards which posts in the POF comment thread that you believe to be misandrist I'd appreciate that as then I could focus on those posts rather than try to figure out which of the many posts there you think display misandry.

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  85. Although she mirrors the "man up" attitude I've seen and read from feminists as well.

    Is it the "man up" attitude that you find misandrist? Personally, I don't like the "man up" phrase, either, but maybe for a different reason... to me, it is actually meaning for one to "grow up", and I don't think that growing up and becoming an adult is a sex-specific thing, but that's just the feminist in me shining through. But having said that, I still fail to see how telling someone to "grow up" is misandrist.

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  86. "Wytch, I read the article at the first link that you posted, and read through 3 or 4 pages at the POF comment thread and haven't yet come across anything that I would construe as showing utter hatred and contempt for men."---Pam

    Again, I'm talking about 30 and 40 year old men being shamed and mocked, not seething hatred. Why is this lost on you people?

    "Is it the "man up" attitude that you find misandrist?"---Pam

    I would argue that it's sexist towards men in a way.

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  87. "As I've said again and again, I think the MRM is not only bad for women but bad FOR MEN. That's one of the main reasons I oppose it."---David

    If anything, MGTOW has helped me through bad times and anger---you clearly don't know much about the subject you talk about, you only are here to mock and paste examples of certain men venting and not any real issues (accept for showing "misogynists" and imply that the MRM have that largely via guilt by association).

    "Which is why I challenged you to find examples from me or from the mainstream feminist blogs I linked to. Which you still haven't done."

    Don't you have posters that are free here to judge men as whiners, hotheads, and losers on your site? They are doing exactly what I'm talking about and you can't even acknowledge that? What more proof do I need? I honestly question your mechanisms of denial here---look at misandrists like SallyStrange---why would I bother associating with such hatred and negativity like that? If feminists like her rule the roost, you got your work cut out for you.

    You have crank cases that blast any man here that disagrees with feminism as mentally ill, angry, "can't get laid," "cowardly losers" and other slags that demonstrate to me that feminism is filled with smugly righteous jerks that are unsympathetic to men that take them to task.

    That's why feminists don't get a free pass with me.

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  88. "Also, just looked at your Time magazine link. How is a profile of an antifeminist (George Gilder) from 1974 proof of feminists hating men?"---David

    Well, I'll be damned. You actually looked into that.

    I didn't mean to be insidious with my bait there, but at least you took the time to look.

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  89. We certainly judge MGTOW/MRA men as losers, cowardly jerks, whiners, etc but how is that viewing the entire sex such?

    It is not. It is viewing, like Ms Strange, a specific group as such. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?

    Now I am mocking a 34 year old male for being single but that is because this particular man was incredibly vicious during the last local campaign here to perfectly nice woman. So his trying to find a woman after his behavior is very funny to me and I plan on laughing for quite some time at him.

    However, that does not mean all men are as much of an ass as he is. Or even that most men are. Not even you Wytch are like him.

    Do you see the difference now? *figures no*

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  90. "So his trying to find a woman after his behavior is very funny to me and I plan on laughing for quite some time at him."---Elizabeth

    Apparently, many of you don't know much about human nature. A constant stream of vitriol, shame, and mockery often not only serves to heighten the beliefs of those being mistreated and abused (yes, I said abused, and SallyStrange is abusive), but solidify them. It's a tactic bound to backfire.

    "It is viewing, like Ms Strange, a specific group as such. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?"

    You don't get it.

    Because she's a misandrist and has nothing else to come up with than slags based on her own personal weakness. It's really as simple as that despite your own denial (and herd-like defense) of it. It's an tenuous belief system based on her hatred of men that don't agree with her.

    "So his trying to find a woman after his behavior is very funny to me and I plan on laughing for quite some time at him."

    What purpose does this serve? It makes you look like an obnoxious asshat more than anything else and that any "argument" you come up with is based on your own sense of entitlement and smugness. Again, it isn't very wise to provoke someone who is already convinced you are an activist not in his best interest and has an overheated response to it. In fact, I would say you are begging for some reaction to prove he is a "misogynist" while not being responsible for adding fuel to the fire.

    Stupid move.

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  91. I was correct in your utter lack of comprehension.

    Now read this very slowly-HE IS NOT A MISOGYNIST. HE IS AN ASS.

    I mock HIM specifically for being so. NOT you, NOT Cold, NOT my colleagues who are male, NOT ANY MALE OUTSIDE OF HIM. HIM AND HIM ALONE IS THE ASS BEING MOCKED.

    Do you comprehend now? No? What a shock.

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  92. I also do not need his reaction for him to prove himself an ass, he already did it in the last campaign.

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  93. "Do you comprehend now? No? What a shock."---Elizabeth

    You called him an ass, but you also implied that he might be a misogynist by implication.

    It is disingenuous in the way you framed the beginning your post with:

    "We certainly judge MGTOW/MRA men as losers, cowardly jerks, whiners, etc but how is that viewing the entire sex such?"

    Either you are being deceptive or you should practice conveying your examples better. My reading comprehension has nothing to do with it.

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  94. Yep-you certainly did not get it.

    You are being purposely obtuse and refusing to use your own common sense-so why should I bother trying to explain any further?

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  95. What is there to get? That you messed up and won't own up to the fact you implied something that you now are retracting? BTW, by employing caps lock many would agree you are doing a text version of yelling online.

    You have a hard time admitting you are wrong, making yourself clear, or are deliberating being obscurant. Give it up or confess you made a mistake.

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  96. I did not make a mistake-you read something that simply was not there.

    I was pointing out again and again that talking about one specific person or group does not indicate all of one gender and yet you consistently claim that it I am referring to the entire gender which I am most clearly am not.

    You are the one who is purposely ignoring the plain meaning and I am saying enough-you want to remain ignorant by choice, fine by me.

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