Tuesday, February 8, 2011

"I don't hate women. I just want them all to die bitter and alone."

Non-haters also gonna hate.
The "Rant you very much" section of NiceGuy's MGTOW [Men Going Their Own Way] forum is the place for commenters to post stuff that they think might be too crazy and "out there" for the forum's other sections. Given what else is posted over on NiceGuy's -- the stomping ground of a fellow named Nightstorm and his wild fantasies of moustrap vaginas and leech women --  this is a tall order indeed.

NiceGuy richbansha tried his best to live up to these high expectations with a recent rant titled "Why not hate?" Why bother to pretend that we don't hate women, rich asks his fellow NiceGuys, when this won't actually do us any good? As for him, he admits his hatred up front. (I've taken the liberty of bolding some expecially ranty bits in the quote below, and adding a paragraph break.)

Do I "hate women"? You bet your ass!  ...

[T]he most common reason why one of us will deny the possibility that we hate them  is not not look bad. Is there any doubt that they don't hate YOU or that those listening in wouldn't just as soon see you violated? ... No matter what you do, you can still expect the most inconscionable treatment at the hands of AW [American Women]. If the response to both kindness and cruelty are identical, what is the reason for such a lopsided favoritism for appeasement?

When saying that you want to rape and cut up a woman with a band saw is met with the exact same reaction as saying you want to want to buy them a drink, what ... is the incentive to not be hateful and violent? We have seen for ourselves that refraining only makes you are more likely target for hatred and violence. ... So when a stinking cavern gets out of hand why not pulp her? You know you want to. Does anyone really think that stopping yourself or saying you would stop yourself will make it any easier on you?

In a followup post, he blames it all on the alleged tendency of women to adore "bad boys" and treat kind, considerate nice guys -- richbansha apparently thinks he is, or at least was, one of them -- like dirt:

My fate was decided in 7th grade when that girl said I had cooties. ...  If you ever got a "P" in the box on your report card that says "Respects the rights of others" then you are a marked man. ...

I have suffered far more for the things that I had nothing to do with than any active and intentional infraction that I ever committed. ... Who do skanks even call the cops on? Violent meth dealer Bf who routinely beats her and impregnates her or the honest, hardworking auditor who pays for the meth dealer's offspring? Is it any wonder that I think dudes should get on the good side of that equation?

The "good side," of course, being the side of of the girlfriend-beating "bad-boy" meth dealer.

So, yeah, that's what a rant on NiceGuy's looks like.

More interesting to me than the actual rant, though, are the responses of others in the forum. TheDude suggested he tone it down a bit: 

So you think that violence may be the answer when there are thousands of cops who would love to beat your ass because you "disrespected a lady?" I think talking about it on this board just makes us a target and it is bad advice.

In other words, the voice of reason in this discussion frames his advice in entirely self-interested terms: Don't attack women because then cops will beat your ass. Don't talk like this on the forum, because it makes MGTOW look bad.

And then there are those who chime in to say they didn't hate women ... but. There is always a "but." A couple of the "buts" are fairly mild and inoffensive. the american, echoing the famous Dr. Freud, notes

I don't hate women. I just don't understand their thought processes.

Our friend Yohan goes a little further (bold in original):

I am not hateful or violent, but I am highly MISTRUSTING against all and everything a Western female will ever tell me.

It's not only about my past, it's about the present legal situation in feminist countries, which encourages females of any age to consider men of any age, even young boys and old people, even your own father as nothing but trash except for quick money supply.

About hate, it should be said, hate is really bad for your health cousing heart problems, stomach problems etc..

And then there are ... these. Richard Cranium blames those evil Sufragettes (and the manginas who loved them) for it all:

It's not a matter of hating women per se, it's hating what they've become, or more specifically what manginas have let them become. As has been stated here & elsewhere, the day we let them out of the kitchen and let them vote was the day it all went to hell.

Big R takes his non-hatred to a whole other level:

I dont hate them either. I want them to live to see how lonely and suicidal they,ll become when they find out all the men have dumped them forever in the feminized world. I want them to live and suffer without men or the attention they receive from us. ...

I have turned out just a little vengeful towards women for the treatment I have received from them throughout my life. Just seeing an AW maybe lying on the sidewalk after a drunken suicidal depressive drinking binge after being dumped and cheated on would brighten up my day.

Our friend Yohan obliged this last wish by posting a photo of a drunk woman lying on the floor in what appears to be a pool of her own urine, with a friendly little note advising Big R to "have a nice day."

So very considerate, these Men Going Their Own Way.

--

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the "Share This" or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it.

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

125 comments:

  1. One things that's fascinating about these guys is that they believe that if they boycott women, all men will do the same. They're completely delusional.

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  2. If a seventh grade girl calls you cooties it means life as you know it is over.

    You are destined to walk the earth a lonely person, unbeloved by all and forced to wear a mark of shame. A P for um...well dang it. I cannot figure what it would stand for but it means you are an outcast.

    Or, more likely, it means that someone was still immature and you are an idiot for still being upset about it decades later.

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  3. Nice. A girl told him he has cooties, so she should drink herself silly and die. She told him he has cooties! Wow, that's a crime against humanity right there. Because none of us girls have never been told things that are unpleasant, demeaning and disrespectful. Actually, given how these men react to 7th grade, it's they who are more likely to kill themselves. My only hope that they do the world a favor by not shooting up a gym.

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  4. Elizabeth: It's also possible he did have cooties. Never mind childish insults, those guys can't handle constructive criticism, either.

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  5. "I'm not a misogynist, I just think women suck."

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  6. As a NiceGuy who evolved into a mangina I have to say I like myself better now.
    I don't have to hate or "other" half of the population.
    And I have a lot of great people who saw my potential to get over all that privilege and ignorance.

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  7. So when are these Men who are Going Their Own Way gonna actually, y'know, go their own way?

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  8. @Cynickal: hear, hear. I think being a NiceGuy in your early years is pretty normal, for a lot of reasons. The problem is if you get stuck there.

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  9. I agree with Pam, will they hurry the fuck up and leave?

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  10. You're dating a woman who's also dating a meth dealer?

    Well, uh, there's your problem.

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  11. I think their "Taking the Ball and Going Home" tactic is somewhat adorable, if it weren't so creepy. I mean seriously? They think every man has the urge to violently assault women? Uhhh, that might tell us more about them than they think.
    They can keep calling decent men manginas. It won't stop women from appreciating those men.
    As David said: when will they actually go their own way and shut the fuck up :( ?

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  12. I've had cooties ever since first grade. Maybe someday there will be a cure... :(

    As a NiceGuy who evolved into a mangina I have to say I like myself better now.
    I don't have to hate or "other" half of the population.
    And I have a lot of great people who saw my potential to get over all that privilege and ignorance.


    Word. I, too, have traveled that path. It's a shitty place to be, and I would like to give our friends hope that it doesn't have to be that way. Whether they accept it is entirely up to them.

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  13. I've never really understood why "mangina" is supposed to be an insult. In the MRA's conception of the human race wouldn't a man with a vagina be the perfect being?

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  14. Raul Groom said...
    In the MRA's conception of the human race wouldn't a man with a vagina be the perfect being?


    The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick.
    --- Germaine Greer ---

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  15. Fun fact-- cooties wasn't always a disease that plagued only nice guys. It used to be a synonym for lice.

    ...maybe that's why this gentleman can't keep a date...

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  16. "The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick.
    --- Germaine Greer--"

    So THAT explains all the yaoi manga I've seen...

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  17. So wait...the ideal MGTOW partner would be Buck Angel?

    (do not google his name if you are at work, school or public situation)

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  18. They are so funny because they think their hate makes them special. There hasn't been a morning when I haven't wanted to burn the world down. But, I get a little breakfast and I'm ok. Maybe it's just their diet or something. And I can't believe he's still holding on to the cooties thing too. Let it go, bro, let it go.

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  19. .....Big R takes his non-hatred to a whole other level:
    Just seeing an AW maybe lying on the sidewalk after a drunken suicidal depressive drinking binge after being dumped and cheated on would brighten up my day.

    Our friend Yohan obliged this last wish by posting a photo of a drunk woman lying on the floor in what appears to be a pool of her own urine, with a friendly little note advising Big R to 'have a nice day.'


    I wonder, what David will say, if I post a picture of a drunk MAN in our NiceGuy-Forum.

    Hmmm, David?

    Instead of complaining about MRAs posting a picture of a drunk woman, David should better tell women not to drink too much.

    Is it normal behavior for any woman to drink so much that she is unable to control her piss while going out in public?

    To mention the existence of drunk women is highly misogynistic, obviously women have the right to be fully drunk and piss in public and it is not politically correct to talk or posting pictures about this subject.

    And David, FYI, I am NOT your friend.

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  20. Cynickal: Welcome! After reading such horrible things quoted in the post, it was nice to get a little encouragement from your comment.

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  21. If Dave or one of the commenters had said "I have turned out just a little vengeful towards men for the treatment I have received from them throughout my life. Just seeing an AM maybe lying on the sidewalk after a drunken suicidal depressive drinking binge after being dumped and cheated on would brighten up my day", and someone posted a passed out drunk guy for cheering up purposes, you might have a point.

    But they didn't, and you don't.

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  22. johnny-- No, man, Buck's a feminist. The MGTOW would totally call him a mangina, in possibly the only logical use of that term in the history of ever.

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  23. For that matter, who enjoys taking pictures of passed out drunk people (of either sex), putting them up and laughing at them? Seems kind of...sad and unsporting to me. That by itself doesn't have much humor, unless you get your jollies off at the shaming of random people.

    HAHAHAHA THAT PERSON IS SO INTOXICATED S/HE'S UNCONSCIOUS LOL

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  24. Ozy--and I bet he would take it as a compliment.

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  25. Wow, now I remember why Germaine Greer is known for being such a transphobe.

    I'm adding another "used to be a Nice Guy and then grew up." It helps when you learn that women are people too.

    I still wonder how these people can have presumably met actual women, and how they can be straight when they find women so physically repulsive.

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  26. Benjamin said...
    I still wonder how these people can have presumably met actual women, and how they can be straight when they find women so physically repulsive.


    MRAs do not find ALL women so physically repulsive as you presume without any evidence, you are wrong.

    Most MRAs are straight and many of them are married but they choose their wife carefully.
    What's wrong with that?


    I do not drink alcohol. - I know in your feminist eyes that's already misogynistic selfish and boring, but sorry I am not interested into a partnership with a female psycho who is an alcoholic and drug-abuser.

    And what is wrong with a male being straight anyway?

    I know also women, who are openly straight and are interested sexually only into men and not into women.

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  27. Yohan, you're fighting with yourself again. Try listening to what others are saying and their positions won't seem so ridiculous.

    Also, your english is usually pretty good but your last sentence was way off. It should be something like:

    "I also know women who are openly straight and only interested in men sexually and not women."

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  28. (Hint, no one is saying there is anything wrong with being straight or that not liking drunks makes you misogynist or selfish)

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  29. @ Yohan:

    Perfectly fair, I am (contrary to popular opinion of women in general) also not interested in a relationship with a psycho alcoholic drug-abuser. I certainly don't think that makes me a misandrist. Of course, not every person who drinks is an alcoholic or drug abuser.

    I also, despite being an American woman raised by Americans, do not view my father, brother, boyfriend or male friends as 'trash.' If you want us to stop generalizing about what MRAs think, say or do, then knock it off with the generalizing about what American/Western women think, say and do. Some MRAs think women are disgusting subhumans, and some women see men as a meal ticket. But just because some do it, doesn't mean that all of them do. And the feminist movement is quick to criticize the women who view men as a meal ticket - is the MRA as quick to criticize men who write about the repulsiveness of women?

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  30. n00b here. First time post.

    Anyway, you have to realize that if these type of guys could only commit a crime harsh enough to put them in the loony-bin for life they could find lots and lots of HB10's!

    Exhibit A:

    Caged Casanova

    Yaknow, can I just say something right here and right now about the whole MRA/PUA bullcrap about women loving "killers"?

    Mentally ill people attract like you idiot phucks! Do you think normal, sane, attractive women are attracted to psychos and whack-jobs? Uhm. NO. Since most whack-jobs don't find love until they are in hospital with other whack-jobs when normally both sexes of said whack-jobs would have never interacted or been in a co-ed situation for a long time unless some sort of 'event' or 'violence' happened to force them into said situation.

    Hermit psycho love does not equate hypergamy and just because your ugly ass got rejected, don't forget that some ugly ass girl got rejected by some ugly ass guy like you too. It's called being painfully ugly and it happens to both sexes.

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  31. The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. -- Germaine Greer --

    Except she never said that.

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  32. The idea that she said this must come from somewhere, who else could say something like that? And I think, it's a funny comment compared to her general hateful rhetoric.

    Greer: I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I'm concerned, men are the product of a damaged gene. November 1991

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  33. Lady Victoria von Syrus said...
    @ Yohan:
    .....If you want us to stop generalizing about what MRAs think, say or do, then knock it off with the generalizing about what American/Western women think, say and do.
    .....
    Some MRAs think women are disgusting subhumans, and some women see men as a meal ticket. But just because some do it, doesn't mean that all of them do.


    As you said correctly, SOME do it, and how many are 'SOME'? 50 percent, or more? or less?
    How do you know as a man in advance, who will do it and who will not?

    As a woman - in general - you do not have any risk - the financial risk that something is going wrong is solely with the man.

    The problem is clearly with the present legal situation in feminist countries, which encourages women to 'take as much as they can' even decades after divorce.

    These men mentioned below can pay, but what happens with men who cannot pay? Living in a van, or in jail or what?

    One example:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331925/Lottery-winner-Nigel-Page-pay-ex-wife-2m-left-10-years-ago.html

    A lottery winner has been left appalled after the wife who left him for another man ten years ago was able to grab £2million of his winnings.

    Or what about something like that...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1163455/I-need-53-000-week-just-cover-basic-expenses-Estranged-wife-demands-100million-divorce-trial.html

    Swedish-born Countess Marie Douglas-David, 36, has claimed that the $43million deal outlined in a postnuptial agreement is not enough for her to live on.
    The former investment banker says she has no income and needs more than $53,000 a week from her American estranged husband, United Technologies chairman George David, in order to cover her expenses.

    And the feminist movement is quick to criticize the women who view men as a meal ticket...

    I never heard or read anything like that in my life. Do you have any reference for that?

    For example this article below does not confirm what you say....

    ....the agenda of women's rights was based on the premise that you can fix equality for women with no reference at all to men.

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  34. "I've never really understood why "mangina" is supposed to be an insult."--Raul

    So, you like being used?

    It's supposed to mean you are a fool that lets yourself be a doormat and be exploited by others (espeically women), or believe by sucking up to women you can garner their favor. Among a few other things.

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  35. "And the feminist movement is quick to criticize the women who view men as a meal ticket..."

    I've never heard this, either.

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  36. "They are so funny because they think their hate makes them special."---Valerie

    Even more funny is that feminists think their own hate makes them even better. And entitled.

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  37. ""I've never really understood why "mangina" is supposed to be an insult."--Raul

    So, you like being used? "

    Are you implying vaginas exist solely to be used?

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  38. ch3f said...
    n00b here. First time post.

    Yaknow, can I just say something right here and right now about the whole MRA/PUA bullcrap about women loving "killers"?
    .....
    Do you think normal, sane, attractive women are attracted to psychos and whack-jobs? Uhm. NO


    Uhm. NO? Are you sure?

    Maybe you reconsider, sometimes YES...

    http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/02/07/married_a_prisoner/index.html

    My husband, the convicted murderer
    .....
    I called Kate, my closest confidante and told her I had met a fascinating man. "But he's in prison for murder," I said with a grim laugh.

    In her usual unflappable way, Kate calmly told me a story of a friend she'd had a long time ago in Hollywood. She'd met a man in prison, too -- and married him.
    .....
    On parole..... after 18 months, I asked him to leave. We divorced that year.


    Or what about this one:

    http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/81382517.html

    Deputy wrote love letters to murderer

    Detentions deputy Margarita Young was arrested Monday on suspicion of having sex with high-profile murderer Timothy Titus Rodriguez was he was incarcerated in the pre-trial facility.

    Rodriguez was sentenced to death last week for killing 90-year-old Thelma Long and beating her 59-year-old daughter.....


    Not enough reading stuff yet?

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3239215/Woman-prison-teacher-suspended-for-filming-pornographic-film-with-murderer.html

    A WOMAN prison teacher was suspended for filming a porn movie of her having sex in jail with a murderer.

    Beverley Van-de-Velde, 59, shot the romp with killer Richard Francis, 29, in a high security jail's staff room.

    ..... discovered the 17-minute DVD among hundreds of love letters she wrote to him in his cell.

    ..... having unprotected sex with Francis in several positions. The feared gang leader was caged for 13 years for murder ...


    and another story...

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3191452/Prison-governors-wife-accused-of-naked-romp-with-convict.html

    A PRISON governor's wife has been accused of romping naked with a lag serving life.

    She and Raphael - serving at least 20 years for attempted murder - were said to have been found in an embrace by another officer.

    A source said last night: "She was on the prison's thinking skills programme.


    The prison's thinking skills programme....

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2564533/Prison-officer-alleged-to-be-selling-sex-in-prison.html

    A FEMALE prison officer has been suspended after allegations that a convict paid £50 for sex.


    How many more links do you need to show you that women are frequently in thugs, regardless in or outside of a jail?

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  39. "Do you think normal, sane, attractive women are attracted to psychos and whack-jobs? Uhm. NO

    Uhm. NO? Are you sure?

    Maybe you reconsider, sometimes YES..."

    You think these are normal, sane women? Most women do not think this way.

    There are not enough psychos and whackjobs out there to use the women who are psycho groupies to make any determination about what the average woman likes.

    If you don't want people judging MRAs on the basis of a few nuts then you can't judge women on the basis of a few nuts.

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  40. Some kind of statistical analysis indicating the trend is significant in comparison to, I don't know, the number of people who watch janitor porn?

    Also, where is proof underscoring your implied assertion that these women meet ch3f's qualifiers, i.e. are "normal, sane, attractive?" (Since if they don't, they can't serve as counterexamples.)

    *

    FWIW, I'm not much of a fan of ch3f's argument. Sometimes people are attracted to people who will not create healthy relationships with them. I have known ladies who thought the genuine nice guys were boring, and chose to date the assholes who sabotaged their contraception instead. I have also known dudes who prefer women who use hard-core drugs, and dudes who consistently pick women who are less intelligent than they are because they find that an attractive quality and then later get bored with them. I have no problem with any of these choices, qua choices, except inasmuch as they don't accomplish what my friends tell me they want. If the guy who dates hard-core drug users tells me that he wants to date people who are open to the metaphysical experience of chemically altered consciousness, then fine. If he tells me later that he really wants a stable relationship and can't figure out why most of his girlfriends are sad and unstable, then I might consider pointing out to him that while there are probably hard-core drug users who are also stable enough to provide what he wants, he probably needs to include stability as a priority when he looks for new partners, and possibly also to understand that the group of people he'll be able to find who meet both criteria may be smaller than if he dropped one of them.

    People pick partners for all sorts of reasons, good and bad. Sometimes they're reasons I agree with. Sometimes they aren't. That doesn't make them objectively good or bad.

    And it's not as simply correlated to "sane" as ch3f's somewhat ableist comment makes it out to be.

    What I can't figure out is, at this point in my life, the men I'm attracted to are generally shy, kind, and beta. Does that get me MRA points because I'm not interested in thugs and alphas? Or does their being shy and kind make them "manginas?" It kind of seems like no matter how a woman conducts herself, she will still be seen in a negative light. Almost as if the common denominator were some kind of bias like, I don't know, misogyny.

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  41. So Yohan
    What would be worse, being a woman in love with a cold blooded killer or being a cold blooded killer?
    Next question cupcake . Do female killers get fan mail from men? (the answer is yes).

    What is worse, being a thug or dating a thug?

    All in all your statements come across as making men look worse then women. I know this wasn’t your intention.

    Normal, sane people know that thugs date thugs. Normal sane people know that the underclass dates the underclass, ie: gang members date the girl who grew up in the projects with him.

    Normal sane people know that people almost always stay within their own social economic group. Are they exceptions? Of course there are but not only are they rare they rarely work out well.

    I attended Ridley College. How many of my classmates do you think marrying women or men beneath their station in life? (Sorry if that comes across as pompous). The answer as far as I know is none, and btw divorce is very rare amongst my high school peers. How is it a surprise that people in the ghettos of life end up together?

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  42. Yup, many MRAs are married, but to the women that "are the exception" - who are told so, repeatedly, that THEY get it, that THEY are not like those femi-nazis who hate men, that THEY aren't like those bitches who want to take their money and children, etc. etc. etc. It is conditioning, in a way, to accept their MRA activities. What are you going to be, a bitch about it?
    They love the sensationalist stories of multi-million dollar alimony agreements or other tiny portions of the population to reinforce these views - any rape allegations dropped, anything.

    ReplyDelete
  43. jupiter9: You think these are normal, sane women?

    Normal or not, what does this matter?

    The problem is that feminists doing their best to excuse such behavior.

    These examples are good examples, as it is very difficult to blame a man who is already in a jail cell.

    These women - normal or not - are these so-called strong independent women, working as journalist, a teacher, a prison deputy, a prison governor's wife....
    these women were not housewives - or you might call them doormats etc...

    These reports - I made a short yahoo search - are only about women with men in jail, but what about all these many girls/women with strong preference for thugs who are still outside and not behind bars yet?

    What about this youth thug and his girl thugs...

    http://galitsin.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/13-year-old-thug-filmed-pals-torturing-teenage-girl-in-45-minute-beating/

    A boy of 13 filmed his female friends torturing a girl for 45 minutes.
    He goaded the girls into kicking, punching and stripping the 14-year-old.
    And he ordered the attackers – aged 13 and 14 – to kick the victim’s head like a football on the count of three.


    It was always like that. If the boy/man is a thug, he is doing something which is 'not boring' and the girls admire him. No problem to find any girlfriend.

    EXACTLY my personal experience when I was still in high school many years ago. I was 15 or 16 years old, a girlfriend for me? No way. What can I offer? Nothing.

    Girls for a boy-thug in burglary/robbery/assault? How many you need?


    Maybe feminists could tell all these single moms and their daughters to stay away from thugs and choose their personal contacts more carefully instead blaming boys/men (those without criminal record) for all and everything.

    I am totally fed up with this feminist BS-talk, telling me about privileges as a male. I never had any privileges.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Some MRAs think women are disgusting subhumans, and some women see men as a meal ticket.

    This is not a fair comparison. "Women" is not a voluntarily chosen ideological group. That's why othering and generalizing them is both irrational and harmful.

    MRAs choose the label. The label doesn't describe their genitals or their expected role in society, it describes what they believe. And what the label describes is hatred for women. I have no problem generalizing MRAs. If a person doesn't want to be seen as a misogynist, they should distance themselves from the label.

    A lot of people on the non-crazy side of the fence still seem to insist of hedging and saying "well there's probably good things about the MRA movement too," apparently in the interest of sounding civil.

    There aren't good things about the MRA movement. Plain and simple. The entire idea of "men's rights" is born of hatred for women. The denial that men already occupy the privileged position in society is misogynistic. Yes, patriarchy does hurt men, too, but all the ways in which it hurts men are side effects of elements of the system designed to oppress women. Feminism helps both men and women by attempting to dismantle traditional notions of gender, so we don't need a separate "men's rights" movement.

    The men's rights movement fights hard for traditional notions of gender, all the while pretending that that makes them edgy and brave.

    It's the same as the people who think that American society is easier on minorities than it is on whites. Those people are racist. They're not just misguided or confused, nor do they have "some good points." They're racist.

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  45. "These examples are good examples, as it is very difficult to blame a man who is already in a jail cell.

    These women - normal or not - are these so-called strong independent women, working as journalist, a teacher, a prison deputy, a prison governor's wife....
    these women were not housewives - or you might call them doormats etc..."

    I don't call "housewives" doormats. Feminists are among those who have worked to recognize all work as work, even if it happens inside a house or with children.

    And look again at the list -- teacher? That's a stereotypical woman's job. Prison governor's wife? Wha? That's kind of the definition of someone who gets her status from her husband, if that's all you can use to identify her.

    "Maybe feminists could tell all these single moms and their daughters to stay away from thugs and choose their personal contacts more carefully instead blaming boys/men (those without criminal record) for all and everything."

    Feminists aren't the queen bees that direct the activities of all the other girl bees.

    Feminists tend to be less charmed by "bad boy" behavior than "normal" women. Why? Bad boys provide vicarious excitement. If you are in control of your own life, you can find your excitement through your own means and not have to get it from a man.

    Unless you count as "bad boys" the kind of men who don't wear a suit.

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  46. Hey, the unemployment rate is way higher for blacks than for whites. Obviously, they're just lazy. You know, with a few exceptions.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I'm edgy! I bet none of you ever thought of saying that! Now watch the oppressive anti-white tyranny come shut me down! Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! I'm being repressed!

    ReplyDelete
  48. rachel-swirsky said...
    What I can't figure out is, at this point in my life, the men I'm attracted to are generally shy, kind, and beta. Does that get me MRA points because I'm not interested in thugs and alphas? Or does their being shy and kind make them "manginas?"


    I think, any woman who stays away from some certain people and certain places and is willing to talk face-to-face with a man (1-1 and not one group with another group) in a not-noisy nice environment, like in a park or restaurant etc. and shows some kindness and patience and not into shopping after the first 3 sentences (you buy me, I love you etc) will get what you call 'MRA-points' (interesting, the first time I hear that... MRA-points...that's a great idea!)

    About shy men etc. I think, many men are worried to say something 'wrong' which can be used against them later on.

    Men in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a woman without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the girl.

    This behavior has nothing to do with being a 'mangina'.

    What MRAs consider as a mangina is totally different.

    ReplyDelete
  49. triplanetary said...
    Feminism helps both men and women by attempting to dismantle traditional notions of gender, so we don't need a separate "men's rights" movement.


    That's the joke of the day.

    It's not you - the feminist - who decides, what is good for men and what is not.

    If men want to create their men's rights movement, they are fully entitled to do that.

    ReplyDelete
  50. "Men in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a woman without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the girl."

    In many cases this is because they think of women as a separate species and haven't cultivated female friendship. If you only talk to women in a sexual context, it's hard to make small talk.

    ReplyDelete
  51. So, me, feminist. Married to beta male. Best friend, another beta male. Both beta males have taken a great deal of crap in their lives for not being dominant, alpha types, including enduring a lot of violence from dominant, alpha types. Most of that violence was childhood bullying, but things still happen occasionally. Last year when we traveled to New Orleans, a bigger, drunk man called my husband a "fag" and we slipped away before he could start a fight.

    Both men see the path to their freedom as being through feminism because they'd really like to not be treated like crap by other men because they aren't dominant and masculine. They're both straight, but sometimes read as gay, and sometimes targets of violence for that. Both men prefer friendships with feminist men and women because the feminist men and women don't hate on them for speaking with their hands, or not liking football, or being super shy in groups, or liking to talk about their feelings, or sometimes wanting to wear pink because damn it's just a color. Despite your assertion that they're shy because women might interrupt them, both of them are more shy around strange men than strange women, because both of them are wary of violence from alphas.

    Are they manginas yet? If you don't think so, that's cool. There's at least one thread in the forum you moderate dedicated to how one of them is.

    ReplyDelete
  52. The men's rights movement fights hard for traditional notions of gender, all the while pretending that that makes them edgy and brave.

    No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Yohan:

    Having been reading this blog for some time now, I cannot help but notice a distinct pattern to your debating style.

    For example. Were our host to encounter a post on an MRA site saying ‘It is my lifelong fantasy to destroy a woman’s face with battery acid and stand masturbating frenziedly over her disfigured, weeping wreck.’ And if our host were then to post it on his own blog with appropriate commentary.

    Your good self would then enter stage left, saying something along the lines of ‘so what’s wrong with masturbating, David? I’ve met plenty of women who masturbate. You manginas think they’re all perfect princesses and you think it’s just men who masturbate - well I have news for you white knights, IT’s NOT!’

    If ‘grasping the basic point of an argument’ was an academic subject, it would take you a lifetime of devoted study to keep up with the eight year olds in the special needs class.

    I congratulate you, sir. You are a true credit to your cause.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Also, this is something else that's always sort of confused me about MRA positions. My beta male husband who has never been in trouble in his life, who goes totally silent in groups of four or more strangers, who in high school was a glasses-wearing 90-pound weakling, the kid whose family couldn't always afford food who had to bus in to a high school by the country club, who owned two pairs of jeans that had to last him from eighth grade to senior year, whose body language is swish, and who got beaten up every day of junior high...

    ...he had all the sexual partners he could ever want from age thirteen onward. Friends, strangers, romances, threesomes, oral sex, hand jobs, two-girls-one-guy, two-guys-one-girl, group make-out sessions, women who looked like they were from magazines, women who looked like they were out of porn movies, women who were fat, women who were ordinary-looking, women who were ugly, women at the top of the social hierarchy, women in the middle of the social hierarchy, women at the bottom of the social hierarchy, women older than he was, women younger than he was, a couple self-identified lesbians who casually wanted some dick... he had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more sex at a younger age than any alpha dude I've ever run into.

    So the "beta males can't get laid because all women are into hypergamy" thing really confuses me. He's never been at the top of the social ladder. He didn't have money or prestige or leather-coat-cool or thuggishness. He never got high grades in high school or had any access to money. He did eventually end up in his early-twenties being convinced he was smart enough to go to college, where he started fulfilling his intellectual potential and went into a field with decent income--but all that happened significantly after he started screwing.

    I mean, it's easy for me to make guesses about why he's popular with the ladies. He genuinely likes the company of women, he's kind, he's happy to have no-strings attached sex, he's attracted to a range of bodies. As his wife, I also have to say, I think he's the nicest, most generous, genuinely good person ever.

    But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? If we accept that American women are into hypergamy, then what's up?

    ReplyDelete
  55. The other problem I have with Yohan is that he absolutely insists that each quote, thought or belief expressed by an individual MRA or MGTOW be taken as solely representative of that one person and not the movement as a whole. Which, in and of itself, is not quite a bad thing - except that Yohan then turns around makes the exact same generalizations about women (as a gender) that he threw a fit over when they were made about men (as indicative of the beliefs of a subset of the gender).

    ReplyDelete
  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Transposing Yohan’s broad generalizations from the man/woman binary to the white/black binary reveals just how ridden with logical fallacies and bigotry his thinking really is. Also, typing it out made realize (painfully) how poor his grasp on basic English grammar is. This person is MODERATING a chat forum? They must be hard up for moderators.

    I think, any black person who stays away from some certain people and certain places and is willing to talk face-to-face with a white person (1-1 and not one group with another group) in a not-noisy nice environment, like in a park or restaurant etc. and shows some kindness and patience and not into hip hop after the first 3 sentences will get [approval from Whites’ Rights Activists]. (Paraphrasing here.)

    About white people, etc. I think, many white people are worried to say something 'wrong' which can be used against them later on.

    White people in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a black person without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the Negro.

    This behavior has nothing to do with being a 'race traitor'.

    What MRAs consider as a race traitor is totally different.


    As John Lennon said, Woman is the Nigger of the World. And I promise that will be the last time I use the n-word in this forum. Sorry if it was jarring. I do think “race traitor” is a fair analogy to the “mangina” term.

    ReplyDelete
  58. "As John Lennon said, Woman is the N* of the World."

    Because race politics aren't global...?

    I mean, I understand the point, but uncritically repeating Lennon's phrase is a problem. I like to hope that feminist dialogue on race has moved past expressing it in a way that minimizes colonialism/imperialism/racism.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @Denia

    "The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. -- Germaine Greer --

    Except she never said that. "

    I rather suspected she hadn't because, even though I have not read all of her work (or even most of it), considering that she is infamously transphobic. I just can't picture someone who devoted an entire chapter of one of her better known books to bashing trans women and who said this:

    "Whatever else it is gender reassignment is an exorcism of the mother. When a man decides to spend his life impersonating his mother (like Norman Bates in Psycho) it is as if he murders her and gets away with it, proving at a stroke that there was nothing to her. His intentions are no more honourable than any female impersonator's; his achievement is to gag all those who would call his bluff. When he forces his way into the few private spaces women may enjoy and shouts down their objections, and bombards the women who will not accept him with threats and hate mail, he does as rapists have always done"

    as someone who would ever respect the notion that someone with a penis could be identified as a woman.

    ReplyDelete
  60. I certainly didn't intend to minimize racism/colonialism/imperialism, and if it came off that way then I apologize. I also don't mean to gloss over the problems feminism has had and still has when addressing racism.

    I was trying to illustrate that in America today, casual sexism seems far more socially acceptable than casual racism. I often find that illustrating a point about sexism with a parallel drawn from racism find a more receptive audience amongst those who are genuinely curious about feminism.

    ReplyDelete
  61. thevagrantsvoice said...
    "No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women . . "

    I understand where Paul is coming from on that matter. I don't like feminism or traditionalism---neither are for real equality as a given rule, it seems.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation (she must approach you alone, she can't approach you in a place that's "noisy" or not "nice," she has to be "patient" with you no matter how you respond), read ugly ulterior motives into things she might say (if she brings up shopping, she's trying to force me to buy her something OMG!), and make it clear that you go into any conversation with a woman assuming that she'll be stupid, boring and venal...and in THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE you're whining about how it's too hard to talk to a woman because she might look down on you for saying "something 'wrong'."

    Are you aware of the concept of projection?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Sally, I know you were being sarcastic, and I understand the point you ware making, but I deleted your first post with the n-word; I don't want to see that sort of language here (with a possible exception if it's in a direct quote; I left your reference to the John Lennon song up). I think your comments without the n-word made your point much more clearly, in any case.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Yohan:

    Having been reading this blog for some time now, I cannot help but notice a distinct pattern to your debating style.

    For example. Were our host to encounter a post on an MRA site saying ‘It is my lifelong fantasy to destroy a woman’s face with battery acid and stand masturbating frenziedly over her disfigured, weeping wreck.’


    No idea, what you mean with that.
    I never commented to threads like that...

    Please explain...

    ReplyDelete
  65. shaenon said...
    Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation..


    Well you will have to accept the fact, that not only women, but also men haav the right to make a choice and to say NO!....
    Not every man is into nightlife, alcohol, drugs, thug-life... Sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  66. > Are you aware of the concept of projection?

    For those who aren't:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    ReplyDelete
  67. SallyStrange said...
    Transposing Yohan’s broad generalizations from the man/woman binary to the white/black binary reveals just how ridden with logical fallacies and bigotry his thinking really is. Also, typing it out made realize (painfully) how poor his grasp on basic English grammar is...


    The usual shaming language from a feminist running out of arguments... playing the race card...

    How many languages can you speak?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Wait, wait, Yohan... you mean to tell me you felt a tiny frisson of shame just now? Because that would be amazing. It would show that there's a tiny bit of hope for you!

    I love it when people accuse me of "playing the race card." Then I can accuse them of playing the "playing the race card" card.

    ReplyDelete
  69. @SallyStrange

    You did not yet answer my question, how many languages can you speak?

    It seems you have reading problems.
    I wonder if English is your native language.

    To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA.

    In your strange fantasy, the whites are the boys (any race), the blacks are the girls (any race), and the Asians are the ladyboys (any race) or what?

    I don't know, what's your point, but anyway, feminists (white, black, men, women) are funny people.

    ReplyDelete
  70. "Not every man is into nightlife, alcohol, drugs, thug-life... Sorry."

    Um, what are you talking about? What I pointed out is that you seem to want to be able to judge women--very harshly, I should add--and not be judged yourself, which, sorry, ain't gonna happen, buddy. How you go from that to thinking I'm into "thug-life" (yeah, you got me, I married a museum curator who collects comic books for the drug-fueled party lifestyle) baffles me.

    I'm not being sarcastic. I'm confused by your response. Either you have severe reading comprehension problems and honestly don't understand what people are saying to you, or you're deliberately playing dumb. Which is it?

    ReplyDelete
  71. rachel-swirsky said... But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames?

    That's not MRA-theory, but our daily observation. It's the reality. I gave you links about women running even after those bad boys who are already behind bars.

    Kave said...
    So Yohan
    What would be worse, being a woman in love with a cold blooded killer or being a cold blooded killer?


    That's not the point. The point is that this woman has a choice - she made a decision and she is responsible for her good or bad decision.

    Don't blame the MRAs, don't blame the thugs.

    Blame those women who made bad choices.
    We are all equals, isn't it?

    Your bad decision is not my problem.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation..

    shaenon said...
    Um, what are you talking about? What I pointed out is that you seem to want to be able to judge women...


    Have you ever seen a laundry list written by a female about all and everything what a man has to be for her?

    But for feminists, a laundry list from the female to the man is perfectly OK, and a laundry list from the man to the female - even a very short one - is whining about how it's too hard to talk to a woman?

    ReplyDelete
  73. The cold blooded killer did not have choices? I asked you want was worse.

    You seriously have a reading comprehension problem.

    ReplyDelete
  74. From your posts I've gotten that you are happily married with a good family life.

    And that you were teased in school and the girls didn't like you.

    MAYBE it might be time to focus on the now and get over what happened in junior high?

    ReplyDelete
  75. Kave said...
    The cold blooded killer did not have choices?


    MRAs do not support criminals regardless if they are men or women. That's not our responsibility if such a person is spending a good part of his/her life in jail. We do not consider such people as 'victims'.

    However we demand same punishment for same crime regardless to gender. Feminists do not like that.

    By the feminist narrow mindset, ALL women MUST be considered as 'victims'.

    What will you say, if the 'cold blooded killer' is a woman, who is claiming 'abuse' and was killing her husband with some bullets while he was sleeping?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Yohan

    Again you did not understand the question.

    Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them.

    Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that.

    As for mra's not supporting cold blooded killers I'd say they are of a mixed mindset . Marc Lepine day?

    ReplyDelete
  77. Kave said...
    From your posts I've gotten that you are happily married with a good family life.
    And that you were teased in school and the girls didn't like you.
    MAYBE it might be time to focus on the now and get over what happened in junior high?


    Good family life, yes, but only after becoming an expat, moving abroad and looking for a foreign wife. - This already makes me an eternal loser in the eyes of feminism.

    What you mention is only a tiny part out of my experiences how I was treated by Western women in the past.

    I see no reason, why I should not share my experiences with other MRAs over the internet.
    We need a strong Men's Rights Movement to teach other men and to help them to avoid serious mistakes in their future.

    Why should I be silent? Because feminists are telling me it's not politically correct to talk about such issues?

    Women have their advocacy groups and many of them are using public funds, gays have them, too, even animals have them (PETA) - and why should straight men not operate their own advocacy groups?

    FYI, we finance our advocacy groups out of our own wallet.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Yohan,

    Your theory advances that beta males can't also be pussy magnets. My theory advances that this is not true; however, my theory does not suggest that bad boys can't also be pussy magnets. Therefore, I don't need to accommodate your anecdotes; my theory already does. Some ladies want to fuck men who are behind bars.

    You, however, have advanced the theory that beta males are not popular with the ladies. How do you accommodate those that are?

    If you want to say they're statistical outliers, that's fine, but then we need to move out of the realm of anecdote. If anecdotes suffice--and five articles about ladies who want to fuck dudes behind bars is a collection of anecdotes, not a research project--then you must be able to accommodate contrary anecdotes.

    ReplyDelete
  79. As for mra's not supporting cold blooded killers I'd say they are of a mixed mindset . Marc Lepine day?

    We do not, just the opposite, ask David, who is lurking with a fake-ID in our forums.

    Our advice is to pack your things and to move away as quick as possible to avoid troubles as a man if you face family problems.

    What about female killers?

    Do you not feel sorry for them?

    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1585801.php/Police-hunt-motive-after-German-woman-s-killing-spree-Roundup

    Many females are rather supportive not only to criminal women, but also to criminal men as well, otherwise they would not approach them for a personal relationship while they are serving their sentence in a prison cell.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Okay, RS? Could you please not use the term 'beta' to describe generally decent guys, or ones who are not high up in a power hierarchy?

    It's really off-putting, in part because it buys into MRA language and puts a pseudo-scientific gloss on categorizing people as though they were in a pack structure. Too, the term 'beta' has a lot of negative connotations about submissiveness, which doesn't do anyone any favours.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Yohan

    Again you did not understand the question.

    Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them.

    Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that.


    Yes or no Yohan... stop picking and choosing.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Kave said...
    Yohan
    Again you did not understand the question.

    Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them.

    Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that


    @Kave
    Again you did not understand the question.

    Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded female killer or a MAN that has a crush on them.

    Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that.

    A FEMALE killer is considered to be a victim by feminists, is a MAN that has a crush on them also considered to be a victim by feminists?

    What do you think?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Benjamin: Their framework doesn't even make sense within their framework. Critiques of the fact the framework is crap are fine ( actually, important), but I think it can also be important to attack the framework from its own terms, which are effectively incoherent. I'm a fan of multiple, coexisting strategies. And while I'm pursuing that line of argument, yes, I'm going to use their terminology. It's not like I'm using the phrase "pussy magnet" unironically.

    Does the category beta male exist a reifiable social group? No, or at least I'm not aware of any research suggesting it does. But MRAs have defined what they consider to be a phenomenon and made claims about it. When those claims are backed into logical corners, what will Yohan do?

    My guess--continue to ignore the points at which his logic has been shown to be poor, instead favoring unsubstantiable assertions, e.g. "a FEMALE killer is considered to be a victim by feminists."

    Relatedly, I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about my relationship to terminology, sexual preferences, or the politics of alternate sexualities.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Argh, it would be convenient if the commenting system would let me use my feminist-blogosphere name instead of my sf/f author name. Oh well.

    --Mandolin from Alas

    ReplyDelete
  85. Futrelle, if you're intellectually honest, you would link to the equivalent in the feminist blogosphere.

    There is a very popular feminist blog called "rage against the man-chine" with 2 very popular posts called "why I hate men 1" and "why I hate men 2"...

    It would be intellectually dishonest to say that she (and her followers) represent all of feminism, right?

    I get the sense above that you're using this fruit-cake to label the entire manosphere, and I don't think that's fair.

    ReplyDelete
  86. "But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? If we accept that American women are into hypergamy, then what's up? "

    This wasn't invented by the MRA-s, but by scientific research into human sexuality.

    Studies on numbers of sexual partners and mating success find this hyper-gamy pattern over and over and over again. Its not even debatable or a subtle effect.

    My favorite is a study that showed that women find "70% of men to be very below average". Ignore for a second that this is mathematically impossible... but there's a very strong filter in women to always find the majority of men to be "unworthy". In other words, if 70% of men were donald trumps, and 30% were Brad Pitts... then women would find the donald trumps to be "losers" not worth even giving any of your time.

    @your example of the nice, shy partner who got laid like mad... I find it odd that the only such examples we ever hear is from feminists on blog discussions. We never hear these examples pointed out in real life.

    I think one reason is that if women made this point to you in real life, they'd have to introduce you to the guy whom they claim this amazing feat about.

    The very claim that a shy guy is getting laid like mad is an oxymoron, for the simple reason that by definition, him being shy, he can not initiate anything with women. And women do not tend to initiate with men.

    I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex... etc.

    Oddly, the only such stories we hear about are on feminist blogs, which can't be reproduce in real life.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Yohan:

    In my earlier comment, I was purely presenting a metaphorical example of what is wrong with your debating style. I am not claiming that any such conversation actually took place.

    To keep it grounded in reality, as flights of fancy are clearly not to your taste. What happens when you join a debate is this.

    An MRA makes a hugely disturbing comment betraying not only fanatical loathing of women - but also, very probably, severe and enduring mental health issues.

    David will then post it on this esteemed site.

    You will then seize on some utterly irrelevant aspect of the subject, which has no bearing whatsoever on why it is blood-curdlingly disturbing and misogynistic.

    You will then proceed to argue in an aggrieved self-righteous manner about this utterly irrelevant aspect that nobody else gives a monkey’s aunt about.

    Again, to make this clear. Here is an example from this very thread.

    An MRA says that he dreams of seeing a devastated and suicidally unhappy woman slumped on the pavement in a drunken stupor after her life has been destroyed.

    David presents this on his blog.

    You angrily assume the only reason anyone could find this offensive or disturbing is because they do not believe that women get drunk.

    In conclusion, you seem almost autistically blind to what is a disturbing misogynistic opinion and what is not.

    I dare say you read Thomas Harris’ Red Dragon in a state of complete mystification. ‘Well, this Francis Dolarhyde seems like a good enough chap to me. What on earth’s the matter with him?’

    Before you say ‘why do you think I’ve done this, I’ve never even heard of Thomas Harris’ - I am not claiming you have actually done this. I am simply highlighting my original point.

    My father always told me it was wisest not to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man. I am beginning to see what he meant.

    ReplyDelete
  88. there's a very strong filter in women to always find the majority of men to be "unworthy"

    There's a very strong filter among MRA commenters on this blog to assume that any woman who doesn't want to sleep with you thinks you're 'unworthy', a 'loser', and 'not worth even giving any of [her] time'.

    If a woman doesn't want to sleep with you, it doesn't mean she hates you. It just means she doesn't want to sleep with you. I have plenty of male friends and colleagues who are awesome people, I love pending time with them, and I certainly don't think they're losers - but I don't want to sleep with them, either. This is because I, like most women, am capable of seeing men as human beings even when I don't find them attractive.

    I find it odd that the only such examples we ever hear is from feminists on blog discussions. We never hear these examples pointed out in real life.

    I've seen shy guys get laid a lot in real life, so yeah, it does happen. Neither of the ones I'm thinking of were cripplingly shy, though; they were both quite quiet and introverted, but they were perfectly comfortable talking to women. I can absolutely believe that men who find it very difficult talking to women in a romantic context would not be getting laid much. (Also, I agree with you that it's a shame men in our society are still expected to initiate romantic/sexual contact. Most feminists would agree with you on that one. We've been arguing against it for years. Join the team!)

    But, your 'hypergamy' argument isn't about shyness. It's about women only wanting the 'alpha' males, however you're defining that - the rich, powerful, aggressive, Brad-Pitt-lookalike, ones. It's saying that women won't be interested in relationships with men who aren't rich and powerful, or who aren't loud and aggressive. And it's clearly bullshit, because the world is full of men who don't fit your definition of 'alpha' but have no trouble getting laid and getting into relationships. They're just not spending their time on MRA boards whining about what bitches Western women are.

    ReplyDelete
  89. TheAlek: I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex... etc.

    Oddly, the only such stories we hear about are on feminist blogs, which can't be reproduce in real life.


    @TheAlek

    Excellent comment, I never heard about a single case where a Western woman - she alone - initiated the first contact with a man who was shy and afraid to start a conversation with a female.

    Such a man is usually a target of scorn by feminists, regardless his otherwise honest life-style.

    You cannot expect any help or understandings from a Western feminist if you are a man, who is shy, lonely and never had a chance for any personal contact with a female.

    -----

    Openly said, life is somewhat different here in Far East. It's easier to talk to each other, as most Asian females feel very comfortable in a group.

    If you are a man, and you cannot find any girl who might fit your lifestyle, you don't keep it as a secret, you tell it to everybody at your workplace or to other people you know. People usually listen and will not make fun out of you.

    Women in Asia are more helpful towards men, less scornful and they know many many female friends.

    Friendship, gossip and introduction among girls in school, women at the workplace etc. play a major social role in many parts of Asia.

    It is not unknown that suddenly a group of girls is showing up and almost forcing such a boy to go with them after school, or women at the workplace suddenly invite this silent man to come with them.

    Asian women however are doing such 'introduction games' always in a group.

    I never heard about a woman going her own way,
    not in Western society, not in Asia...

    ReplyDelete
  90. "You did not yet answer my question, how many languages can you speak?

    It seems you have reading problems.
    I wonder if English is your native language.

    To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA. "

    This is not what the phrase means in English. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/285100.html Making analogies to race is not "playing the race card" in either sense of the term, unless it is done is such a way that strongly implies the original speaker must also feel that way about the issue of race. Your condescending attitude and comments about "reading problems" does not suit your lack of skill at understanding English idioms. The question of how many languages the person speaks or which is their first language is irrelevant to the question of the person's racism. It is also unrelated to your misunderstanding of the meaning of this idiom.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Thanks for your response.

    I'd like to point out, reading over my comment I didn't say a thing about your "relationship to terminology, sexual preferences, or the politics of alternate sexualities."

    I talked about my relationship to that terminology, which as I said, I find off-putting. I didn't bring sexuality or sexual preferences into it at all. I can only think you got that from my mentioning 'submissiveness', but by that I meant 'beta' contains connotations of submissive behaviour among pack animals, like belly-displays and ear licking, which make me uncomfortable when the term is applied to humans. I wasn't saying anything about you other than being uncomfortable with a word you used.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Lucyrain said... clearly bullshit, because the world is full of men who don't fit your definition of 'alpha' but have no trouble getting laid and getting into relationships. They're just not spending their time on MRA boards whining about what bitches Western women are.

    My impression is exactly the opposite, the Western world is full with frustrated hateful lonely women spending their time for feminist blogs and are whining about men who reject them.

    About MRAs, who are they? Good question, let me explain.

    We are men who are very much different from each other.

    Some of us are young, some are old, some are from the USA, but others are not, some are poor, others remarkable rich, some are white, but there are also Asians and black men with us, some are native English speakers, others hardly use English in their daily life...

    MRAs, we are an advocacy group for men, we want an organization serving us, our needs. What's wrong with that?

    What we really all have together is the ability to talk to each other, we feel no politically correct shame to speak out what happened to us, how we were treated by malicious women in the past.

    Many of us HAD family and children, often over many years and were badly cheated by their wives and are serving now solely as an ATM.

    Others are still young, but unlucky, they never had any contact with a female friend and they have no idea why.

    About myself and some other friends I know from Europe, we are expats with foreign wives and children. This does not mean that our wives are mail-order-brides and are treated as doormats.

    I am very angry with all these feminists who are talking about MRAs like about members of a criminal organization.

    ReplyDelete
  93. citizenlemonade said...
    Yohan:
    .....
    MRA makes a hugely disturbing comment

    David will then post it on this esteemed site.

    You will then seize on some utterly irrelevant aspect of the subject...


    Hugely disturbing comment for you, but for sure not for everybody.

    Maybe David and some feminists with him consider women sitting in their own piss fully drunk in an elevator as a part of their daily life, so-called gender-equality, I don't know.

    I think, it would be good for feminists to tell such women to exercise self-discipline and to refrain to drink so much.

    With no drunken women around, MRAs could not write 'hugely disturbing comments' about them.

    The funny and sad thing is, drunken women sitting in their own piss do not disturb feminists at all, what disturbs them so much are comments from MRAs.


    In conclusion, you seem almost autistically blind to what is a disturbing misogynistic opinion and what is not.


    There are plenty of organizations, which are protecting so-called female victims against misogyny.

    As MRA I care about men/boys.

    Misandrists.feminists from USA/UK, language English are most difficult for any meaningful discussion. David is an excellent example with his MRA-hater blog.

    Feminists in Continental Europe show up with significant less hateful rhetoric, discussion is often surprisingly easy.

    The reason for that might be different laws with more consideration for men and boys, another reason might be that MRAs and feminists in Cntinental Europe do not use English for communication.

    ReplyDelete
  94. DarkSideCat said...
    Yohan: To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA.

    This is not what the phrase means in English. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/285100.html


    What nonsense talk is this?
    Your comment is a follow-up of SallyStrange.

    As John Lennon said, Woman is the Nigger of the World. And I promise that will be the last time I use the n-word in this forum. Sorry if it was jarring. I do think “race traitor” is a fair analogy to the “mangina” term.


    (from your link: "Why was playing the race card necessary in order for O. J. Simpson to go free? Because it was the only way for the defense to deal with the massive physical evidence against him.")

    If you present

    men = white
    women = black

    What else could this mean but
    women = victim
    men = asshole

    And you are telling me this is not playing the race card as your final argument? - Yeah, nothing else is left over anymore, nice try...

    mangina = race-traitor

    Works for you, but not for me - luckily I am not living in the States.

    mangina = race-traitor

    Hahahaha LOL....

    ReplyDelete
  95. Yohan-you are still annoyed over something that happened decades ago. You found a solution to your problem but instead of moving on with your life, you must spend hours a day stewing in a rage over some females not being interested in you decades ago.

    And your point about having a group to do some positive actions would be great-if they were doing anything more then sitting around stewing in their hatred and rage.

    Cue complete lack of understanding of my or anyone else's comment.

    ReplyDelete
  96. TheAlek, I don't put Rage Against the Man-chine in my "good stuff" list because I don't think it's good stuff. I think it's bad stuff, and so do most feminists online. I don't think it's linked to by a single blog I have in my good stuff list.

    By contrast, the MRA/MGTOW sites I link to are pretty much all the big MRA/MGTOW sites there are out there, and a few smaller ones. They link to one another. There is no other group of MRA/MGTOW sites out there that are untainted by this crazy misogyny. If you know of one, by all means let me know. I have asked MRA/MGTOW types again and again to name such sites, and they can't, or won't, or the sites they mention aren't free of misogyny. So far the least misogynistic forum I've found is Reddit's Men's Rights subreddit, but there's plenty of misogyny there; it just gets challenged more often than at other sites. Glenn SAcks and PElle Billing are more moderate than most, but they aren't actually all that widely linked to by the MRA/MGTOW community online.

    Also:

    I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex... etc.

    Really? I just interviewed myself, and it's happened to me.

    ReplyDelete
  97. (Oh, Pele Billing was suggested by one MRA here, so that's one site that's been recommended to me by an MRA that doesn't seem overrun by misogyny.)

    ReplyDelete
  98. Elizabeth said...
    .....Yohan-you are still annoyed over something that happened decades ago


    I had a very bad time for almost 20 years as child, later as student and as young employee because of some certain females next to me. Not such a short time - about 1/3 of my life so far.

    .....you must spend hours a day stewing in a rage over some females ...

    LOL, no, really no, not hours, only some minutes, I write a few comments during lunch time in office or at my desk at home after work, I am good in typing and have a fast internet-connection.

    Feminists are writing much more than I do. Check out HUGO's blog for example.
    http://hugoschwyzer.net/

    .....And your point about having a group to do some positive actions

    Yes, MRAs understand organization in groups is very important.
    We have groups, we talk about travel, chess, motorcycles, foreign languages etc.

    .....complete lack of understanding of my or anyone else's comment

    NOT ANYONE ELSE, only misandrists/feminists are telling me they cannot understand my English.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Yohan: When I actually see a woman passed out drunk in her own piss in the elevator, maybe I'll tell her to exercise self-control. And to keep an eye on her drink, so that some totally nice non-rapist doesn't slip a drug in it, an occurrence that's been known to happen. As it is, however, I haven't yet encountered such a scene. That's just not part of my "daily life", thank you very much, and no, like most women, I don't sit on my ass eating bonbons. What I have seen quite a few times is MEN passed out from drink, lying in the elevator, at the bottom of the stairs, on the sidewalk, etc., lying in their own piss, or vomit, or both -- although it's not exactly daily life either, just something that I've actually seen on several occasions. Maybe the sight of drunk women in elevators is just "daily life" where YOU live, I don't know.

    Do you tell such men to exercise self-control and refrain from drinking and partying? Oh, right, according to you, men are never, ever, ever responsible for their own behavior. When a frat boy gets stone drunk, crawls up a chimney and falls asleep in his own vomit -- according to you, that's all the fault of women, feminists and manginas who FORCED him to get drunk, or drove him to despair by not sleeping with him/taking away his God-given right to fuck whatever he wants without the object's consent. Do I have it about right? I think so. If a woman drinks herself silly, it's because she lacks self-control. If a man drinks himself silly, it's because society has failed him, and it's all the fault of women who didn't let him put his penis in their vaginas and took away "his" jobs.

    Also, you spent 20 years being a child? Well, that's your problem right there.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Nearly 20 years being 1/3 of your life means that you are nearly sixty years old.

    Something that happened nearly 40 years ago still has you so angry that you must vent about it now.

    Also, you still misunderstood my broader point-the MRA movement does little positive. All it does is sit around and whine about women. That is not positive. There are no proposed laws, no online petitions, no organizing to change things. Just whine all day long.

    Have some cheese.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Amused said...
    If a woman drinks herself silly, it's because she lacks self-control. If a man drinks himself silly, it's because society has failed him


    There is plenty of support for women available for any situation, but almost none for men.

    So because men are alcoholics, you suggest in the sense of equality, women also should become alcoholics? Statistics show that you are right, women are now drinking much more than in the past when they were oppressed.

    ...you spent 20 years being a child?

    Do you need eye-glasses? You should consult an optometrist urgently. You are suffering of severe astigmatism as you see only 1/3 of my comment obviously.
    I said 20 years as child, later as student and as young employee.

    And do you know that fathers have to pay CHILD support to the MOTHER of their children up to 18 years old?

    That's UK definition, but sure similar in the USA.

    England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland each have their own guidance setting out the duties and responsibilities of organisations to keep children safe, but they agree that a child is anyone who has not yet reached their 18th birthday.

    FYI, when I was a child, the age of majority was 21.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Yohan, there are actually quite a few resources for alcoholics of both sexes. Alcoholics Anonymous, rehab facilities, etc etc.

    But why are we even discussing drinking anyway?

    My point in the post was that you didn't seem bothered in the slightest by Big R saying he wanted women "to see how lonely and suicidal they,ll become when they find out all the men have dumped them forever in the feminized world. I want them to live and suffer without men or the attention they receive from us. ..."

    Do YOU also want to see women feeling "lonely and suicidal?" If not, why didn't you say something to Big R about it instead of posting a picture of a miserable drunk woman.

    The fact that you posted that picture rather than challenge him suggests to me that you agree with him.

    Do you? Please answer with a simple yes or no.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Elisabeth: the MRA movement does little positive. All it does is sit around and whine about women.

    If this is true, I wonder why feminists are so worried about MRAs.

    ReplyDelete
  104. @Yohan

    "There is plenty of support for women available for any situation, but almost none for men."

    False.

    So because men are alcoholics, you suggest in the sense of equality, women also should become alcoholics? Statistics show that you are right, women are now drinking much more than in the past when they were oppressed.

    Actually, that would suggest that in the past, when women were oppressed, alcoholism among women was under-reported.

    "Do you need eye-glasses? You should consult an optometrist urgently. You are suffering of severe astigmatism as you see only 1/3 of my comment obviously.
    I said 20 years as child, later as student and as young employee."


    Yohan, as someone with an obviously limited English proficiency, you shouldn't get self-righteous about people supposedly misinterpreting comments that you aren't wording properly in the first place. What your comment means there, is that you spent 20 years as a child, and then later (after those 20 years) became a student, then a young employee. That's what your comment actually means.

    "And do you know that fathers have to pay CHILD support to the MOTHER of their children up to 18 years old?"

    Mothers have to pay child support to the father, too. The law is gender-neutral.

    "FYI, when I was a child, the age of majority was 21."

    FYI, when I was a child, I didn't get the idea that a 20 year-old is expected to act like someone half his age just because he can't get a mortgage yet.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Yohan: If this is true, I wonder why feminists are so worried about MRAs.

    Myself: Because getting shot by undiagnosed mental patients has a tendency to ruin one's day. Really, this isn't rocket science.

    ReplyDelete
  106. David: Do YOU also want to see women feeling "lonely and suicidal?" If not, why didn't you say something to Big R about it instead of posting a picture of a miserable drunk woman.

    First of all, most people who are lonely and suicidal are men, and not women.
    Do feminists care about them? Surely not.

    Second, if you do not want to see pictures of drunken women in our forum, do not sign in with your fake-ID.

    Anyway, such pictures - drunken women in the garbage - are everywhere on the internet, 1000s of them... these are not fake-pictures, but this is the reality.

    Why should the truth about women and alcohol not be published? It's all about female empowerment.

    Third, if you really want to do something for these women, go ahead and tell them to reduce their alcohol consumation, instead of complaining about remarks from MRAs.

    MRAs will not and cannot discuss anything about drunken women if there are no drunken women around, who are sleeping in their own piss in an elevator or are vomitting next to a public restroom.

    Finally, I don't care if Western psycho women are feeling they are lonely or suicidal while drinking plenty of alcohol for free - paid by boys in bars and discos until they are sitting in their own piss somewhere.

    It's up to them to look for a relationship with a serious man and not for a quick hook-up with some unknown thug.

    That's truly not my concern. I am not responsible for the well-being of these women.

    Drunken women, misguided by feminism, have to care after themselves, or maybe David will show up and carry them to their homes.

    ReplyDelete
  107. citizenlemonade: Myself: Because getting shot by undiagnosed mental patients has a tendency to ruin one's day.

    Interesting that you are only worried about male killers and not about female killers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_L%C3%B6rrach_hospital_shooting

    ReplyDelete
  108. Amused: Actually, that would suggest that in the past, when women were oppressed, alcoholism among women was under-reported.

    Oh yes, the patriarchy, and all and everything regarding women was and is under-reported.

    It's always the fault of the men, when women are getting drunk.

    And gender-neutral child-support is usually from the father to the mother...and up to 18 years old at least, regardless if the father can see the children or not.

    And now you should go to an optometrist, for sure eye-glasses will help you to read how gender-neutral laws are executed in reality.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Yohan, could you just post a simple yes or no to the question of whether or not you want to see women feeling "lonely and suicidal?"

    Not "Western psycho women ... feeling they are lonely or suicidal while drinking plenty of alcohol for free - paid by boys in bars and discos."

    Women in general.

    I'll start out by answering a similar question with a simple yes or no answer. Do I want to see men lonely and suicidal? No.

    See, it's easy. So, your turn: Yes or no, do you want to see women lonely and suicidal?

    After you answer yes or no, you can add whatever you want to your answer. But I'm not going to discuss anything further with you until you provide that simple answer.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Ooh, demanding aren't we? I speak 2.5 languages. I say 2.5 because my Hindi is pretty damn rusty and wasn't that good to begin with. My French, however, is near fluent. Why? Are you trying to say that English isn't YOUR native language? That theory would hold a lot more explanatory power than the theory that I am speaking a second or third language right now, since it is you who has communication problems with multiple posters here, not me.

    "Playing the race card" is a meaningless phrase. It just means, "You brought up race." Well duh. Yes I did. Usually the person accusing others of "playing the race card" is just saying "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT RACE SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP! LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Yep, kind of like you.

    The point of the transposition from male/female to white/black was to demonstrate how absolutely ludicrous and offensive your generalizations are. If someone talked about black people the way you talked about women, there'd be no question that you'd be called a racist. Yet you do the same thing to women--build up these offensive and inaccurate generalizations--and then deny charges of misogyny.

    All black people are not one way and all white people are not this other way. All men are not one way and all women are not this other way.

    You keep harping on the idea that "WOMEN" as in ALL women are this particular way. The basic thesis of feminism is that "We're all individuals," as Brian the Messiah would say. There are more than 3 billion women alive in the world today. No one generalization is going to apply to all of them. You can't even say, "They all have uteri," because some women are born without uteri, some have them surgically removed for whatever reason, and some women become women by choice after being born as men. Some women are butch and some women are femme. Some women are smart and some are stupid. Etc., etc. Yet you insist on the validity of your silly little theories that are based on nothing more than your personal experiences and bitter feelings. You love the word "ALWAYS." You say, "Feminists ALWAYS hate men." "Women ALWAYS love shopping." It's simplistic thinking and it's inherently flawed.

    The one "always" that will always apply is that there are always exceptions. You search and grope for a generalization, an "always" that will help you interact with women well enough to get what you want, but there is no such thing. People are individuals, period. Thinking that generalizations about men or women are helpful in understanding individual men or women is like thinking that knowing the average width of the Amazon River is helpful information when you're looking for a way to cross it. You're like a child who still thinks people are only ever all good or all evil. It's wishful thinking on your part.

    And you should answer the questions people are putting to you. I answered yours. It's your turn.

    ReplyDelete
  111. @ SallyStrange

    I know the PC offer is to do someone's taxes for them (rather than having their babies), but I'm shit at math. Instead, I would be totally willing to clean out your closet, garage or other storage unit.

    ReplyDelete
  112. David Futrelle said...

    Yohan, could you just post a simple yes or no to the question of whether or not you want to see women feeling "lonely and suicidal?"

    Not "Western psycho women ... feeling they are lonely or suicidal while drinking plenty of alcohol for free - paid by boys in bars and discos."
    Women in general.
    .....
    See, it's easy. So, your turn: Yes or no, do you want to see women lonely and suicidal?


    David, I am definitively under no obligation to answer your highly suggestive and provocative questions about 'women in general' which - what a surprise - include all Western psycho-power-girls who are already lonely and suicidal.

    If you like to collect answers to your stupid catch-22 questions, you are invited to post them in our forum using the section 'Opposing Views' or 'Trolleville'. You know where to find us. You have a fake-ID for signing in.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Yohan

    MAYBE the reason why no one liked you first the first 1/3 of your life has less to do with feminism and more to do with the fact that you lack the social skills to even answer a direct question.

    People like you tend to benefit from changing countries. People you meet can just write off your odd behavior as a cultural difference.

    ReplyDelete
  114. It is a simple and easy question that your answer would be "yes" to based on your refusal to answer.

    You do want women to be miserable. And all because nearly 40 years ago you had women rejecting you or expecting you to support them as was the social norm then. Dude, LET IT GO.

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  115. It's "provocative and suggestive" to ask whether Yohan has an active desire to see women, in general, become lonely and suicidal.

    That right there tells you all you need to know.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Yohan

    Have you looked into what really might be wrong with you on a diagnostic level?

    We can presume from what you have said that in your youth and young adult life you have been belittled by both girls and boys your age. Life became better for you when you became an expat. You have a hard time seeing any grey area, for you the world is black or white.

    You exibit as a classic Aspergers, have you looked into this? There is a lot of help for people like you if you give it a chance.

    ReplyDelete
  117. "There is plenty of support for women available for any situation, but almost none for men."---Yohan

    "False."---Amused

    And where is your counter-proof? Citations needed.

    ReplyDelete
  118. "Plenty more out there for those who are hurting and male."---Elizabeth

    They actually do exist, however, they are not typically visible enough, and society does not encourage men to seek them out as they should. I don't typically see feminists giving the same weight with these issues for men as they do women, but that's not surprising.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Duh, women caring about other women are going to be telling those women about these support groups.

    Contact your buddies in the MRA movement to post those on their websites-part of the lack of knowledge solved.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Triplantary:, Feminists such as Obama and Clinton don't "dismantle" traditional gender roles. And They send more men into war in Afghanistan. What a pack of lies. And for god's sake, STOP equating women's status with that of minorities. Blacks, Natives, Asians and Mexicans have never had over 50 percent of the population. They have never had a majority of the vote. Blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites. Men have a lower expectancy than women. More on that later!
    Triplanetary, Do you think that the millions of homeless men hold the "privileged" place in society? There are Many More homeless men than rich men. And to not believe this, makes one a misogynist? You hateful BIGOT. Go tell that Native American man who lost his land, and was put on a reservation, to give up his "male privileged" position to whites. Go shove it.

    ReplyDelete

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