Monday, January 17, 2011

The ugly diva crisis ... solved!

She's out of your league, pal!
You may recall a little ditty from days gone by called "If you wanna be happy." The song, the one hit of one-hit-wonder Jimmy Soul, was a song with a message for men in love. That message? Well, if my mere mentioning of the song hasn't already gotten it stuck in your head, let me remind you of its basic thesis:

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

Why is this? Well, put simply, pretty women are entitled bitches who will ruin your life and break your heart, while ugly women will be so grateful for your attention that they'll treat you well and prepare meals in a timely fashion:

A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he married her and then she starts
To do the things that will break his heart

But if you make an ugly woman your wife
A-you'll be happy for the rest of your life
An ug-a-ly woman cooks meals on time
And she'll always give you peace of mind

By "piece of mind," I believe Mr. Soul is referring to "blowjobs."

But, alas, this simple formula for male happiness has been rendered ineffective. And it's all the fault of evil manginas. A fellow called Lincoln, posting on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum, reports that these dastardly woman-worshipping half-men have upset the old order by actively pursuing ugly women and making them think they're all that. The horror! All this mangina attention has given

even the most ugliest man faced mountain beasts [an] overinflated sense of their own self-importance, and the net result is the most repulsive, vile, and ill-tempered skanks you could ever meet. Even now I can't understand it, I can't even look at these women much less want to bang them, but there it is. It's already a given that the really attractive ones will of course behave the same way, but if even the ugliest ones behave like prima donnas, who's left?

It seems an unsolvable dilemma. But Lincoln believes he's found a way out: amputees.

The ideal is to find a beautiful woman that no mangina wants. it's possible, but they usually have some kind of trait that puts men off for sometimes the fucking stupidest reason. One example was this one armed woman I knew of once. She had lost her arm in a car accident, and she was the sweetest, most kindest girl you could have met, but for some reason guys weren't lining up the door for her. Stupid. If I ran across her again I wouldn't hesitate to ask her out.

Love will always find a way.

If you now need to get "If you wanna be happy" out of your head, this ought to do it:



--

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*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

126 comments:

  1. More proof that women are not people to these fucking ugly hearted developmentally deviant pricks. I like your tag, men who should not ever be with men ever.

    They get what they deserve. Nothing. They are man haters, they refuse to even attempt to be men.

    Now who is the first whiny mra that is going to play victim and attempt to claim I am personally insulting them, ignoring the context here that these men harshly reject women against dehumanizing standards because they refuse to join or are incapable of joining the real human race.

    So they get to judge ugly and then claim the person has no rights based a non-sensical and insulting yard stick, and apply their theories to a whole damned sex. Then they have the nerve to whine about being "shamed"? Shamed is only a relevant concept if you are RIGHT about something that needs to CHANGE, and does not apply as a valid complaint for men who are attempting to shame and insult and entire sex to get their little toddler gratifications and perceived entitlements met.

    Any kind of man can get a woman. They need to tap into the intangible energies they are lacking, but that takes growth.

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  2. Whose the hotty in the B/W photo?

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  3. Wait, so men who want hot women are pigs, and men who want women with heart and are willing to look past her appearance are....pigs?

    Does anything men do make you happy?

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  4. @ScareCrow

    That's me without make-up.

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  5. Those lucky lady amputees. Imagine how grateful they'll be for such kind, sincere attentions. He'll want to pretty up the sentiment a bit for their first date to make it sound less like he thinks he deserves a cookie for shopping on the refurbished shelf of love, just in case the woman's self-respect wasn't amputated with whatever other charms she might have lost.

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  6. No, Bisquit Queen, men who think the only value a woman has is her appearance are not seeing women as whole people. This is consistent. Men who only go after hot women and men who believe ugly women should be grateful to have them both are exhibiting this behavior.

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  7. Aphex twin makes for excellent brain bleach, thanks.

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  8. BQ: Once again you have completely missed the point.

    I hate to have to spell out what I think should be crystal clear to anyone who reads the post, but here goes: Lincoln seems to have trouble with women who have what he considers excessive self-esteem, and he's complaining that now even ugly women (who shouldn't have any and should be easy to get into bed) have self-esteeem too. So he's looking for women who still don't have any. And he thinks he's found a solution.

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  9. Just to make extra crystal clear: when I refer to "ugly women (who shouldn't have any and should be easy to get into bed)" I mean "ugly women (who IN HIS MIND shouldn't have any and should be easy to get into bed)"

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  10. "Now who is the first whiny mra that is going to play victim and attempt to claim I am personally insulting them,"

    You aren't addressing MRA's in general, so there won't be any need to play victim. If your opening hate filled line started off by identifying all MRA's as being these "fucking ugly hearted developmentally deviant pricks", there would be an issue, but you didn't.

    However, if you want to correct yourself and claim that all MRA's feel this way, then I'll bite.

    As to the actual subject matter, If the link to "Lincoln, posting on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum" actually worked, I might have something to say, but it doesn't. So again, it seems to me you are attributing a single individual's comment as representative of the entire men's movement. Feminists have some pretty hateful and outspoken advocates too, who are actually getting published, broadcast and employed in positions of authority, unlike these handful of men you keep quoting.

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  11. Kratch,

    I know, NAMRA's are like that. (Funny that a standard mra line is to say the women keep telling them not all women are like that, but oh well..)

    But David keeps posting posts made by different mra's so there seems to be a great deal of them doesn't there?

    Perhaps you'd like to share just one post from the Spearhead that shows an mra standing up to say that is the wrong way to think. I did this a few years back and was promptly called a mangina by everyone on the board.

    So yes, maybe NAMRA's are like that. However until all those non-womanhating men who do not think of a woman as simply a vagina stand up and say so I'm going to continue to keep the same conclusion of the mra that I came to within a week of signing up on a board. That is: Most mra's are very much like that.

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  12. Kratch, the link works. You need to be registered there to see it, though. I quoted most of the comment.

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  13. I meant "are NOT like that", I guess my fingers typed what the evidence suggests.

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  14. D, You claim that MRA's not standing up against other MRA's means they feel the same way... Again I will point to the man-hating feminists being published or broadcast fairly regularly without condemnation. Should I then assume you are equally man-hating based solely on the fact I have not personally seen you speak out against such hateful women (as Andrea Dworkin)? Or perhaps, is it better to assume that more often then not, if someone disagrees with something they deem trivial and/or ridiculous, they simply avoid it?

    Do you oppose Booboo when she spews her regular man-hate in virtually every post I've seen of her's so far (admittedly, I haven't read more then a dozen threads, but...)? Should I assume you agree with her hatred given the absence of your opposition to her? or do you simply dismiss her as one of the crazies swimming in the feminist pool, and try to distance yourself? I suspect this last scenario is by far the most common for people in general. Or are only MRA's to be held to task for this?

    David, that would have been a relevant point to have added (perhaps a short bracket beside the link...). Just a future suggestion.

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  15. Correction "You claim that MRA's not" should read "You imply that MRA's not"

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  16. Perhaps you'd like to share just one post from the Spearhead that shows an mra standing up to say that is the wrong way to think. I did this a few years back and was promptly called a mangina by everyone on the board.
    Oh, look, here's one!!
    And can you believe it, Kave gets the same warm reception that YOU did!!

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  17. "No, Bisquit Queen, men who think the only value a woman has is her appearance are not seeing women as whole people."---Sandy

    Welcome to what it feels like to be a man in a feminist and white knight culture. We aren't viewed as holistic people, and you are clearly one to judge pretty quickly from your posts.

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  18. Interesting. I did not miss the point at all, I just disagreed with your version of what you think is the truth. I saw all of this in a completely different light. Pretty women, just like really good looking men, often have a superiority complex and feel entitled (think the head cheerleader and footballer in high school). They can get away with an ugly personality (often very bullying behavior)because the outside is beautiful. Less attractive people need to have other traits than physical appearance to attract a partner, so will often be nicer and more appreciative of what they have. This is not a bad thing. Do you want the super hot guy who thinks he is God's gift to women, or the ok looking guy who will appreciate you? This is not limited to men in any way shape of form. This is human nature.

    Obviously not all hot people have bad personalities, and not all ugly people are nice, but we all know that the better looking people have less motivation to be nice. The uglier on the outside people are, the more effort they have to make to be nice to be seen as worthy of attention. Again, not just women, but all people.

    Peace of mind may really just mean peace of mind. Just because your mind is in the gutter does not mean this song writer's is.

    The poster's comment about women which came after the song is a man who (very badly worded) his concern that all women now that he meets, pretty and ugly alike, show the same traits the high school cheerleaders showed-stuck up and entitled. Who can he find who is a decent person if all the women feel they are too good for him. So he says he is willing to look past looks completely and ask out women who have disabilities. Good for him. He even describes one as "sweetest most kindest"....oooh, sounds like an evil, misogynistic man....get out the torches and pitchforks!"

    I think the song is sweet, and I see this whole thread as looking through the world in shit colored glasses. I feel sorry for you that you honestly seem to think half the population is defective. I think this should be seen as a canary in the coal mine-if men are seeing women as having overinflated egos (as opposed to healthy self-esteem) then more men may choose to opt out of marriage all together. Women have every right to have as much ego as they want, but the men have every right to not pursue them.

    Your premise, based on what you criticize, seems to be that no matter how ugly some women choose to act, men must pursue them. There is never any good reason to not be interested in a woman.

    That makes no sense. Would you have an issue if women started going after ugly men because all the hot ones were players? Oh wait, they are already doing that.

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/mating/10030/

    Do you have a problem with this?

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  19. " . . .and he's complaining that now even ugly women (who shouldn't have any and should be easy to get into bed) . . ." ---David

    Would you give them a pass?

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  20. To clarify, one can turn a man down and not be stuck up. I have done it myself. It is painfully obvious when a person, male or female, looks at you with disgust when you ask them out. It takes so little effort to smile sincerely and say "I am sorry, I am not available, but thank you so much for asking." Turning someone down does not have to be the same thing as being a bitch or a jerk. Everyone has the right to say no. You should not feel you have the right to be a jerk about it.

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  21. "Lincoln seems to have trouble with women who have what he considers excessive self-esteem . . ."---David

    I would gather he probably has a problem with someone with an overbloated sense of self and mistreats him. A lot of people would have a problem with that.

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  22. BQ, a couple of points:

    "I feel sorry for you that you honestly seem to think half the population is defective."

    And where do you get that from? I'm not criticizing all men. I'm criticizing the small minority of men who are raging misogynists. Most men, when they encounter the sorts of guys I write about on this blog, see them for the bitter bastards they are.

    Meanwhile, the guy I'm talking about in this post is posting on the forum attached to NiceGuy's American Women Suck page. That is, it's on a site devoted to the notion that HALF THE POPULATION in the US is, to use your term, "defective."

    In other words, your criticism really applies to the guy you're jumping through hoops to defend, not to me.

    As for the rest, as I explained before, this post isn't really about "ugliness" (which after all is in the eyes of the beholder) but about a guy who thinks that the **vast majority of women** (pretty or "ugly") are stuck up bitches, and who's desperately looking for someone more pliable.

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  23. Why would a disabled person automatically be considered unattractive? You could be blind and smoking hot, or wheelchair-bound and ruggedly handsome. You can be deaf and attractive. There is even a catwalk model (you know, the big leagues of modeling) with 2 artificial legs. Sure, she was there initially for shock value, but everyone loved it and she made tons of money.

    So no, I am not going to give this guy a cookie for being willing to consider dating a disabled person. It only sounds noble if you start with the idea that disabled people are somehow broken and in need of pity dates. Which, when disabled people complain about how hard it is to find a decent partner, I'm sure they're not wishing for more people with Lincoln's attitude. What if someone is disabled and unattractive? Are they just shit out of luck? That's two strikes by Lincoln's count.

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  24. And what if the disabled woman insists that her thoughts, feeling and opinions have value? What if she has the temerity to disagree with the original poster, or has the utter gall to say, "Sorry, honey, not tonight; I'm just not in the mood."

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  25. Why would you even want to fuck someone you found unattractive in the first place? I can't be the only person who does not want to screw those that physically repulse me. I think David really hits it on the head with 'eye of the beholder'. See, Lincoln does not actually appear to find the women he calls ugly to be truly unattractive. He finds them attractive and wants to have sex with them. If he really "can't even look at these women much less want to bang them" why does he give a shit that they have no interest in him/think they are too good to fuck him? Seriously, I don't care if the people I have zero interest in fucking do not want to fuck me. The issue then is social standards of beauty. He expects women who do not meet a certain social ideal to see themselves as ugly and therefore lack self esteem. His bullshit about women with disabilities fits right with the pattern. He wants to have sex with them, but he expects them to be damned grateful because he sees them as socially defective.

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  26. I'm not worried for the potential disabled women who might date this jerk. He will cruise nightclubs looking for missing hands, they will say no to him, then all disabled women will have the same label he gives the attractive and ugly women before her.

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  27. I'm reminded of a band-mate of mine many years ago. He was the lead singer and at the time we were playing top 40 clubs.

    After the gig was finished he would go from table to table quite literally asking women to go home with him. He would on any given night go through three quarters of the women in the nightclub before he hit on one that would say o.k, but I'd say that at least half the time he would find someone to fuck that night.

    The overwhelming majority that said no he had a standard line. “You would be just a pity fuck anyways”.

    This antidote is not in a vacuum. Men and boys alike understand that if they fish long enough they will catch one. Also the alpha bad boy thing does not sway the overwhelming majority of women. Also he felt the need to insult them if they said no.

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  28. "No, Bisquit Queen, men who think the only value a woman has is her appearance are not seeing women as whole people"

    It's strange how feminists never whine about women only wanting wealthy men who can offer them a better lifestyle. This example clearly shows that these women don't see men as people.

    Oh I am forgetting, when it comes to feminism, the problems heterosexual men face are not important

    Here, I will say it for you. “what about the menz”

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  29. And before a femitwit comes in and starts saying crap like "what are you doing about it?". Why is it that feminists support white privilege for blacks, gay rights etc. Why feel the need to do something about that but when it's the heterosexual white male, no feminist is willing to protest against oppression/discrimination in that factor?

    Is it because feminism discriminates against heterosexual white men while claiming they are against discrimination?

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  30. nicko81m

    You are talking about 000.2 of the female population regarding women who could be gold diggers.


    What is this white privilege that feminists support for blacks and gay rights?

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  31. Man how many pussy passes for sheer assholery is David gonna give to booboonation?

    Random Brother.

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  32. Damn it, Lincoln! It's either "most ugly" or "ugliest;" it's either "most kind" or "kindest!" Gesus! It's really not that difficult! Do not put "most" and a word ending in "est" together! Just don't do it!

    Oh. And "O noes! How dare women you don't find fuckable be proud and think themselves beautiful and worthy!" Get over it. Women deserve to deny any man or woman they want just like any man can deny any man or woman he wants.

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  33. "You are talking about 000.2 of the female population regarding women who could be gold diggers."

    Have you got substance to back this statistic up?

    David expects it when the claim is against women

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  34. Why is it okay for feminism to claim that females are oppressed by objectification...meaning that more than some men do it and see women solely as sex objects and not people. But when the other side of the story comes up, such as not seeing men as people, a feminist can say, "oh wait, only 000.2 of the female population do this" ?

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  35. When I was a kid guys would tell me to never "gas a bitches head up." Meaning don't swoon over her or tell her how great she is, because her response would be to think "Well then I'm too good for you." I've found this to be often true. The guy who constantly kisses his girl's ass is never respected for long.
    It's why women are so found of using phrases like he's not on my level and the like.

    What this guy is saying is that more and more women have had their heads gassed up despite not having any of the traditional standards of beauty, talent or ability.

    You have a culture where somehow Lady Gaga and Queen Latifah, objectively hideous looking women, are somehow called beauties and are featured in magazines and on television.

    Hell, in this socieity, every woman is told she is beautiful no matter how ugly she is. And quite frankly most feminists are extremely fucking ugly. It's almost a requirement to be a feminst to look like the ass end of a donkey.

    And I know some feminut is going to say, what about how men look. Men are fat, men go bald, blah, blah, blah. Men don't tell Steve Buscemi that he is beautiful just the way he is, he's told "Hey you bug eyed fucker, you'd better be talented." Men don't demand that you take Fabio (or whoever)off the cover of some chick porn romance book because "all men are beautifulz" or some other feminst pro woman clap trap and replace him with some overweight construction worker.

    Random Brother

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  36. richard: "Man how many pussy passes for sheer assholery is David gonna give to booboonation?"

    So far, not anywhere near as many as I've given you.

    Nick: most feminists I know think that real, honest-to-goodness gold-digging women are awful, shallow human beings. I have no idea what percentage of the population fits this particular stereotype. If you run into them all the time, maybe you should think about going to different places. They're not that difficult to avoid.

    Also, I'm as baffled by your line about "white privilege" as D is.

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  37. Hell, in this society, every woman is told she is beautiful no matter how ugly she is.

    This is true, if a man dares to criticise a woman, he is an asshole or misogynist. Yet it's perfectly okay to criticise a man for any reason of not being good enough for women.

    It's funny how the word "loser" is mostly or only directed at men

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  38. David David David

    "If you run into them all the time, maybe you should think about going to different places. They're not that difficult to avoid."

    Can I say the same about men who oppress women or men who don't see women as people one way or the other?

    If feminists feel the need to complain about this (which means it’s a big problem, that’s why they are complaining… If it wasn't, they would believe only a small amount of men do) it means they should go to different places right? Why don't feminists get this lecture? Why do men get blamed for bad women but women don’t get blamed for bad men?

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  39. @ David

    In other words she's a woman, and we don't punish women for breaking no rules around here!

    So Davey, does you feminist owner keep your balls in her purse or has she thrown them away? Not like you're using them either way.

    Random Brother

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  40. Lady Gaga is pretty without her overdoing the weird stuff and Queen Latifah is not attractive to you but that does not mean she is some how "objectively hideous looking."

    Each person has their own standard of what is beautiful or attractive.

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  41. richard, as you know, I rarely delete comments, even obnoxious or insulting ones. And in fact you have posted comments far more obnoxious than anything booboo has posted. Like, for example, the last couple of comments you've posted here.

    You've actually sort of outdone yourself with the latest one, complaining that I don't punish women for breaking rules while in the very next sentence breaking my rule about gratuitously nasty personal attacks.

    But it's such an incredibly dumb and unoriginal attack I'll just let it stand.

    nick: "Why do men get blamed for bad women but women don’t get blamed for bad men?"

    You realize that on MRA/MGTOW sites it is ALWAYS the other way around. A woman gets attacked or killed by a thug, and, well, she had it coming because she went for a thug. A man is treated badly by a woman, and it's all about the woman's evil, not the fact that he chose to be with her.

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  42. Elizabeth, at this point I think richard is just hurling random shit in an attempt to provoke people.

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  43. @David Futrelle

    The video in this post should be taken out because it detracts from your post. The lyrics for "Come to Daddy" talk about taking souls.

    Feminism hates the patriarchy. Religion is seen by feminists as a construct of the patriarchy. The idea of a soul was developed by the patriarchy. So feminist are against the idea of their being such an idea of a soul. So they have no soul that can be taken.

    The lyrics would only enhance if women were taking souls.

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  44. Well I find it a pretty lame suggestion that I should not express what assholes these guys are in the post.

    WHY NOT? These people are continually judging and trying to control an entire gender to dehumanizing standards. Read my lips, they are assholes. The deserve the disdain that racists get. Then some of them have the nerve to get on here and try to shame and control me.

    It's because I have you pegged, that's why. No good men do anything but laugh a this post and nod at my frustration, but you know what?

    There is a reason people like that are having a hard time passing their genes along. For once something seems right with evolution.

    It's sheer assholery not to dance around this nonsense and placate racists? LOL

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  45. "You realize that on MRA/MGTOW sites it is ALWAYS the other way around. A woman gets attacked or killed by a thug, and, well, she had it coming because she went for a thug. A man is treated badly by a woman, and it's all about the woman's evil, not the fact that he chose to be with her."

    Some MRA's may be assholes and/or shock jocks. But to me, this is about politically correct standards

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  47. And what rules did I break? I lament the post and pepper my sentences with HBO language. I didn't address anyone but the subject of the post. Then I make a wild prediction that a whiny MRA is going to come along and throw a manbaby tantrum and try to control me.

    What rules did I break? And what's "obnoxious" I post the way I do here because of the subject matter. Like I said, this stuff should be viewed as deserved ridicule of racism.

    Coming from a group that claims not to understand my posts, it's very interesting.

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  48. booboo, your posts are fine. You're blunt, I'm blunt, richard is blunt, though he's the only one resorting to nasty personal attacks here.

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  49. When you are listening to yet another mainstream media article lamenting the lack of eligable men for high powered women, do you think it is bad advice for women to start looking at men who perhaps make less money than them?

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  50. "It's strange how feminists never whine about women only wanting wealthy men who can offer them a better lifestyle. This example clearly shows that these women don't see men as people."---nicko81m

    You got that right.

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  51. " . . .do you think it is bad advice for women to start looking at men who perhaps make less money than them?" The Biscuit Queen.

    These women (in general) don't date down very much, and feminists---despite the claims otherwise---have no problems with women marrying up and justify those who don't want to marry down.

    How many high profile/high status women are itching to date a garbage collector?

    Crickets chirp.

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  52. "It's strange how feminists never whine about women only wanting wealthy men who can offer them a better lifestyle. This example clearly shows that these women don't see men as people."---nicko81m


    Are you out of your mind? This is one of the first concepts of feminism I was taught by a feminist high school guidance counselor who practically coughed up a lung and fainted when I suggest that my options were so limited I would be better off with a man that could provide me some leisure time. Even when I suggested well, I could write a book or do something worthwhile with that freedom, she still looked at me like I had tripped Steinem as she was walking by. And she was one of those that didn't even wear a bra, I know few feminists with guts like that (unless they have no boobz at all).

    This is a different topic than wishing those you're inappropriately judging should not have self esteem. And if these guys can't get anyone, then they themselves are UGLY. So why are THEIR expectations so high? And do you know what a loser you have to be to not get women? I mean socially a loser. Because women find any stupid thing attractive. Men have a MUCH wider range of looks and behaviors that are acceptable compared to the little box women are shoved in.

    How many times are women supporting jobless losers? A LOT. Men have wider range of everything they can display compared to women. Even Mr. Rogers was married. Fat is more accepted in men . Gender roles bind everyone. But men get to express more of their humanity. The money angle is weak and lame.

    How many high status women want to date males that have nothing going for them but looks, and are not successful in any other way? That's the real question. High status men don't date garbage women either. You people have no point when you try to make this a contest. You can't win.

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  53. And the irony is that women still do not have a culture that backs them on pursuing success they way a man can, and so that's where the whole gold digging thing came from. DUH. You want women to have no personal power or autonomy in society. You want them to HAVE to rely on a man. So then when they travel down that road and wind up wanting security, that's wrong somehow?

    Just stop. You've already lost, you're just excuse makers.

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  55. The thing I find weird is that people (not just MRA's) generally tend to accept the false "ugly/beautiful" dichotomy which is mostly a cultural construct and has very little relationship to who individuals are actually attracted to.

    I'm attracted to almost all women with certain physical characteristics, regardless of whether they look like they could be on TV or not. That's my "type" and most people have one. Men learn when they're young to keep quiet about finding "ugly" girls attractive, but then as we age we generally mellow out and realize that making fun of your friends for having their own ideas about who's attractive is really stupid.

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  56. "Fat is more accepted in men."--booboonation

    Maybe if you actually believe what sitcoms show you and not reality.

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  57. Not really Wytch-I prefer men who are overweight.

    In fact, I would rather go with a chubby guy then a thin one. A thin one (by thin I mean really stick thin) before an in shape one and really, not a fan of those gym rats. Ugh.

    Now the standard apparently is for a guy to look like Brad Pitt (yuck!) but I always liked guys like Oliver Platt. Yum.

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  58. BQ: "When you are listening to yet another mainstream media article lamenting the lack of eligable men for high powered women, do you think it is bad advice for women to start looking at men who perhaps make less money than them?"

    First of all, BQ, those mainstream media articles are reactionary and inaccurate. Their bottom line is always to urge women to forgo education and career lest men will be turned off by their success. However, it's a well-known fact that while career women marry later in life, they have lower divorce rates than "traditional girls" (source) and the number of women outearning their husbands has been steadily growing for nearly forty years now (source) -- which is more likely due to the education and earnings gap between men and women closing, as well as fewer men feeling "emasculated" by wives who don't fit the traditional mold of a helpless, child-like housewife who lives to cook, clean, bear children and not speak unless spoken to. So the supposed dearth of eligible men fit to date "high-powered" women is a myth. Of course, that said, people who are at the top of the ladder in terms of intelligence and talent have a much harder time finding a suitable partner (a partner, rather than a servant) than someone who is average all-around; for while "high-powered" women may be willing to date men who earn less than they do, I can't really fault them to giving a pass to men who are substantially less intelligent or gifted. A romantic relationship isn't some terse exchange of fertility for goods. Most women want someone with the capacity to understand them and to be an interesting, engaging companion, not just a warm body. If that's being "overly selective" in your book then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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  59. wytchfinde555:

    The fact that there are far more fat MEN than there are fat women on TV shows that fat men are more socially acceptable than fat women.

    Also, like Elizabeth, I would rather date a fat man than a thin or muscular man. I've dated thin men too, of course.

    My current boyfriend is a fat vegetarian. His chest and tummy is covered in beautiful thick hair and he shaves his head. He's not rich by any means but we take good care of each other.

    When it comes to marrying up or down- you should always be able to marry whom you want as long as the other person wants to marry you too. People who marry for status or beauty are idiots whether they are man or woman.

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  60. @ Elizabeth

    Ellizabeth said: "Lady Gaga is pretty without her overdoing the weird stuff and Queen Latifah is not attractive to you but that does not mean she is some how "objectively hideous looking."

    Fair enough. The main point is that many women who in the past would have developed other aspects of their personality to attract a man are now running around believing they're the second coming of Bo Derek and have an awful personlity to go with that.

    So what I believe this man is saying is not only in this day do you have large swaths of women, who a large number of men find unattractive, these same women tend to hold or have neglected to develop personality traits that generally are attractive to men.

    Random Brother

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  61. http://www.alternet.org/sex/149560/why_do_we_vilify_male_sexuality_3_myths_about_men_and_sex_debunked/?page=1

    Boy oh boy I cannot wait to see the reactions to this.

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  62. nicko81m said:

    "This is true, if a man dares to criticise a woman, he is an asshole or misogynist. Yet it's perfectly okay to criticise a man for any reason of not being good enough for women."

    EX FUCKING ACTLY!!

    Random Brother

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  63. @ David

    Trust me, you haven't seen me try and provoke anyone here. . .yet. I'm far more of an asshole when I'm provoking somenone.

    Random Brother

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  64. So wait, the only purpose for a woman's life is to attract a man?

    Hmmm...no.

    Therefore if the male does not like her traits-no one, and I mean NO ONE, is forcing him to spend time with her romantically. He may have to deal with her at work but that is much much different.

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  65. Elizabeth: "In fact, I would rather go with a chubby guy then a thin one. A thin one (by thin I mean really stick thin) before an in shape one and really, not a fan of those gym rats. Ugh."

    Why?

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  66. I have tried to figure out why but still no idea, I just do. Kind of how like I am a girl and just like boys. That is as simple as it gets.

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  67. "The fact that there are far more fat MEN than there are fat women on TV shows that fat men are more socially acceptable than fat women."---LexieDi

    Socially acceptable to use them as a source of hilarity.

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  68. "Now the standard apparently is for a guy to look like Brad Pitt (yuck!) but I always liked guys like Oliver Platt. Yum."---Elizabeth

    Then you are the exception than the rule.

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  69. Based on Lexie's comment, sounds like the rule is changing.

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  70. "Based on Lexie's comment, sounds like the rule is changing."---Elizabeth

    On ONE comment? Absolutely not.

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  71. @ Elizabeth

    Where do you get only purpose from?

    The writer is talking about a general trend in which it used to be understood IF you wanted a mate that you'd have some qualities to attract one. Many women find it somehow demeaning to develop any qualities in order to attract a man.

    Look at how you responded. You act as if learning/developing qualities that might attract a man = some sort of evil patriarchial oppression, which makes no sense.

    Let me put it this way, if a guy comes to me and says, I can't get any woman to like me, I'd tell him to work out some, tidy up his diet, learn game, brush up on hygiene, learn some jokes, etc. In other words do some self improvement. To most men this is logical and NOT an insult.

    However, a large number of this generation of women seem to believe they're perfect as is and that any sort of self improvement for men is some sort of degrading task akin to a slave picking cotton in the hot Alabama sun. Even the ugly ones have this attitude that men should accept them exactly as they are, yet they have no problem telling a man who wishes to date/be with them the ways in which he must improve/step up, to be with her.

    Random Brother

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  72. LexieDi: "The fact that there are far more fat MEN than there are fat women on TV shows that fat men are more socially acceptable than fat women."

    Doesn't mean Fat men are more socially acceptable. It means that it is how society is beginning to see men... IE, fat, lazy bumbling idiots, and that is far from the truth (no different then the Societal perception of woman as super-models and super-heroines, except women seem to be getting the better deal).

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  73. D: “You are talking about 000.2 of the female population regarding women who could be gold diggers.”

    Actually, according to this article, it went from 20% of women in 1949 to 40% in 1991. I’m sure it’s approaching 60% or higher now, though that is a hypothesis.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8237298/What-women-really-want-to-marry-a-rich-man.html

    David: “You realize that on MRA/MGTOW sites it is ALWAYS the other way around.”

    “Always”? That is a pretty bold thing to say, to claim that MRA’s “always” (AKA, all MRA’s) blame the woman. We’ll ignore the fact that feminists have been doing the exact same thing for 40 years now and look at just one recent case, Elaine Campione. (google it), where she murdered her own daughters, confessed to it on tape, confessed to doing it to hurt her ex husband, on tape, had her own mother testify that she was abusive, had been hospitalized for breakdowns and dangerous behaviour 3 times previous… but because the day after she killed her children, and had time to think about it, she recorded another tape accusing her ex of domestic abuse (despite them being divorced about 4 years, and again, her own mother testifying that she was abusive), and never having that substantiated in court (in fact, police were unable to corroborate the accusations), the feminist educated judge (Judge Stong) openly stated that the children would likely still be alive if it was not for the abusive husband… Thank god a jury was responsible for this woman’s sentencing and not him. There are ample cases of men being blamed for their own victimization, such as this one, of a woman walking free, no harm done, after killing her boyfriend, who started off asleep on the steps before being physically attacked by her (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/case+fuels+debate+over+domestic+violence/4051267/story.html ), or the man who was burned to death when his wife tried to immolate his penis. Men are routinely blamed by feminist educated judges (and the women who KILL them) for their own victimization, I’d call that a hell of a lot more damaging to social justice then a handful of guys on their personal blogs.

    I’ve noticed this on both MRA and feminist sites, you are willing to damn the other for actions your own side are also guilty of… the distinct difference is, feminists have been doing it for far longer, and are doing it in far more influential places. Let who is without sin throw the first stone.

    Booboo: “Well I find it a pretty lame suggestion that I should not express what assholes these guys are in the post. “

    Because you’re no better. You’re as hate filled, angry, dismissive and offensive as the people you claim to be railing against. You don’t seem to get the concept of damning all MRA’s for what a few of them have said is no different then MRA’s damning all feminists for what some have said and done, instead, you make a drastic generalization, based on David’s choice to pick the worst of the worst, of what all MRA’s are like, and act accordingly. Perhaps you also find it acceptable to assume you are no different then Andrea Dworkin (particularly given your level of hate and anger)?

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  74. I've noticed that the MRAs here never actually refute anything. They just go, "Nuh-uh! We don't do that! Like, .002 of MRAs do that! But all Feminists do!!"

    So basically, "DON'T GENERALIZE MRAS!! GENERALIZE FEMINISTS!!"

    If your only response is, "But women ..." then you might as well not respond.

    I've never heard a woman say that women should stop dating short, bald, fat guys because it makes their self-esteem too high and then they'll suddenly start thinking they don't have to develop any other personality traits. And there are plenty of women who fall for guys who, in my opinion, look a little trollish. Not because they're wealthy gents, but because that's the kind of guy they like.

    But if a woman rejects that short, fat, bald guy, we're called shallow bitches. Even if he doesn't have any other personality traits to make him interesting. Whereas the MRAs all want to date the hottest women possible, but that's not perceived as shallow. No siree.

    I'm in an odd place, personally. I've never had a desire to marry or date because I have far better things to do with my time. I'm considered fairly attractive, so I get attention from men, but I'm just not interested in relationships. And then I get to hear how I'm such a stuck-up bitch because I say I'm not interested when they ask me out. As if I'd said, "LOWLY PEON, HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME??" rather than, "No, thank you, I'm not interested." The argument used is usually that *they* are attracted to *me* and therefore I should want to go out with them. Logic fail, but this is what I keep hearing. I keep being told that my wants and desires are meaningless. The fact that I don't (and have never) dated in my life, the fact that I don't want to be married, the fact that I may not even find the guy attractive--these all do not matter because they want to get into MY underthings, and that's all that matters.

    But how dare those women feel empowered to say "No!" How dare they reject sincere advancements! How dare they get a little rude after the 15th guy has bothered her in one day! Stuck-up bitch! She was an ugly dyke anyway!

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  75. @chocomintlipwax

    I doubt all these guys want to have a relationship with someone who by their own definition is nothing but a one night stand/booty call.

    Stop making thing up.

    Random Brother

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  76. Richard-Choco answered you quite well and you choose to insult her.

    Great effort to foster a real conversation there.

    As for my comment-you are reading way too much into it. I suppose I should admit fault into reading too much into yours but that is kind of hard to do since I also have read your other comments. The fact is that IF a woman wants to attract a mate, yes doing some things that might make her more attractive might help. But then she reverts to her normal self and the guy gets mad because he wanted the fake version, not the real version.

    Same goes with a woman, although I think women tend to be more forgiving a male failing to maintain attract a woman standards.

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  77. Choco: “I've noticed that the MRAs here never actually refute anything.”

    Perhaps it is because we actually agree with what David is making fun of, just not the general perception that it is representative of, or even common amongst MRA’s. And as an example, I will point to your very own words…

    Choco: “But if a woman rejects that short, fat, bald guy, we're called shallow bitches. Even if he doesn't have any other personality traits to make him interesting. Whereas the MRAs all want to date the hottest women possible, but that's not perceived as shallow. No siree. “

    Let me repeat that:

    Choco: “…the MRAs ALL want… “

    Yes, you said “ALL”, you have attributed the desires of the person or people making the original post David quoted as being representative of all MRA’s. This is not rational, any more then it is rational to believe all feminists think all (again, the absolute “all”) men are rapists, even when performing consensual sex.

    You need to realize that David isn’t taking typical posts by MRA’s and displaying them, he is taking the most hateful examples, of which feminists have plenty themselves (look at Andrea Dworkin), and shinning a focus on them as if they are representative… and while he may not specifically be suggesting that these things are representative of all, or even many, MRA’s, there is a certain implication in his method, an implication that gets clearly absorbed by his readers, and becomes prevalent in their own posts and attitudes, such as most posts by Booboo or even your post here accusing “all” MRA’s of being shallow and only wanting the hottest women, and by all, you are stating an absolute which also includes the gay MRA’s.

    Many of us are replying simply to quash the perception that this is representative of even a substantial portion of MRA’s. This is no different then feminist trying to distance themselves from the SCUM Manifesto.

    Choco: “I keep being told that my wants and desires are meaningless.”

    This is precisely what the MRA , and men in general, are experiencing every day they try to get their concerns out. The feminist movement had nothing like the opposition that men are experiencing, and it makes some men bitter, very bitter.

    Elizabeth: “Richard-Choco answered you quite well and you choose to insult her.”

    Where did he insult her? Was it perhaps when he said “stop making things up, such as her claim that “ALL” MRA’s are shallow and driven on looks alone?

    Elizabeth: “But then she reverts to her normal self and the guy gets mad”

    Richard suggested self improvement (of ether gender seeking to improve potential for relations), not simply a mask. his suggestions were (generally) more long term.

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  78. @magdelyn:

    "That's me without make-up."

    What are you trying to do - make me feel funny in the pants!?

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  79. Now the standard apparently is for a guy to look like Brad Pitt (yuck!)
    Oh hell, I'm with you on that one!! My taste leans more towards Jeff Goldblum.

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  80. "The fact that there are far more fat MEN than there are fat women on TV shows that fat men are more socially acceptable than fat women."

    There are billions of BBW appreciation web sites, how many appreciate big men? There are dating websites that revolve around BBWs. How many are like this for big men? There are BBW beauty pageants, are there any for big men?

    The irony!

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  81. The idea that women only like alphas etc., etc., is patently ridiculous. Reasonable men and women like and love people with whom they connect. I am a thin, blonde, successful, well-educated woman, cohabiting with a caring, intelligent, much lower-income fat man. Were we put in "leagues," I would probably be way out of his, but the point of a feminist relationship is that we love and respect each other for who we are, not how we look or what we earn. We bond over a mutual love of sci fi, love of camping and the outdoors, and dreams of one day having our own hobby-farm, etc.

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  82. wytchfinde555 and Kratch:

    Seeing fat men on tv means that men are "allowed" to be fat in society. Not seeing fat women on tv means women are not "allowed" to be fat in society simply because they are not shown in our media. You hardly ever see fat women in relationships on television (I can only think of the beautiful Molly from Mike and Molly.) But fat men are abundant in relationships with "beautiful" women.

    Unfortunately fat men are all portrayed pretty much one way- as fools, but at least they are seen at all. Fat women are not portrayed as "super models and super heroines" they're simply not seen.

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  83. "Are online Dating Criteria Sexist?"

    "According to these newly updated guidelines, PlentyofFish matches women to men with equal or greater income and equal or greater height. Because heaven forbid we outearn our partners. And heaven forbid anyone ever have sex with a short guy.

    Furthermore, the site's newly posted matching criteria makes the odd claim that it thinks users should be sharing certain experiences for the first time (so, like, if I've never tried anal, are they only going to match me with men who have similarly never tried anal? Because two people have never had anal sex trying to have anal sex sounds like a recipe for disaster) which sounds a little bit like they're saying that people should have similar levels of sexual experience in order to be matched up, or have no sexual experience at all, which is another kind of fucked-up way of assuming to know what people's romantic preferences might be.

    On one hand, there are plenty of women (ladyfish?) who prefer to date men who are older, or taller, or richer, or all three, and that's just fine, but where this gets annoying is where the site decides that all women want the same things from romantic partners. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a diverse population of women has a diverse population of needs and wants, and it's insulting to insist that we're homogeneous. Now who wants to go shopping for shoes and eat some yogurt while talking about ways to trick our old rich husbands into impregnating us and/or buying us things?!?

    Read more: http://jezebel.com/5735069/is-online-dating-sites-matching-criteria-sexist#ixzz1BQRarMnD"

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  84. From Hugo Schwyzer, a male feminist:

    "Heat doesn’t require beauty: on “bowflex boy”, monogamy, and desire"

    "In my post, I wrote of being a college boy with an average and not particularly impressive physique who found himself having sex one night with a friend, Debbie, who had a poster of a stunningly perfect man hanging right over her bed. In post-coital conversation, I had asked why she (we had never hooked up before) would want to be with me when she had this flawless vision to look at. From the original post, Debbie’s words:

    “Hugo, I like looking at beautiful bodies. He’s a gorgeous guy. But the fact that I think it’s beautiful, even the fact that I am attracted to the image, doesn’t mean that that is the only kind of man I can be attracted to…I can appreciate perfection without expecting it, and I can really be just as attracted to a normal body as to a perfect one.”

    I wasn’t insulted. I was relieved. And it occurred to me, of course, that that was how I thought about my partners as well. I liked looking at sculpted, idealized bodies — but that was hardly the limit of what I was attracted to. As in so many areas of life, it’s helpful to think in terms of a spectrum of people to whom we could be attracted. The media offers us images we may or may not find beautiful, but they tend to offer us only a narrow slice of that spectrum. What we can want and what we do want is broader than we’re told."

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  85. nicko81m:

    BBW "appreciation" websites are usually just porno sites. And when it comes to dating, look up BHM, or Big Handsome Man on any one of those dating sites and you'll find that it's just as much for them.

    Men don't usually participate in beauty pageants, but I totally encourage you to do so. And fat girl beauty pageants are mocked for the most part. A fat woman, today, would never win Miss America or anything. Not that I think beauty pageants are wonderful things for women to do, I really don't.

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  86. ScareCrow: The picture is actually from a Twilight Zone episode back in the day. A lady is in the hospital getting plastic surgery to fix her hideous face. It's called "Eye of the Beholder." Good episode.

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  87. But if a woman rejects that short, fat, bald guy, we're called shallow bitches. Even if he doesn't have any other personality traits to make him interesting. Whereas the MRAs all want to date the hottest women possible, but that's not perceived as shallow. No siree.
    You reminded me of one of my posts within this thread:
    "But (and this is not directed at anyone in particular) don't condemn most women for being vain, shallow, manipulative creatures while soundly denying similar traits among most men, especially when you've just listed those similar traits that are shared among most men (as vagrantsvoice pointed out, gamers would say that men are attracted to one thing, and one thing only: physical appearance) ... that's a portion of what makes me unsupportive of most MRAs and the MRM, not my "inner man-hater". I do not accept that male shallowness is somehow far more noble than female shallowness."

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  88. DUHHH UH - DERRR - UHHH - DUHHH TANKS LEXEEEEDIIEE

    DUH UHM DUH, UHM DOH - KAY.

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  89. LexieDi

    Fat men get mocked too. What's your point? A fat man would never win the most sexy guy award in America.

    Even if a beauty pageant attempted to take place for fat men, it would not happen. It would get more ridicule than BBW

    Not that I am fat, I am skinny, but I can see straight through the BS when women express that fat women have it harder then fat men. I see it totally the other way around.

    There are countless dating websites out there that appreciate BBWs. I hardly see such websites that focus on big men

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  90. @Elizabeth:

    One more data point, I have a strong preference for solidly built men with facial hair. Especially if they possess a mechanical aptitude.

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  91. "Seeing fat men on tv means that men are "allowed" to be fat in society."---LexieDi


    Apparently, you haven't been paying close attention to the BBW/Goddess/diva stuff lately. It's judgmental to not accept overweight women but men are still mocked for potguts or being simply not in shape.

    Nicko is right. And fat men don't get the hot woman---period.

    Years ago there was a reality TV show for Average Joe 2 and the chef was overweight. He got axed from the program quickly---gorgeous women almost NEVER date overweight men unless they have a mammoth bank account(s), social prestige, and a never ending amount of charisma. Even that is no promise; people typically graviate towards others of similar attractiveness physically. That's life.

    I can tell everyone this much---when I was almost reed thin and pale skinned I might as well have been part of the wall. Now that I work out 3-4 times a week and eat healthy, I may not be Adonis but women do notice me. A lot more.

    If you don't think appearance doesn't count with women, you are in denial, naive, or have much to learn.

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  92. "The media offers us images we may or may not find beautiful, but they tend to offer us only a narrow slice of that spectrum. What we can want and what we do want is broader than we’re told." ---Hugo

    He should talk. He's a confessed ex-womanizer and someone that had his share of decent looking women, I'm sure.

    But he can play the Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder card and condemn others who don't have that view.

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  93. Everyone: There were a couple of pretty substantive comments caught in the spam filter that I just unblocked; if you've been following the discussion here you might want to scroll up and read them.

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  94. Why should fat men get the hot chicks?

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  95. Outside of t.v of course that teaches them that somehow they deserve them.

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  96. ScareCrow:

    You're the one who asked. And I was perfectly respectful in giving you an informative answer.

    Nicko and Wytch:

    I didn't say fat men don't get mocked. They do. However the threshold for what is an acceptable size is higher for men than it is for women.

    Just because fat women have banded together (along with some men)to stand up and proclaim that our bodies are perfect as they are- fat or not doesn't mean that fat women aren't harassed daily. My brother's fatter than I am but I'm the one who gets food thrown at me and yelled at from cars. Even my little brother knows that, in general, fat women have it harder than fat men.

    My boyfriend's fat and he's got me and I'm hot. Sooo.. yeah, fat men do get hot women.

    Did I say looks don't count with women? No. I said that fat men are at least represented in the media where as fat women hardly ever are.

    Nicko: I'm sorry, but I don't see how you have much of a standing in an argument about fatness if you're not fat. I've been fat my whole life and have been around my brother who has been fat his whole life and he and I discuss the differences in treatment all the time. You have an opinion but you have little to no experience to back it up.

    Unfortunately, the pressure on men to be thinner is growing, but that pressure has been on women for a very long time. None of it is good and we should all be allowed to be who we are without ridicule.

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  97. Kave: Why shouldn't fat men get "hot" women? Why shouldn't fat women get "hot" men? Why does it matter who "gets" who? It's supposed to be about caring and love.

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  98. @LexieDi - magdelyn already told me it was her without her makeup on.

    You're obviously jealous that YOU don't look that good.

    And please stop undressing me with your eyes.

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  99. Kratch-read her comment again and then his. See the insult there?

    Anyway, long term self improvements do not stick if all you are doing is trying to achieve a short term goal. Once the goal is achieved, there is no reason to keep going at it.

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  100. Hide-ewww! I cannot stand facial hair!

    You can have all the men with facial hair.

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  101. OK, let's do a reality check here.

    Nobody gives a flying fuck who *you* think is attractive. By "you" I mean every single person in the world, including myself.

    Suppose I explained who I thought was attractive. How could that possibly matter to you, the reader? It's not like I'm some authority on that. And you aren't, either. In fact, no one is, even the self-appointed judges of appearance who decide who wins pageants and who gets on magazine covers.

    The only reason I can think of to share beauty standards in public is to sort strangers into beautiful and ugly. Which is something that has nothing to do with having friendships and relationships--you know, with people who aren't strangers, and who care what you think.

    For instance I have a friend (happily married, with kids) whose face looks like a movie monster, because when he was a kid someone threw battery acid in his face and it had to be reconstructed, and now he's blind and has a face made out of skin grafts. I love this guy, and he's a blast to hang out with, and crack jokes with, and talk about tech stuff, and I really couldn't care less if some random person who's not his wife thinks he's ugly and therefore doesn't want to be his friend. Because such a person would be a total asshole.

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  102. Scarecrow, I can't imagine why young, beautiful women would, instead of laughing, snap and yell at you when you make your "humorous [or so you think] and smart-ass" remarks, I really can't. Yet you say on your blog that that is typical for you. It must be because they prefer those sociopathic alpha thugs to a gentleman like you.

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  103. "But men get to express more of their humanity."

    Really? I can be anything from a girly girl to a tom-boy, and no one bats an eye. A woman can wear clothes which are masculine or feminine-other than a jock strap there are no clothes which are considered too male for women to wear. They can carry a bifold wallet or a purse. They can drive a truck, motorcycle, car, or any combination. They can work in any field without being shamed, from farming to fashion design. They can have relationships with each other and be physically and emotionally close with other women without being shamed. They can show emotion in public without being shamed.

    Men are demeaned and distained for any of the above.Men cannot wear women's clothes, cannot work in certain jobs, cannot have close relationships with other men, etc, without being shamed and ridiculed. Heck, driving a Prius or a scooter is considered unmasculine. Men have really not shed any of their gender roles while women have shed pretty much every gender role.

    Yes, much of that ridicule is by other men, just as gender roles for women were (and are in other countries) enforced by other women.

    There are people who still feel women have gender roles, but it is very possibly for a woman to live her whole life doing what she chooses and the gender roles do not effect her ability to work and have relationships. It is not so for men. They can and are fired from jobs and socially ostracized for something as simple as wearing a skirt.

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  104. "First of all, BQ, those mainstream media articles are reactionary and inaccurate. Their bottom line is always to urge women to forgo education and career lest men will be turned off by their success."

    Actually, their bottom line is to sell their product. It would be stupid for a business to encourage it's customers to make less money to buy their products. Where do you get these ideas from?

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  105. Lexie

    Because they don't. 10's mate with 10's 9's with 9's etc. 99% of the time. The problem is many 3 men expect and want 10 women. It really doesn't happen in real life and this makes them angry. I'm only posting numbers because that's what mra's do. I've never seen a number rating system on a feminist blog.

    As an off note I've been potrayed as a moderate mra on this site by members of the spearhaed. I'm not, I'm just a worried brother who watches their scihzophrenic brothers online activities and sometimes posts a moderate message.

    He won't read this blog because it doesn't justify his delusional thinking. So I can vent here about what I've endured for the last eight years. I'm also D, but I could not log into that account.

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  106. > Because they don't. 10's mate with 10's 9's with 9's etc. 99% of the time. The problem is many 3 men expect and want 10 women. It really doesn't happen in real life and this makes them angry. I'm only posting numbers because that's what mra's do. I've never seen a number rating system on a feminist blog.

    Another useful reality check.

    Reality. It's the only one we've got.

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  107. ScareCrow: I have a man that I don't have to undress with my eyes. But if it makes you feel better to believe I am objectifying you, then, by all means, have a nice dream about it or something.

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  108. Kane: My point is that I don't know why we have to have number ratings in the first place. To me, my boyfriend is a 10, but to the populace he may not be. What is a 10 changes from generation to generation and from person to person.

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  109. Lexie

    My wife and I are both in our late forties, we are both 10's in each others eyes. I feel that towards her, and I see it in her eyes and words everyday.

    Normal people know what you're trying to say.

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  110. If you are the same Kave that occasionally posts at The Spearhead, I have mentioned you at this blog as being a moderate MRA, assuming you were MRA due to being a member at Spearhead.
    I'd like to say that I am glad that you found this blog and I wish you well in trying to look out for your brother.

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  111. This pretty much sums up the fat men vs. fat women thing:

    FAT WIFE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14DZsxgP_SE&feature=player_embedded

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  112. Pam.

    I am, and I am sorry that I gave the illusion of being an mra. At some point I will write about the mix of the mra and his history but at this point it's hard to put into words and not to blame individual posters who may be very well meaning in heart for whats happened in our family because of his illness.

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  113. Kave,

    Nothing to be sorry about, I just often wondered why such a level-headed guy (in my opinion, anyway) wanted to hang with the bunch who frequent that forum. I have never posted at that site, just lurk there on occasion to see what kind of nonsense some of them are spewing...laughed my ass off when you asked one of them how would it be possible for all the women to be on the front line when they were all in rape camps (same poster who advocated for rape camps was also wanting to put women on the front line).
    I, for one, would be interested in hearing about the mix of the MRA and his history, but I can understand and respect your difficulty in verbalizing it.

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  114. There's a difference in content to the advice given to men and women about changing themselves to attract the opposite sex.

    When men say they can't get a second date, they're told to brush their teeth, bathe, wear reasonably attractive clothing, think of interesting topics to discuss, be polite, and smile. These are all things you'd do if you wanted a date, a friend, a job, or a sale.

    When women say they can't get a second date, they're told to let the guy choose what to do, lose weight, wear sexier clothing, put on some lipstick, consider cosmetic surgery, don't be demanding, laugh at his jokes even if you don't think they're funny, don't try to seem too smart. Those are all things you'd do if you were a sex worker or slave.

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  115. Pam,


    It's funny because mra's say that women don't have a sense of humor but not one of them laughed at the whole "all women in sex camps" and on the font line thing. I'm glad someone got a chuckle out of it beside myself.

    Long story short my brother hears voices and he has gotten a lot of support of his voices in the mra community.

    I know people have to take people at their word online, I try to not be angry with the people who have told my schizophrenic brother that the voices in his head are real. But they have impeded his treatment not to mention cost our family literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Perhaps we would have had to pay for boarding school for my niece and nephew; perhaps he would have neglected his treatment anyways, and perhaps his children and his ex partner would have lived in fear even if the mra weren’t there to support his delusions.

    In my brother’s mind: His wife left him for no reason and everyday attacks him.

    In reality: Baring marrying a man with diagnosed schizophrenia who was on meds at the time, and being a slightly hippie type who normally wouldn’t fit into our family she’s done pretty well.

    My brother has posted at length about the child support he has paid. He’s never paid a dime nor has the case ever gone to court. Our family has paid for his children since they were five-ish; we have also paid for him to not be homeless since again he went off his meds.

    In my brother’s mind: His daughter was a slut bitch just like her mother since she was twelve. He’s told me this repeatedly.

    In reality: His ex is a decent if not hippie type woman. His daughter is an absolute joy who just got married in November. A wedding that was hidden from him, as is her address.

    In my brother’s mind: His son has the same issues that he does.

    In reality: My nephew does not have schizophrenia hence he does not have his fathers view on women in general. My nephew like my niece has twice been subjected to life threatening incidents where my brother decided that if his kids would not live with him they would not live.
    Of course there are many more “In my brother’s mind”.

    Our family is very lucky. We have the resources to help these kids and my brother. But it’s hard to tell your brother it’s right that he’s in a mental locked facility when a couple of hundred of men and women online are telling him he’s the victim.

    I can’t blame the mra completely for feeding his fantasies, again I’m sure they are well meaning and just take him at his word. But they have made my life harder. Not to mention my niece and nephew, parents etc.

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  116. Biscuit Queen: "Actually, their bottom line is to sell their product. It would be stupid for a business to encourage it's customers to make less money to buy their products. Where do you get these ideas from?"

    BQ, I get these ideas from observation and the simple truth that in an old and entrenched industry, people are far more likely to bow to tradition rather than act rationally, when tradition and rationality are at odds with each other. You, on the other hand, make the mistake of assuming that people who need to sell magazines or products advertised in them will pursue that objective in a rational manner.

    Let's take one obvious example of merchants deliberately killing the goose that lays the golden egg. It is a well-known fact that advertisers obsessively target the 15-25 demographic, although it is the demographic with the least money and therefore the least buying power. Why? Tradition and cultural pressure, that's why. Sure, you can argue that people between the ages of 15-25 are the most impressionable and impulsive, get consumer credit easily, and lack the experience of dealing with debt. However, any smart executive has to realize that driving someone into bankruptcy with a cheap car and a string of midnight pizzas will make it that much more unlikely for that person to spend money on BMW's and Prada bags 20 years down the road.

    Which brings me to my next point: people whose bottom line is to sell stuff think short-term. They care about this year's balance sheet. They don't give a shit about problems that their successors will have to deal with 20 years from now, when they are retired and living it up in Boca Raton. They want to make money NOW, even if the ways in which they do it will undercut sales in the distant future. Inflammatory, reactionary articles sell tabloids today, and I assure you, those who publish them do not care one fig about the possibility that women may draw the obvious inference and as a result, have less money to buy that tabloid in some distant future. Après moi, le déluge: it's basic human nature.

    Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting here, both advertising and popular mass media pander heavily to blatant sexist stereotypes and strictly defined gender roles, with perhaps a nod to political correctness here and there. Advertisers and publishers of tabloids make a bet that by validating bias, they will get people to buy the product. And thus, household cleaning commercials feature only women cleaning and doing laundry. Commercials with cooking scenes almost always have the woman cooking; on rare occasions where the cooking is done by a man, it's always for a surprise romantic meal -- the fact that it's a surprise implying that the man doesn't ordinarily cook, even though he is more than capable. Advertisers have no qualms about telling men that they can put the bitch in her place by eating a greasy sandwich or putting on a pair of chinos; that giving your wife to a bunch of thugs to rape and murder in order to save your tires is funny; and that compromising on anything in a relationship makes them whimps, because "real men" just order their women about. And of course, we have tabloid articles concern-trolling that women who don't dedicate their lives to being someone's home appliance can't find love.

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  117. Kave, my sympathies. Obviously a very difficult situation.

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  118. It's funny because mra's say that women don't have a sense of humor but not one of them laughed at the whole "all women in sex camps" and on the font line thing. I'm glad someone got a chuckle out of it beside myself.

    I'm not surprised that not one of them laughed at your mocking the glaring contradiction evident in his proposed "cures" for "the woman problem". Next thing you know, he'll have all of us women in the coal mines...but only when we're not serving on the front line or grazing around in the sex camp. Not only are MRAs seemingly completely oblivious to their many contradictions, but they're not about to expose themselves to ridicule for breaking rank (and they accuse ALL women of having "herd mentality") and admitting that a mockery directed at one of their own was humourous.

    Women don't have a sense of humour because women aren't laughing uproariously at the zillionth time that they've heard "Ah, you must be one of those hairy-pitted, hairy-legged man-hating lesbian gorilla cat ladies" (or a reasonable facsimile thereof). I dunno, somewhere between the tenth and the zillionth time I've heard that, it's just somehow lost its edge. But MRAs think that it's just as hilarious the zillion time it's stated as it was the first time it was stated.
    And would somebody please explain to me where this bit about the cats comes from.

    I try to not be angry with the people who have told my schizophrenic brother that the voices in his head are real.

    Perhaps they honestly DO think that the voices in his head (that he must be telling them about) are metaphorical -- perhaps being inner voices of intuition or something of that nature. Not that that helps with the reality of the situation, but even if you DID try to tell them the truth, they wouldn't believe you because you've been branded a troll for not completely toeing the MRA line. So very sad.

    Thank you for sharing a bit of your life experience with us. And although a blog site can't really help you directly with what you are facing, I do hope that you will stick around this one for a while and enjoy the lively banter. If nothing else, perhaps it will provide you with some comic relief.

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  119. Thanks Pam and David.

    I am addicted to this blog! In the eight or so years I've been tracking his online activity I have never (or rarely) smiled doing so. I've laughed out loud in the last few weeks; in fact I've read out loud entries over family dinner. (my father loves you)

    David you have done a great thing for my family. I can't put it into words how wonderful it is to know that you are not alone in seeing how ludicrous all this is.

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  120. Hey Kave--

    David F. knows my email, so if you ever need a friendly online pen pal to vent to let me know; someone in an online feminist community did the same for me when I was coping with "divorcing" (so to speak) my abusive mother, so I wouldn't mind paying it forward. :)

    Either way, I hope things get better for you. You sound like you've been doing all you can to make things better. A good person to talk to about these sorts of issues is Hugo Schwyzer--do you know/know of him? I can connect you guys on Facebook if you want to vent "man-to-man."

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  121. Also, Kave, have you considered directing your brother towards disability rights blogs? I know it can be hard to reconcile with your experience, but he is oppressed in a lot of ways as person with disabilities. That could help channel some of his rightful angers at an ableist society, and curb some of his misdirected anger at women as a category; perhaps even prompting proper self-care and treatment? Sometimes not caring for one's disability is a purposeful form of self-harm, and no matter how hateful he is, he is still a human deserving of proper care (but you know that already :) ).

    http://blobolobolob.blogspot.com/2010/05/blogging-against-disablism-day-2010.html

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  122. @Kave

    You're most welcome! When you treat others the way you yourself would like to be treated, sometimes it is returned in kind...funny that...

    I can't put it into words how wonderful it is to know that you are not alone in seeing how ludicrous all this is.

    Hey, if you want ludicrous, look no further than Peter Andrew: Nolan (think he even copyrighted his name, just in case, y'know, somebody has a death wish and wants to masquerade as him), the artist formerly known as Globalman. I think he has recently been allowed back at Spearhead, but I could be wrong.

    Anyhow, I think David has given me more than enough leeway to go off-topic in this thread, so I will not derail his topic any further. Thanks, David, for allowing the derail.

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  123. Hahaha, is Nolan a sovereign citizen too?

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  124. Hahaha, is Nolan a sovereign citizen too?
    Oh my, YES! And YOU can be, TOO!! Peter can help you...
    Try to make your way through his hefty Introduction and Overview
    and then slide on over to grab some Scanned Docs

    But remember, seeing as poor Peter had to work on a recapture for his strawman... I think it may have run off with the gingerbread man...and so Peter might end up in the wicker man. Don't let this happen to YOU!!

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  125. OH MY GOSH!!!! THANK YOU for this Pam!

    Seriously, thank you, I need more of these forms so I can use them as part of a presentation.

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  126. You're welcome! Here are some more sample docs
    Those are from the lawfulrebellion website, not Peter's.

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