Monday, January 24, 2011

How to get downvoted on The Spearhead: Internet Dating Edition

Spearhead readers: Not actually as cool as Fonzie.
When sites enable users to upvote and downvote comments and posts, the rationale is generally that it improves discussion and filters out trolls. In practice, this is almost never the case; instead, the up and down arrows offer the majority a way to reward those who simply rehash the party line and punish those who dare suggest anything even remotely challenging. This punishment is accentuated on sites on which dissenters who are downvoted beyond a certain threshold see their comments literally vanish, unless readers click a special link to make them visible again.

We've seen in the past the sorts of things that get massively upvoted on The Spearhead. A comment suggesting that "a woman’s vagina/body is her one and only asset" got, at last count, 58 upvotes and only 4 downvotes. Comments suggesting that women are "parasites," "dumb as bricks," incapable of logic or empathy each got dozens of upvotes and only a handful of downvotes, as did comments suggesting that women should never have been given the right to vote.  Heck, one recent comment suggesting that Daniel Hernandez was "a traitor to men" for helping to save Gabrielle Giffords' life got twice as many upvotes as downvotes. (As I pointed out in a recent post, there were actually a number of comments in that vein; they all got more upvotes than downvotes)

So if these sorts of comments get upvoted, the question arises: what sort of horrible, beyond-the-pale nuttiness actually invites downvotes on the site? Well, in a recent guest posting there, someone calling himself Big Daddy From Cincinnati offered some (not really very good) internet dating advice for the misogynist masses. Along the way he opined that "women are amoral creatures, flakes, and they will reject you for anything, everything, nothing, the phase of the moon, or who knows what. They will lead you on and waste your time ... . "

While most commenters seemed to agree with this characterization of the ladies, one anonymous gal suggested instead that:





Yep, you can practically hear the Spearhead guys furiously downvoting that bit of heresy. What an outlandish opinion, clearly the work of an evil, misandrist troll! Probably a lesbian, too. I mean, what kind of crazy man-hating monster would she have to be not to be utterly smitten by the Spearhead men?

--

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131 comments:

  1. I've seen the up/downvote system work in some cases, but you have to have a good commentariat for that to be successful.

    Salt Lake Tribune used to do this; I wonder why they stopped.

    ReplyDelete
  2. This is the problem with parents and teachers who tell their children, 'You're perfect just the way you are.'

    The get surprised and pissed off when they find out that they actually have to do things like be nice to people and have social skills and care about what other people want in order to have friends and get dates.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I think it's more of an terrible fear of failure. If they don't try very hard and don't even attempt to make genuine connections with the people they date then it's not their fault when it doesn't work out. In fact, they said from the beginning that they knew it would not work out, so every bad experience just confirms their view of the world.

    It's like they are choosing to fail because succeeding is scary. God-damn it, Dave, I don't want to feel sorry for these motherfuckers; look what you've gone and done.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I don't feel sorry for them, Hide and Seek. Having another person desire intimacy with you is a privilege, and it has to be earned. At the same time, it's really not that hard to earn it. If they can't do the minimum necessary to get into someone's pants, they would do the gene pool a huge favor by never reproducing.

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  5. I don't know, Amused, I'm not convinced that it is that black and white. A lot of those gentlemen seem to really want fulfilling relationships but are going about finding them in a way that almost ensures they won't succeed.

    They made me think of this Ben Franklin quote: "Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable."

    :(

    ReplyDelete
  6. But I'm totally ambivalent about empathizing with people who hate me. That's bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hide and Seek, this song sums it up for me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVLFlkehGuU

    ReplyDelete
  8. Their problems go way beyond a simple fear of failure. These are an entitled group of men whining about women having basic rights and freedoms and their idea of a decent woman is one who will obey and cater to them. I don't feel sorry for them.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "Having another person desire intimacy with you is a privilege, and it has to be earned. At the same time, it's really not that hard to earn it."

    If you're a woman. If you're a man, "earning" intimacy can be a life or death proposition.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I don't know, you have to fight hate with love, otherwise, what are you doing?

    Or so my aging hippie parents told me. I should give 'em a call.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Deezee, I've read that Baumeeister piece, but I'm not going to go through the whole thing to see why intimacy for a man is a "life or death proposition" and isn't for women. So why don't you just explain your logic here.

    ReplyDelete
  12. " For women throughout history (and prehistory), the odds of reproducing have been pretty good. Later in this talk we will ponder things like, why was it so rare for a hundred women to get together and build a ship and sail off to explore unknown regions, whereas men have fairly regularly done such things? But taking chances like that would be stupid, from the perspective of a biological organism seeking to reproduce. They might drown or be killed by savages or catch a disease. For women, the optimal thing to do is go along with the crowd, be nice, play it safe. The odds are good that men will come along and offer sex and you’ll be able to have babies. All that matters is choosing the best offer. We’re descended from women who played it safe.

    For men, the outlook was radically different. If you go along with the crowd and play it safe, the odds are you won’t have children. Most men who ever lived did not have descendants who are alive today. Their lines were dead ends. Hence it was necessary to take chances, try new things, be creative, explore other possibilities. Sailing off into the unknown may be risky, and you might drown or be killed or whatever, but then again if you stay home you won’t reproduce anyway. We’re most descended from the type of men who made the risky voyage and managed to come back rich. In that case he would finally get a good chance to pass on his genes. We’re descended from men who took chances (and were lucky)."

    ReplyDelete
  13. I don't think its a bad thing to find ourselves feeling empathy for our enemies. One of the great failings of the MRA movement is it's utter lack of anything even remotely resembling empathy for someone who is not also an MRA.

    By coming to empathize with those we oppose, we will be able to understand them. And through understanding them, we will be able to counter them.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I like how Big Daddy provides the proverbial lament:
    "Do NOT take online dates out to dinner. Some girls use online dating that to get beta chumps to buy them dinner and have an audience for their babbling on the nights when they are not getting fucked bowlegged by that scamp of an itinerant alpha male in their life...Buying dinner also brands you as a beta-backup-plan when she can no longer attract the alpha attention and pounding that she will never tell you that she craves, or when Mr. Rogue Alpha and his magic hoo-hoo-dilly are out of town for the weekend."

    and then right on the heels of that, offers the timely advice of why to meet the girl for coffee at, say, a bookstore:
    "If the girl who shows up is much more fat or fugly than you anticipated, you can duck behind the shelves and casually exit the establishment without having to spend any time on a Date from Hell. Much better to go home and skin it back yourself than to waste time talking in public to a chick who you would be embarrassed to have your buddies know that you boned."

    Yeah, my heart bleeds for these guys.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Dave - how come none of the whacky zany comments you pull from no-name forums with no-name nics like "nightranger37" aren't also trolls on those forums and blogs?

    Lemme guess - you'll get back to me on that.

    For all we know - all the wacky comments you keep pulling from dead threads on forums are - YOU.

    Funny - when I click on the links to see the forums you talk about - I can't - as I am not a member of any of them...

    Yet - neither you are any of your feminist minions have pointed that out... (complained about not being able to view the links because they are not members)...

    This tells me that you - and the feminists who post here - MUST be members on those forums.

    Wisdom and logic -sucks don't it.

    It would not surprise me if this message didn't go through like almost all my others.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Deezee, we discussed this issue before. The reason for this is basically that high-status men had sex with -- which in many cases means that they raped -- a lot of women. Ghengis Khan's DNA is literally everywhere. It's not like women in male-dominated cultures had a lot of choice.

    And what is "life and death" about not spreading one's DNA far and wide? I'm not planning on having any kids. Neither are a lot of women I know. Big fucking deal. I suppose in genetic terms this means "death" but in real-world terms it means, uh, I don't want kids, and I don't have any. Seems like I'm actually getting what I want. Yay birth control!

    ReplyDelete
  17. To Christine WE:

    They have no problems approaching women and they are not afraid of being rejected (They don't suffer from Social Anxiety/Social Phobia/Shyness). They believe they are entitled to women and because women don't want them, they hate women. That's the reason many of these guys try to become PUA, they believe they will be able to trick women.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "how come none of the whacky zany comments you pull from no-name forums with no-name nics like "nightranger37" aren't also trolls on those forums and blogs?"

    Many of those I quote have posted literally thousands of posts on these forums -- all of which are highly trafficked forums. I've never met a troll that dedicated. And their comments are responded to favorably by other posters there.

    And elsewhere: If you go back to the Mousetrap Vagina post, I added a bit at the end about how Nightstorm's comments had gotten lavish praise on MarkyMark's blog. Is MarkyMark a troll? Don't think so.

    That positive response, after all, is the whole point of this post: the crazy shit is upvoted by DOZENS of people on The Spearhead, which by the way is one of the most highly trafficked sites in the "manosphere" and doesn't require you to register in order to see comments.

    You can go and check each one mentioned in this post if you want. The post I screencapped has picked up 20 more downvotes since I screencapped it, and only 6 more upvotes.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I've been hanging out on OK Cupid lately and I can see some of these guys on the path to MRA-dom right before my very eyes. And it really does start with a very basic sense of entitlement -- I've done this thing that women are supposed to find attractive, why aren't they rewarding me? (their self-provided answer is normally a variation of "because women are stupid and incapable of reaching the logical conclusion that they should reward me.")

    The comment sections of the Journals on OKC are dominated by "misandrist trolls" (a guy posted a journal just today dedicated to them by that name), who are pretty good at pointing out this sense of entitlement and other attitudinal errors that stand in the way of making a decent match. It's amazing how little the guys get it. These are men who one would think are not so far gone that they're beyond the reach of an intervention. But after watching several of these encounters, I'm starting to think the tipping point is much earlier than I previously thought. And yes, I find it very difficult to feel sorry for them. The cure for their misery is right in front of them but they refuse to take it.

    ReplyDelete
  20. You just evaded the question:

    How come none of your minions have complained about not being able to view the forum threads - because they are not members.

    Clearly - they are members - and hence - trolls.

    A troll that is devoted?

    I am guessing that the womyn here that are so eager to "mock" these posts are in fact the ones leaving such posts.

    Are they also the ones pointing them out to you Dave?

    And how on Earth do you find the time to browse those forums with so many damned topics and replies and whatnot - and you come up with that one gem - like finding a needle in a haystack.

    My Aunt's Hat.

    I am seeing through this now.

    FRAUD.

    Clearly - you and your followers are members on those forums - and leaving those comments yourselves - that is how you find them so readily.

    I am going to expose you as the fraud you are.

    Perhaps get some of those forum runners to block your IP or IP's.

    If there is any douchebaggery in those circles - I think I know now where it is coming from.

    ReplyDelete
  21. ScareCrow, I just made my first ever visit to Spearhead. I'm about 20 comments deep on that internet dating article. If you are to be believed, then 19 out of 20 of those comments are actually trolls. You are seriously fucking deluded.

    ReplyDelete
  22. *hands out popcorn for when Scarecrow finds the smoking gun to David's supposed trolling*

    I would suggest holding our breath but we would all pass out before he did.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Nice try Sophia. You and I both know I am not talking about the spearhead.

    I am talking about the really zany comments from the forums that you need to be a member in order to view the threads.

    Nice try.

    FAIL.

    You too Elizabeth.

    FAIL.

    ReplyDelete
  24. P.S. Sophia X - profile not available.

    Elizabeth - bogus AOL link.

    Nice try.

    FAIL

    ReplyDelete
  25. Scarecrow: Honestly, I don't think many people actually click on the links in my articles. Indeed, looking back through my old postings to prepare this post, I noticed a couple of the links were broken (blogger sometimes randomly adds a "blogger.com" url in front of the urls I try to post), and no one mentioned that.

    As for finding these "needles in a haystack," well, these crazy comments are EVERYWHERE on these sites. It's more like finding one of 1000 giant metal spikes in a small haystack.

    Link me to any random recent article on The Spearhead, and I guarantee you I can find you some crazy misgogyny in the comments there.

    Also, sometimes I use a forum's search functions to find posts on certain topics. OMG!

    ReplyDelete
  26. Also, Scarecrow, if you really want to find "proof" you can always sign up for the forums yourself. It's not terribly difficult. Generally you have to give a working email address and wait for confirmation, but that's as complicated as it gets.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Gosh, Scarecrow, why might women posting on a site whose audience includes a lot of really angry men not want to make all of their personal information public? Hmm. Must be a conspiracy!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Why do you need my personal info ScareCrow?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Ok, ScareCrow, have you convinced yourself that not only are all those comments troll comments but that they are all authored by David? Why the hell would I make my profile available when it's creeps like you that are going to look at it? I don't have a blog, and I don't think my comments require demographic information to be intelligible.

    As for David finding "needles in a haystack," now halfway through the comments on that Spearhead article and if anything I think David's pulled excerpts under-represent the frequency of these comments. Every single fucking comment in that thread that has anything remotely positive to say about women is hidden. Every. Single. Fucking. One. It is a community of commenters that will not tolerate anything positive being said about women. They do all the filtering for anyone looking for misogyny. Only comments reflecting a misogynistic attitude are allowed to stand.

    ReplyDelete
  30. You are so dodging the issue dave:

    "if you really want to find "proof" you can always sign up for the forums yourself"

    I have no doubt that the comment is there - I am wondering who exactly left it.

    Nice way to evade the issue Dave.

    FAIL.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I would suggest holding our breath but we would all pass out before he did.
    Yeah, I like your other idea better.... pass the popcorn, please!!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Clearly - they are members - and hence - trolls.
    Not necessarily, they might just be lurking at those sites.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I use extra salt. Hope you do not mind.

    ReplyDelete
  34. OK, Scarecrow, you got me. Everything on the Internet? I wrote it. Every last thing, including your blog and all of your comments.


    I am a very fast typist.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I use extra salt. Hope you do not mind.
    No, not at all, I'm a saltaholic!! And, hope I'm not asking too much, but might I have butter on mine?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Melted, fake or that stuff they have at movie theatres?

    ReplyDelete
  37. Melted, fake or that stuff they have at movie theatres?
    I would have to say melted or fake. That stuff that they have at the movie theatres is lacking in flavour.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @Futrelle:

    "OK, Scarecrow, you got me. Everything on the Internet? I wrote it. Every last thing, including your blog and all of your comments.
    I am a very fast typist. "

    Dodging the issue still.

    I question the validity of the more "screwball" comments you find on those FORUMS.

    That is, I question exactly WHO made them.

    Go ahead and dodge the issue DF...

    You are good at things like that.

    ReplyDelete
  39. For women throughout history (and prehistory), the odds of reproducing have been pretty good...We’re descended from women who played it safe.
    ...Most men who ever lived did not have descendants who are alive today. Their lines were dead ends...


    I wonder how many of us are descended from fat or fugly women...

    ReplyDelete
  40. "...most commenters seemed to agree with this characterization of the ladies, one anonymous gal suggested instead that:"

    How do you know it was a "gal" Dave?

    Or is that an assumption?

    ReplyDelete
  41. “I wonder how many of us are descended from fat or fugly women”

    Even mega fat and fugly women can score. Any woman that exist on the planet can score. A woman can be as bitter and men hating she wants and she will still be able to score.

    Life is so easy for a woman

    Anyway back to what was said in the OP

    David said:
    "rehash the party line and punish those who dare suggest anything even remotely challenging"

    In 99 percent of feminist spaces, there isn't allowed to be a challenge against feminism. A person with an opposing opinion on feminism doesn't even last 5 minutes

    ReplyDelete
  42. I hate that line, 'any woman can get laid.'

    Yeah, sure, if you don't mind fucking fugly losers. But most women have these things called standards - we like to be with men who are reasonably good looking, practice good hygiene and don't leer at us like we're some kind of canned ham on the grocery store shelf, or a life support system for tits and a pussy.

    And I know several women who have a hard time getting dates, for a myriad of reasons.

    And sometimes, *men* don't want to have sex - either in general or with a particular woman. Crazy, I know, but men in general also have standards.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Since most of the people posting on this blog are not of the ruling class, I would venture to say that our ancestors were thin for the most part. Excessive weight did not become a sign of poverty until relatively recently.

    Also, changing standards of beauty tend to make it hard to determine what is attractive or not.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Since most of the people posting on this blog are not of the ruling class, I would venture to say that our ancestors were thin for the most part. Excessive weight did not become a sign of poverty until relatively recently.

    Also, changing standards of beauty tend to make it hard to determine what is attractive or not.


    I was just being an ass, toying with that "only the Alpha thugs succeed at getting laid" crap. Although not the prime topic of the OP, as nicko81m kindly pointed out, I followed one of the links that was provided to read some counselling on how to get the hell outta Dodge if she (the online date) turned out to be fat and fugly.

    I can imagine that I'll soon be fat and fugly, stuffing my face with popcorn while waiting for Scarecrow to produce that smoking gun.

    ReplyDelete
  45. There's a problem with your sock puppet theory, ScareCrow.

    It's this:

    http://www.manboobz.com/2011/01/murder-and-male-resentment.html

    Are you one of David's sock puppets? Because you can spout insane misogynist crap with the best of them.

    ReplyDelete
  46. These guys that have a sense of entitlement are Nice Guys (TM). They expect that if they do something for a woman, she will fall in love with them or give them sex. And they resent women because it doesn't happens. Heartless Bitches International have a series of articles about Nice Guys (TM) : http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

    ReplyDelete
  47. David did say he was posting everything on these here interwebz.

    That is how ScareCrow knew that Sophia and I are fake!

    ReplyDelete
  48. Joe, weirdly, Scarecrow now claims that he was trolling me with that post on Deborah Flores-Narvaez. (Though of course my post was also based on 3 other posts by him that were equally creepy.)

    Scarecrow: Please reread anonymous' comment again; she's talking about her own personal experience dealing with guys.

    ReplyDelete
  49. And these guys obsess over female bloggers. One of them, Obsidian, lost his blog because he stole the picture of a female blogger that he was obsessed with : http://glpiggy.net/2010/11/03/obsidians-been-banned/. Even after that he was still obsessed with her. A woman commented in the thread :
    ==============================================
    Well this whole situation has proved one thing to me, men like drama as much as some empty headed women. uncle mu for the love of christ the woman doesn’t to answer so let her be. she is not lamont hill. she may bring stalker charges against you if you keep this up. now you posted her link here so gordy and chuck etc can chase her too??? do you know how that’s going to look before a judge??? no one owes you anything online. she does not have to answer your questions because you want her to. Just let this woman be and as far as your blog being gone just charge it to the game
    ==============================================

    ReplyDelete
  50. “These guys that have a sense of entitlement are Nice Guys”

    The biggest offenders of having poisoned senses of entitlement are women

    Many expect to be paid for on dates and/or have the princess attitude which gives them the mentality to only settle for an above average guy when they are just simply the average jackass Jane next door themselves.

    Many women these days believe just owning a pussy and having a nice set of legs makes them this instant winning prize. While on the contrary, they complain about being objectified and only liked because of their looks.

    There are women everywhere who are no better than the next woman I walk past on the street and yet, they claim that they want a quality guy who is different/better from most.

    The princess entitlement attitude is rampant

    ReplyDelete
  51. Ahem: "allegedly" she's talking about her own personal experience dealing with guys.

    That is no proof she is an actual woman.

    Could be troll - and who knows if it is then a man or a woman.

    ReplyDelete
  52. @nicko81m
    "Many women these days believe just owning a pussy and having a nice set of legs makes them this instant winning prize. While on the contrary, they complain about being objectified and only liked because of their looks."

    Are you basing this on emprical evidence? Have you ever actually spoken to a woman?

    ReplyDelete
  53. Yes, expecting a male to have a job is just a rampant sense of entitlement. Expecting a male who has asked a woman out on a date to pay for the date is a sense of entitlement. Expecting a man to put some effort into looking presentable like she has is a sense of entitlement.

    Instead, she should be grateful for his deigning to let her earn an income that pays for his dinner while maintaining a perfect 36-24-36 body to his five two 250lb wheezy frame.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @nicko81m

    "The biggest offenders of having poisoned senses of entitlement are women"

    HAH! As if you don't go around demanding a woman cook you dinner, clean your house, have your babies, be thin and gorgeous all the time (even if you're out-of-shape and don't put any effort into your appearance), do whatever sexual thing you want, and devote herself to you.

    Yea some women are demanding princesses. Just like some men are misogynists. I don't think either is the majority that you claim it to be.

    Get a grip dude, you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Scarecrow, how do I know you're a man? Or even human at all?

    The point of my post is that *someone* -- it doesn't matter if they are male or female or a trained chimpanzee -- posted a comment that suggested merely that women sometimes have good reasons to "flake," and this mild and, er, true statement encouraged dozens of Spearhead users to downvote her/him/whoever.

    ReplyDelete
  56. It's common for these guys to accuse people that disagree with them to be troll. Citizen Renegade do it constantly. Commentators of Lady Raines's blog (including me) have been accused of being trolls by guys from the manosphere. As an example, there is blog called hookingupsmart (http://www.hookingupsmart.com/) that is supposed to be about dating but in fact is full of angry guys from the manosphere. I commented there a few times and I was accused of being a troll and a woman.

    I think David should add hookingupsmart to his boobroll

    ReplyDelete
  57. I *love* Heartless Bitches! They helped me really grok what a Nice Guy is, and taught me how to take pride in a life lived for myself.

    ReplyDelete
  58. The idea that men are entitled to women is widespread in the manosphere. Inmalafide said that George Sodini was right to feel entitled to have a woman : http://www.inmalafide.com/2009/08/06/george-sodini-and-the-contract-between-the-sexes/

    It's because of their sense of entitlement that these guys harass female bloggers.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Arrr you femitwits crack me up.

    Feminists always totally ignore female entitlement or pretend it doesn't exist.

    switchintoglide said:
    "Are you basing this on emprical evidence?"

    Asking many women what they look for is enough evidence. And it's fairly common to hear a woman say "its hard to find a decent single man" while they are just simply average women themselves who are most probably no better than the next woman I walk past on the street. Many women do truly believe they are an instant winning prize as they usually only want a man above the norm.

    keiko44 said:
    "As if you don't go around demanding a woman cook you dinner, clean your house, have your babies, be thin and gorgeous all the time (even if you're out-of-shape and don't put any effort into your appearance), do whatever sexual thing you want, and devote herself to you."

    The only men at this day and age in western society who expect women to cook dinner, clean the house etc are the women who sit around and watch Oprah shows and have tea parties while spending the hard earned dollars the husband worked his butt off for. Fair is fair. If a woman doesn't like that lifestyle, stop whining and get a bloody job! That way the man will be willing to do half the work around the house. It’s really that simple.

    "you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems."

    I find it impossible to blame myself when comparing myself to these certain women who simply want someone who is offering more than her as a person. The only way to impress many women these days is if you are offering better than her.

    It is a trend that women these days truly believe they are above men. Its obvious chauvinism and the fact that its chauvinism gets pulled under the rug for poor sensitive women who can't handle the truth. That's political correctness for you.

    Most of the time, women expressing that they are not easy is usually a mutated mentality of thinking they are worth more than most of the male population. Not being easy is one thing and its perfectly fine to be that way. But to think you are better than most of the male population and believe you are an instant winning prize is another thing altogether.

    Ya think I am a misogynist? Lolz The accusation of misogyny gets thrown around so very easy.

    A large number of women are doing something unfair - a man complains about that, and that equals misogyny in a political correct view.

    There is no doubt in my mind that women are the favoured gender in 2011 as the political correct argument is that its taboo to express the true colours of a large percentage of women. While on the other hand, men can be bashed 24/7 such as having a feminist movement. It's ironically funny when feminist claim women to be the second class citizens heh

    ReplyDelete
  60. Here's an example of the princess culture these days. Women are raised to expect high standards

    http://current.com/16o064c

    ReplyDelete
  61. It would sound better coming from someone who is not the author of a book on getting one's husband's ahead.

    By the way, most little girls like to dress up as princesses. That does not make them feel entitled when they grow up to be princesses or act as if they are entitled to special treatment since Mom and Dad got them some kind of princess tiara as a kid.

    ReplyDelete
  62. @David,

    "Joe, weirdly, Scarecrow now claims that he was trolling me with that post on Deborah Flores-Narvaez. (Though of course my post was also based on 3 other posts by him that were equally creepy.)"

    I noticed that post he wrote too. It was really bizarre.

    ReplyDelete
  63. keiko44...you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems

    This is true also for women. Women would be happier, if they stop blaming men for all their problems and their own shortcomings.

    Women are claiming to be so unhappy because men have so many privileges. But no woman could ever explain me what my privileges might be.

    Even to mention that my privileges might not exist makes me a misogynist... waahhhh....

    ReplyDelete
  64. Elizabeth, exactly. I am wearing my tiara right now and I don't think it makes me stuck up at all.

    ReplyDelete
  65. keiko44...you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems

    Heh ironic coming from a feminist when talking about blaming someone else for your problems

    Feminism needs to stop blaming men for why women are not in high status careers. Feminists commonly use men as a scapegoat to hold blame for women's failures.

    ReplyDelete
  66. "Many women these days believe just owning a pussy and having a nice set of legs makes them this instant winning prize."

    AHEM. I'm pretty sure it's my culinary and blow job skills that make me a prize.

    How fucking weird is it to talk about "owning" a pussy? As if it were alienable.

    ReplyDelete
  67. nicko81m:

    Heavy women with average looks need love, too. Why do you put yourself above them?

    ReplyDelete
  68. I always pick the comment threads that get supra derailed to snipe in. Damn that having a real life shit!

    ReplyDelete
  69. Ah, DeeZee with evopsych bullshit that does not even fit with anthropology or history. At least one of my ancestrial lines for certain was matrilineal pre-European colonization. Women owned almost all property and controlled almost all wealth. Passivity was not expected, at least not from the women who were the family heads. Men were expected to take part in the caretaking of children. Marriages were not temporary and easily disolved, polygamy was not unheard of, and birth of children outside of these marriages was not considered bad. Your entire example does nothing but pretend like social standards from modern, western, Christian patriarchies are 'natural' due to some sort of biological determinism, even when it flies in the face of the actual diversity of human cultures and even the histories of the cultures from which the modern ones sprung. For example, the notion of 'savages' is imperialist in and of itself (so say I, the descendent of peoples routinely called savages). There is no real evidence that an increase in technology reduces likelihood to violence. It is, in fact, well armed and organized groups who have historically done the largest amounts of slaughter. It isn't really 'random tiny bronze age level tribe over the hill' that is the really big threat, it is "Romans with years of fighting experience and training marching upon you in perfect phalanx". And, if you want to look at genetic lines, mitochondrial DNA lines (only inherited from the mother) cover larger areas of terrain, even though Y lines (male only) tend to have higher numbers. Which really doesn't mesh well with your 'men are the only explorers' line. So stop trying to just make up whatever bullshit fits your sexist stereotyping and pretending like it is fact.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Edit "Marriages were not temporary" should be "marriages were temporary".

    ReplyDelete
  71. "you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems."

    You know what? You're absolutely right.
    Blaming women for feminism, female entitlement, etc. is like blaming the rain for a leaky roof.

    We civilized, soft, sensitive men created that roof. And now we're paying the price for it.

    ReplyDelete
  72. switchintoglide said...
    @nicko81m
    'Many women these days believe just owning a pussy and having a nice set of legs makes them this instant winning prize. While on the contrary, they complain about being objectified and only liked because of their looks.'

    Are you basing this on emprical evidence? Have you ever actually spoken to a woman?

    January 24, 2011 7:58 PM


    What should this nonsense talk, switchintoglide?

    For sure, a good-looking woman has a much easier life than any ordinary man.

    For this we need no empirical evidence.

    A pretty young woman is never lonely, never out of money, has no problem to find a considerable number of men, who will offer accomodation, car, travels and otherwise support.

    Of course men are looking after her all the time, but how can this disturb her?

    Your problem is obviously that you want both.

    Men should not look after women, but they should always pay and pay and pay with nothing in return....

    Well you cannot have it both... sorry.

    Any woman has the better life, as men are looking after her and you need not do anything about it as a female. Just waiting and see who is showing up.

    It's much harder for most ordinary men, believe me. Men cannot expect to be supported by females.

    No pretty female ever showed up in my life and told me hey, nice man, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me...

    ReplyDelete
  73. I have no idea if I speak for anyone else here. Probably not, as I am much too politically incorrect and libertarian to ever be considered a feminist male. I dislike earnestness in all its forms, consider affirmative action to be the work of the devil, and make no apologies whatsoever for finding Natalie Portman more attractive than Queen Latifah. I do not despise my natural male urges, desires and biology, and it will be a snowy day in hell before I sit down to piss as opposed to using a urinal.

    What I deeply despise are delusional cretins who – when God was handing out the basic self-knowledge – were queuing up for third helpings of whiny self-pitying bitterness. This particular demographic is represented in all sections of society without exception.
    But from everything I have read and seen, it is quite extraordinarily over-represented in the men’s rights movement.

    On the subject of nondescript women being ridiculously entitled in the dating sphere (and once more, I speak for nobody but myself here). I know perfectly well that there are many extremely plain and unexceptional women who mysteriously believe themselves entitled to a Simon Cowell or a George Clooney.

    However, this does not change the fact that there are also many extremely plain and unexceptional – also socially maladroit, obsessively misogynistic and blood-curdlingly disturbing – men who believe they are entitled to a Scarlett Johanssen.

    As so often, the Onion says it best.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-woman-refuse-to-lower-standards-for-each-other,1492/

    And unlike the plain delusional women - who will generally seek solace in Haagen Dazs and ghastly Jennifer Aniston films when rebuffed - the plain delusional men will often become extremely vicious and disturbing when they fail to acquire their very own Playboy-worthy uberbabe.

    The MRA appear to believe that any man who disagrees with them is a cringing, brainwashed eunuch who naively thinks all women are perfect goddesses to be worshipped. I unambiguously do not believe this.

    In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools.
    Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics.

    This is why I dislike the MRA movement, the Spearhead, and the self-styled-guru likes of Roissy and Roosh. They think the women are always ‘the bad guys.’ They’re not.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Yohan, can you find me one woman posting here - or, hey, anywhere - who thinks that 'Men should not look after women, but they should always pay and pay and pay with nothing in return'?

    There are some women who are shallow gold-diggers. (I've never met any personally, but I can believe they're out there.)

    There are some other women - many, many women, most women - who don't go into relationships to get money and cars. I've never heard a man say 'hey, nice woman, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me...', and I'd find it a bit creepy and weird if he did - I have my own good income, and my own house, and if I wanted a decent car I'd go and buy one myself, thanks. That's not what I want in a relationship. That's not what most of us want in a relationship. (If you find this hard to believe, you might want to try listening to what women actually say, rather than what men tell you about what women say.)

    It's irrational to assume that if some women think A, and other women think B, then all women simultaneously think A and B and want it both ways. We're not the Borg, dude.

    ReplyDelete
  75. citizenlemonade
    "In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools.
    Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics."

    All very true. But maybe that isn't really the point. Have you considered the possibility that it's not really about 'good' vs. 'evil' but instead their evil vs. our evil?

    ReplyDelete
  76. "It's irrational to assume that if some women think A, and other women think B, then all women simultaneously think A and B and want it both ways."

    It's irrational to assume that if some women prefer anal sex and other women prefer vaginal sex then all women want it both ways simultaneously.

    Had to do it.
    lol

    ReplyDelete
  77. Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics.

    This is why I dislike the MRA movement, the Spearhead, and the self-styled-guru likes of Roissy and Roosh. They think the women are always ‘the bad guys.’ They’re not.


    I think that there are many, men and women, who hold the same humble opinion as yourself. Hell, I even think that we do each other great injustice by calling ourselves "opposite sexes", we're NOT polar opposites; which is NOT to say that we're identical, either. The issues that I have with MRAs includes just THAT, their dichotomous (and often contradictory) trains of thought.

    ReplyDelete
  78. citizenlemonade said... In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools.
    Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics.

    This is why I dislike the MRA movement...


    OK, this is a very interesting statement, you explain to all of us that there are MANY bad women and MANY bad men, but it seems you dislike ONLY the MRA movement and not feminism.

    Somewhat single-sided opinion...isn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  79. No pretty female ever showed up in my life and told me hey, nice man, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me...

    Just hazarding a guess here, but perhaps the pretty females who have a house, car, good income, etc., aren't looking for a man who is a "traditionalist" or a patriarch, but, rather, one who will view them as a companion.....an equal partner.

    ReplyDelete
  80. evilmalewhiteempire:

    If it’s not about ‘good versus evil but instead about ‘their evil versus our evil’ - then I quite agree that there would be an interesting debate to have along these lines.

    As I said, I am not the most politically correct of men. And I quite agree that – painting in the broadest and most general strokes – women and men both have separate areas in which they outdo the other in evil. As any high school teacher will tell you, the vast majority of severe physical violence is the province of boys. The vast majority of long-term emotional and psychological germ warfare is the province of girls.

    But it would be impossible to have this sort of debate with the vast majority of MRAs I have come across. For here, I run into another major issue I have with – not all, but many – MRA types. Who will furiously and blindly deny that their side is anything less than blameless, put-upon and heroic at all times.

    If a woman chooses a bad man, it’s because she’s a hypergamous bitch. If a man chooses a bad woman, it’s because he’s been duped by a hypergamous bitch. If a man abuses, lies to and deceives a woman, it’s high five, player. If a woman abuses, lies to and deceives a man, it’s burn the evil whoring slut at the stake.

    If a man follows his basic and brutal Darwinian nature to attract the youngest and most beautiful woman, he is a master of Game and a legend. If a woman follows her basic and brutal Darwinian nature to attract the richest and most powerful man, she is a hateful piece of trash.

    I simply cannot engage with people who have such ridiculous double standards and are so abjectly blind to their own shortcomings. As I have said before, some women are frankly scum. As are some men. But those last four words represent an admission that you will never find on any MRA-friendly blog in the world.

    In terms of comparing the genders’ good and bad points… in the MRA, I see an obsessive and endless focus on masculinity’s (highly generalized and in no way all-encompassing) good traits, combined with a complete and dangerous blindness to its less savoury ones. You cannot have it both ways

    For example, if you wish to preen about your gender’s superior size, strength and physical fortitude, you cannot then claim that you are exactly as physically threatened by the prospect of domestic violence as those fragile little ladies you were recently dismissing as too weak and wimpish to serve in the police force. Or do anything more physically taxing than making you a cup of tea.

    But perhaps we will never agree. I don’t think of myself as a feminist. Simply a humanist and a realist. Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end.

    Yohan:

    I am sorry to hear you think my dislike is one-sided. On the contrary, I dislike all selfish vindictive self-aggrandising bullies consumed with bitterness, violent fantasies of control and humiliation, and obsession with denying the basic humanity of others.

    Please direct me to a feminist blog where feminist commentators openly gloat about destroying men’s self-esteem, share the joys of deliberately using and abusing them wherever possible, laughingly objectify them as good for only one thing, and delight in the prospect of their desperate washed-up old age once they have served their dumpster-like purpose.

    If you could provide me with the address of such a site, I solemnly swear I will say exactly the same things to them, and with exactly as much heartfelt contempt as I have shown towards your MRA ilk. That is a promise.

    ReplyDelete
  81. I'm a fat and ugly woman. I've been told that I need to lower my standards. I've had guys tell me that I'm a bitch because I won't date them. That because I'm fat and ugly I should be thankful for anything that comes along.

    Here's the thing- even though I'm unattractive I also have a full life. I volunteer at a historical movie house giving tours. I go to museums. I am going to school and working. If I'm going to give up some of my time to start a relationship I expect the other person to be more fun and interesting than whatever I could be doing by myself.

    Most men (especially the ones who would lower themselves to be interested in someone who looks like me) aren't. They are entitled. They complain all the time. They have no passions or interests. Many of them are unemployed or have never worked more than a part time job. That isn't important because I'm a gold digger. It's important because people need to contribute something to the world.

    When one of these guys ask me out and I decline they get upset. I'm sure they probably tell their friends that I'm a princess or a brat. They might think that I'm holding out for an alpha male. I'm not. I'm holding out for myself. I'd rather take the energy that I'd spend in a relationship and dedicate it to things I care about. There is nothing enjoyable about spending time with someone who is dull and uninteresting just so that you aren't alone.

    ReplyDelete
  82. @DarkSideCat

    If you don't mind me asking, are you Haudenosaunee (Iroquois)?

    ReplyDelete
  83. missy, exactly. What I see with women is that they don't want the alcoholic, or the dumb male. Or you're just on such a different intellectual plane that you would be unhappy. The "standards" conversation is again an apples and oranges conversation between the genders in my experience and lemonade dude posted an onion article that does not at all represent what really happens.

    They left out the part where the guy is a raging alcoholic that doesn't even really like women, doesn't understand them and expects them to be a certain way, very limited.

    When men won't "lower" their standards, they most of the time are openly admitting it's as deep as "no fat chicks"

    Then they get the bright idea, that HEY wow, I've been a fool, I'll go for one of these and they will be desperate. Ok that might work, but not if you're really dumb and they are different.

    I haven't had men mad at me for turning them down, most guys just shuffle on. There's plenty out there. I am getting married after a loooooong time being single, and it boils down to "no jerks around the kids" and now I'm almost forty and know a good man when I meet one, so this is awesome. And this guy is actually one of those "nice guys" that these guys claim to be, too. But that's all I ought to say on the internet.

    ReplyDelete
  84. citizenlemonade said...

    If a woman chooses a bad man, it’s because she’s a hypergamous bitch. If a man chooses a bad woman, it’s because he’s been duped by a hypergamous bitch.
    .....
    I simply cannot engage with people who have such ridiculous double standards .....


    The situation is not so balanced as you try to present it.

    How can a simple man 'choose' a Western woman?
    Look around and you will see, that young men outnumber young women in the dating scene 6:1 or so.

    Women have the choice to select among many men, and frequently are giving their preference to men who are either rich playboys promising love-for-always-BS and have plenty of women running after them all the time or they are choosing thug-boys, as ordinary men are just too boring for them.

    There are plenty of 'just ordinary' men, who despite long working hours and without a criminal record are neither thugs nor rich playboys - but they are never considered even for a friendly talk or for sharing a few nice hours.

    To blame these men with feminist shaming language is exactly what we MRAs strongly reject.

    The choice is with the woman and I can only advice her to choose more carefully among all these men around her using other criterias for her decision.

    Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end.

    Unfortunately it's not 'the end' - at least not for these many men who were badly cheated by malicious women.

    Not only were these men cheated, but because of single-sided law execution, they have to pay the bill. Often over decades. -

    Women do not have this risk. No obligations whatever.

    If women do not want to continue a relationship, they move on - easy - to the next man... as you said, the end or better, next please...


    About websites considering truly everything to be bad regarding men's rights, what about reading through all these threads of this David's blog?

    David's menboobz-blog is an entire scornful spoof about all and everything which you might consider as MRA-related issues.

    ReplyDelete
  85. missyb9479 said...
    I'm a fat and ugly woman. (WHY?)

    I've been told that I need to lower my standards. (WHY?)

    I've had guys tell me that I'm a bitch because I won't date them. That because I'm fat and ugly I should be thankful for anything that comes along.


    Why to lower your standards? Why do you not try to improve yourself?

    You are not far away from that, let me say as you are openly admitting, that you are 'fat and ugly'.

    Do you enjoy your present appearance? Not really it seems to me when reading your comment.

    So, why are you not doing anything to improve your own looks? It is not difficult for a woman to improve her figure and her looks, if she really wants to do that.

    There is plenty of beauty/health care + advice for women available if you really want to do something about yourself. -

    Unfortunately for men who want to improve their health and looks, that's a different story.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Men can't improve their health and looks? Are feminists stopping them
    for doing that too?
    Go to the gym, stop smoking and drinking, eat better.

    Done. Read Men's Health if you need motivation.

    ReplyDelete
  87. @yohan,

    "There is plenty of beauty/health care + advice for women available if you really want to do something about yourself. -
    Unfortunately for men who want to improve their health and looks, that's a different story."

    That is just ridiculous nonsense. I can't even believe someone would try to use this to try to gain sympathy for men as the poor victims of EVERYTHING. LMAO!

    Yohan...if someone doesn't allow you to access the many available resources for men's health and looks, that would be a problem in your personal life and not a problem that ALL women have caused you.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Yohan, missyb9479 has found someone who likes her even without changing the way she looks or how much she weighs.

    She can be relatively sure that this guy won't decide in two years that she's gotten fat and ugly and that was all he cared about and he's leaving now.

    Why should she change to attract more men if she's found one? Fat is just fat. Maybe she's okay with it.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Yep. When I was single, super models wouldn't date me either. It was totally unfair. I blame feminism.

    Seriously, though, being single and feeling undesirable totally sucks, whether you're male or female. I get that. I spent a lot of time in that space myself--years, in fact. And, yes, I descended briefly into bitterness at womankind for not appreciating the awesomeness that was me. The fact is, a lot of women are shallow, stupid, and neurotic--as are a lot of men. Finding someone to share your life with is hard, frustrating, lonely work. Maintaining a relationship can be just as hard. There really aren't any shortcuts here.

    But I'll tell you one thing that absolutely will not work: blaming someone else for your troubles. Seriously, get over that shit right now, or you will be alone, and miserable, forever.

    Yeah, I know, feminists do it all the time, western women, blah, blah, blah... Even if that's true, who the fuck cares? You are ultimately responsible for your own life. If you don't like it, do something about it. Look inside yourself, take inventory, ruthlessly evaluate your strengths and weaknesses, go the therapy, try to improve yourself--whatever it takes, as long as you're not hurting anyone else. But whining on the internet about how unfair it all is will get you exactly nowhere.

    ReplyDelete
  90. hahaha did anyone else notice this...?

    "an apples and oranges conversation between the genders in my experience and lemonade dude posted an onion article"

    haha, I did that and didn't notice.

    I'm not fat by the way.

    ReplyDelete
  91. I am still single. But I've had relationships with various degrees of success. Like most people. But I am happy with myself and have no real need to change.

    The fat and ugly terms are things I've been told by men. Usually right before they tell me how I could be pretty if I only lose weight, wear heels, dye my hair, wear more makeup (or less makeup). In other words, I'd be acceptable if I could just be someone else.

    I spent many years of my life trying to attain this. Now I've accepted the fat and ugly labels because it makes my life easier. If I posted a picture I suspect half the people would agree with those labels and half wouldn't. Because they really are meaningless terms. Ones that get thrown around to degrade women by making it seem as their bodies are the only important thing about them.

    My reason for posting this wasn't to get into a debate over my own looks. It was to point out what was on the other side of these MRA rantings. I've been the girl that these guys talk about when they talk about fat princesses who reject them. I wanted to point out that women like me aren't rejecting them because we are heartless evil creatures. We just have better things to do with our time.

    The fact that Yohan thinks that women have a chance for growth while men don't is one of the most telling things I've ever seen. Insight into the mind of an MRA. Women have all the power and men are helpless. At least in their own minds.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Captain Bathrobe said...
    "nicko81m:

    Heavy women with average looks need love, too. Why do you put yourself above them?"

    Why don't you date them? You have no room to talk if you shun or ignore them.

    ReplyDelete
  93. @wytch

    "Captain Bathrobe said...
    "nicko81m:

    Heavy women with average looks need love, too. Why do you put yourself above them?"

    Why don't you date them? You have no room to talk if you shun or ignore them."

    That gives me room to talk (given my dating history), and I agree with @cb.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Wytch:

    Because my wife might object. She's funny like that.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Seriously, though, the point was that both men and women have standards about whom they wish to date. Nothing wrong with that. We may not like their standards, may not agree with them, may think they are silly and superficial, but everyone has the right to have them. Nick was complaining how "unfair" it is that women only want to date men who are "above" them (a group that presumably doesn't include him). My point is that "fair" doesn't enter into it. Nick (apparently) wants a certain type of woman. These women (apparently) do not want him. Sucks to be him, but no reasonable person would call this "unfair." It would only be unfair if men were the only one's allowed to have standards about whom they are attracted to--and that would be grossly unfair in and of itself.

    Nick is perfectly free to lower or change his standards; he's also free to try what he can to make himself a more attractive choice for a mate. What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet. I mean, whatever floats your boat; at least it keeps you off the streets. But I doubt it will accomplish much more than that.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Well as feminists/women constantly tell men to improve themselves if they want better women, I don't see the problem with men telling fat women to improve their weight if they want better men.

    It's a two way street.

    Captain Bathrobe
    "What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet."

    It always cracks me up how feminists in here try to twist our meanings into stuff balloon animals.

    Can you please point out where I exactly express that I want women to accept me as a sex partner against her will?

    Seriously, this accusation is hilariously ridiculous. It's just another poor straw man attempt to claim that women are being victimized ROFL

    This is no surprise from feminists

    ReplyDelete
  97. Also Captain Bathrobe; the whole point that you are simply missing here is that there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.

    These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses.

    These same women don't seem to be offering any more than most average women AND MEN. These same women don't seem to have any thing unique about them compared to most average women AND MEN.

    Yet, these same women claim that most of the male population are not decent enough for them.

    It's as clear as day of who has the problem here. It's definitely not most of these men. It's these women who ridiculously over price themselves. Just because they do get plenty of offers, it gives these women a big head and they get delusional grandeur over it.

    The reason why these women get plenty of offers is because many to most of the other women are practically doing the same, it’s a vicious cycle that keeps repeating it’s self. These women are waiting to find Mr Unique who is extra intelligent and interesting than most . But these women refuse to acknowledge what imagine/characteristics appears in the mirror. In many cases, Mr Unique does lower his standards for these plain average women as women in Mr Unique’s league have even more extreme standards than the average woman.

    I see so many women who express that in social gatherings a guy doesn't seem interesting and intelligent enough in conversations but these same women usually put in the same effort themselves or even a lot less.

    I also see many women on dating sites who claim that they are not interested in many men because their profiles and emails are not sparking and dynamic. Yet these same women have small profiles that are no where near original or show any form of above average intelligence. That said, nearly every woman who has sent the first email to me or have replied my emails have not made much effort in their emails. These same women will reject men for all the same things they are simply doing.

    The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy.

    That’s pretty much the story of a large percentage of western women these days. They live off this huge senses of entitlement and many to most times they finally get these entitlements that they really don’t deserve.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Hahaha Nick,

    Bathrobe: "What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet."

    Nick: I don't do this!

    Nick five minutes later: Women over price themselves! I hate it! Whine!

    ReplyDelete
  99. "Nick five minutes later: Women over price themselves! I hate it! Whine!"

    Yes, Sandy. Just because a woman has a pussy and a nice looking face, it doesn't make her a jackpot :P

    When it comes to gender issues, as political correctness always swings in favour of the fanny, this side of the story is taboo to mention. The PC people in this department will simply scoff at these truths that are obvious and right in your face

    ReplyDelete
  100. "That’s pretty much the story of a large percentage of western women these days. They live off this huge senses of entitlement and many to most times they finally get these entitlements that they really don’t deserve."

    If they don't deserve it then how did they get it? In a free market of relationships, the price they get *is* their worth, by definition.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Nick,

    My apologies. I didn't meant to accuse you of forcing--or wanting to force--anyone to do anything. I was speaking--what's the word?--hypothetically. Just as you hypothetically have the right to lower your standards or improve yourself, you do not (hypothetically again) have the right to force someone to have sex with you. I'm glad that you accept this hypothetical proposition, and that you do not wish to force women to have sex with you against their will. Good on you. In future, I will include the word "hypothetically" whenever I make such a statement, so that you are not confused by this obscure rhetorical device. I apologize if I was unclear.

    As Sandy pointed out, the only I intended to accuse you of was whining, which you continue to do. That's your right, just as it's my right to point it out--and just as it's the right of women (and men) to over-price themselves in the dating market.

    By the way, I don't deny that some women do this. My only response is "so what?" How does that hurt you? No one is obligating you (hypothetically) to date them. I mean, it's unfortunate that you (hypothetically, as I don't know this for sure)are not able to date the women of your choice, but surely the fact that you are (hypothetically) alone is not entirely the fault of overly choosy women? Do you not bear some small sliver of responsibility for your (hypothetical) predicament? Work with me here.

    All snark aside, you seem unhappy in your current situation and for that I have genuine empathy. Really. As I wrote upthread, I've been there before, and it's not fun. Accepting some measure of responsibility could be the first step up. The choice is yours. Just sayin.

    Also, if what I've said does not apply to you--and you are, in fact, happy as a clam--please disregard. Consider it all hypothetical.

    ReplyDelete
  102. "If they don't deserve it then how did they get it? In a free market of relationships, the price they get *is* their worth, by definition."

    How do they get it? Because plenty of men in any status are forced to drop their standards unless they are lucky.

    Men in general are the second class citizens in the dating pool. As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner.

    It's only politically incorrect when the criticism and fault finding is directed at women

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  103. Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.

    These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses.


    Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid.

    The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy.

    I sort of love the notion of a farting pedestal. Alas, this is a bit too long for a t-shirt.

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  104. "I see so many women who express that in social gatherings a guy doesn't seem interesting and intelligent enough in conversations but these same women usually put in the same effort themselves or even a lot less."

    So? I'm one of those women. I will not date a guy because they aren't interesting. I like to think that I am fun and interesting myself. That I'm worth waiting for that interesting guy. Maybe I'm not. But I'd rather be single than with someone who doesn't match that standard.

    "I also see many women on dating sites who claim that they are not interested in many men because their profiles and emails are not sparking and dynamic. Yet these same women have small profiles that are no where near original or show any form of above average intelligence. That said, nearly every woman who has sent the first email to me or have replied my emails have not made much effort in their emails. These same women will reject men for all the same things they are simply doing."

    Again, so? So what? Women who do that will remain single. If they are tired of being single they will change their standards.

    "The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy."

    No. Look, you could be talking about me in this statement. On dating sites I get more comments than I respond to. I have ignored guys because of lame first letters. It isn't because I think that my pussy gets me something. It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him.

    This is the big difference between most people and the MRAs. Most of us are single and we are okay with it. We'd rather be in a relationship but we don't feel as if we are entitled to them. If we ask someone out and get rejected we get bummed out and might bitch to our friends. We don't join a movement that degrades a whole gender and fights against equality.

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  105. "As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner."

    Speaking personally, I find whining to be equally unattractive in both men and women. I can't speak for others, however.

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  106. hahaha

    Nick: Avoids topic by claiming women have no value other than pussy/face.

    Man this guy is comedy gold.

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  107. "It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him."

    I think, missy, that you've hit on the essential prerequisite for having a successful dating and relationship experience: being completely, totally OK with being by yourself. Without that feeling, everything is driven by desperation, and bound to fail.

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  108. So make a picture of it David.

    Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?

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  109. "Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.

    These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses."

    If women do what you describe then the result is that they will continue to be alone, that's the punishment. And if they would prefer to be alone than date you, why would you want to date them anyway? In a way, they are doing you a favor by not wasting either of your time.

    If I ask a man out of coffee or whatever, and he's like, Thanks for asking but I'm gay, or I'm married, or I don't really like the cut of your jib, anger would not be a justified reaction. He hasn't done anything for me to be angry about.

    @citizenlemonade: What's wrong with earnestness?

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  110. Christine WE said...Yohan...if someone doesn't allow you to access the many available resources for men's health and looks, that would be a problem in your personal life and not a problem that ALL women have caused you.

    I did not say, it was caused by all women.

    But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only.
    Check out any department store what they offer for men and for women regarding clothings, shoes, cosmeticas etc. etc.

    The other point is about the TIME. If you work about 60 hours per week, what can you do about yourself? And feminist-minded housewife is even expecting the husband to go home immediately and to start with housework.

    Finally money is also a major point worth for discussion. Men are earning money not for themselves only, but in many cases their money is for alimony, child-support, debits left over for the legal fees after divorce etc. etc...

    In general, it's much easier for women to look after themselves than for men.

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  111. Captain Bathrobe said...
    ..... Nick is perfectly free to lower or change his standards; he's also free to try what he can to make himself a more attractive choice for a mate. What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you (rem. MRAs?) appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet.


    Feminists are talking to each other on the internet = female empowerment

    MRAs are talking to each other on the internet = whining

    While Nick is perfectly free to lower his standards (thank you so much Mr./Mrs. Feminist for allowing this), it seems he is not politically correct when he is talking about his issues with other men.

    MRAs are not whining on the internet, but we see no reason to remain silent either - we are doing something about our problems. How we are solving our problems is not the feminists' business.

    Why should we lower ourselves and our standards? Only because feminists are telling us all the time how useless we are?

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  112. David

    "Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid."

    This is true, however, a man is entitled to criticise something that he see's wrong. A man is simply entitled to disagree with how a woman thinks or believes in.

    As you were saying, "so what? How is this your business?"...the same can be said to feminists who criticise male sexuality on a constant basis which is a whole different story altogether.

    Elizabeth

    “Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?”

    There is a difference between having validated standards than there is to put a ridiculous price tag on your self.

    missyb9479

    The thing is that many women seem to think that they don't have to “try” (that much) to prove that they are extra interesting, extra intelligent etc etc compared to what they expect out of a man. They just think being a woman with average looks is solely all they need to do. Yet they will aggressively reject men with the same mentality they have themselves. In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it.

    All in all, the reason why I am making these criticisms is not because I am angry at being single, the simple fact is that I just call out on the BS I constantly see far too often.

    When ever a man makes these types of criticisms, there will always be people from the PC crowd who will come up with such shaming tactics towards the complainer such as “he’s just showing anger of being single” or “he’s complaining because he can’t get laid.”

    The simple fact is that there is a complaint because there is something legitimate to complain about.

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  113. Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only.

    So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed?

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  114. "In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it."

    No, it isn't.

    Let me see if I can explain this again. I know how interesting I am. I know what it is like spending a Friday night with myself. If you asked me on a date then you'd have to project an evening that is AT LEAST as much fun as I'd have by myself. Why go otherwise?

    Does that mean that I have to appear at least as interesting to you as you do to me? No. It's on the person asking the other person out to do the convincing. Male or female. If a girl is asking a guy out (BTW, this is one of the things feminism has done and continues to do - empower women to take the lead in courtship) then she should try and sell herself as best she can. If he isn't interested that's okay. She shouldn't get angry at him or at all men.

    I'll go one step more. If a female co-worker asked me to go out to lunch, as a friend, I might reject them if I didn't think they were interesting enough. It isn't sexism at all. It's human nature to only want to spend time with people who are fun and interesting. This is subjective. I don't know why you think this common human thing is so wrong. If a guy asked you out (just to hang out) but he didn't seem very interesting, would you hang out with him? Do you have a duty to do so just because you're equally uninteresting?

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  115. @ Elizabeth:

    Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick.

    @ Missy:

    You actually sound like a lot of fun!

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  116. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  117. Missy:

    FWIW, my wife actually asked me out on our first date--and paid for dinner. Yay feminism!

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  118. Lady Victoria von Syrus

    "Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick."

    I am sorry that your comprehension skills towards my opinion in is seriously lacks knowledge to what I exactly mean.

    But of course, you are a feminist bigot. This repsonse is pretty typical

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  119. Yohan – we may never agree. Possibly we may live in differently structured societies. The world I inhabit – a large city, the UK, socio-economically above average but far from elite – bears no resemblance whatsoever to the world you seem to live in. The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous. As does the concept that ordinary men cannot attract ordinary women, as the ordinary women are feverishly chasing after debonair yacht-owning billionaires and snarling Harley-driving clones of the young Marlon Brando.

    Every single reasonably eligible man of my acquaintance has had absolutely no trouble attracting a normal woman for a long-term partner. The caveat is that these normal women are not, by any stretch of the imagination, devastatingly beautiful Hollywood goddesses. They are, quite simply, normal women.

    I do not know, and have never known, any normal women whatsoever who spurn normal men as sexual partners or other halves. The allegedly ‘normal men’ I have known who claim this is the case generally have not been ‘normal men’ at all, but have had something fairly serious wrong with them - such as an alarming nervous tic, an amusing lisp or a pungent reek of urine. By aiming for a plain jane girl-next-door type, they are aiming significantly out of their league.

    Ironically, they would be ashamed to be seen out in public with any women who would plausibly give them the time of day without requiring payment.

    If all the women you know are chasing tycoons and muscle-bound thugs, you are mixing with altogether too many shallow, vapid, mercenary glamour models and table dancers, who would not give you the time of day unless you won the lottery. And are, if I may cast aspersions, very obviously members of the world’s oldest profession.

    Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs where you are quite pathetically out of place, and fish in a pool where you have more chance of catching something other than chlamydia. Meet some normal women who may be interested in a relationship with a normal man like yourself. Tragically, you probably will not find them attractive enough to pursue. Watch the first ten minutes of Shallow Hal and weep. His tragedy is your own.

    You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. Some men will callously desert their loving and bewildered dependents for another woman, will manage to conceal their assets with devious expertise, and will leave their erstwhile family to struggle by on a pittance while they take Wife 2 shopping in Christian Dior.

    Meanwhile, some women will manage to take their equally loving and bewildered husbands for every penny they can squeeze out of him, and leave him in penury working round the clock to provide for their lazy parasitical selves and their bastard spawn.

    I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman. I have met some divorced single mothers whose lives are a living hell of expensive childcare, irregular maintenance payments that barely covered the bills, and juggling two jobs to keep food on the table. As with so many issues, the outcomes of divorce are not as cut-and-dried as you MRAs seem to believe. To put it bluntly, in some cases, the man gets well and truly shafted. In some other cases, the woman does.

    Again, perhaps I have been fortunate in life, and perhaps the legal system and socio-sexual norms simply work differently in this country. If this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit.

    The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all.

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  120. FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies.

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  121. David Futrelle said...
    Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only.

    So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed?


    I said, it is much more difficult for men to use frequently the beauty/healthcare consumer market compared to women.

    Not enough time and not enough money play a major role, it is not because men do not want to take care of their own health and looks.

    If 80 percent of certain goods/services are produced/offered for women only - and men are widely ignored as possible consumers, it shows clearly that health/beauty business is a lucrative market mainly with female customers and not with male customers.

    Women earn so much less than men, I wonder how they pay for all this expensive stuff related to female beauty/health/fashion?

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  122. citizenlemonade said...
    ..... Yohan – we may never agree.

    ..... The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous.
    .....
    Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs
    .....
    Meet some normal women ....

    You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels,
    .....
    I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman.
    .....
    perhaps I have been fortunate in life

    If this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit.

    The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all.


    Thank you for your interesting and informative reply.

    Not all men do have the same life and opportunities, some are more happier than the others obviously, and maybe you are right, you are on the lucky side. We cannot choose our parents.

    There are 100000s of disappointed Western men, who are not so lucky, you find them living overseas with foreign wives. The typical loser and his typical doormat in the stupid mindset of feminists.

    If you look up any internet dating service you will notice, that young men indeed outnumber young women 6:1 or even higher.

    Well, a man age 20, he can look for a girl about 20, but a young woman 20, can look for men at least up to 35 or 40...

    You mention you are living in a larger UK-city, but how would be the number of men:women in a rural area in UK? The same as in cities? I don't think so.

    Competition from older men is a serious problem for young men, who cannot offer much to a girl, tell me from where should they have all this money to pay for house, car, good life, travels etc. etc.? Young men can only do this with rich parents or as thugs who don't care about existing laws.

    About divorces, over 70 percent are requested by women and not by men. It's not 50/50 as you say.

    UK divorce laws are famous for being biased, with no pre-nups accepted.

    You did not mention in your reply that the financial risk is almost always with the man, hardly with the woman, especially in case of children.

    About myself I never met any Western woman in my life who did not demand money from me even for the smallest favor. I never visited night-clubs, btw. as I do not drink any alcohol, another reason to be a target of scorn by many Western females.

    I never met a woman who was truly a single and who had not a sexual relationship with several men at the same time and why should I line up, honestly?

    And if you ask me, where you can meet 'normal Western women' (what means 'normal women' for you, any definition for that?), I can only reply, after being married for over 35 years in Asia, that I have no idea and why shall I care.

    Btw., I was asking exactly the same question to many feminists. Where can I find a 'normal Western woman'? And not even one feminist could answer this question, but they continue explaining me something about my privileges. Which privileges? I don't see them. I never had any privilege because of my gender.

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  123. David Futrelle said...
    FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies. January 26, 2011 4:21 AM


    I am not from *Northern* Europe, David.
    You need only to look up my profil etc. on the NiceGuy-Forum which you are browsing all the time using a fake-ID.

    About fantasies, well, what do you know about me, David?

    My life as a child and young man in Europe was not a fantasy, but for real and harsh personal experience with truly bad women.

    If there is a person, living in a fantasy world, it's you, David.

    I see no reason why I should be silent about it. For what reason? Because feminism cannot be wrong? Because it's not politically correct to talk about it in our own forums?

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  124. I *HEART* citizenlemonade, especially this:

    "Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end."

    Bravo.

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  125. FWIW, I've met and dated wonderful women in both the US and in Japan. And I'm a complete and total nerd--not an alpha by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just not convinced that blaming a whole class of people for one's own misfortunes is really the way to go in life. But, whatever, your mileage may vary.

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  126. Also, I agree with citizenlemonade. Very well said, even if you are a libertarian. :)

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  127. nicko81m: "There is a difference between having validated standards than there is to put a ridiculous price tag on your self."

    You seem to think women should be "priced" on the market based on the value you'd put on them, rather than on the value they put on themselves.

    Women aren't objects. They have self-determination. Apparently many men have come to terms with this and "meet their price" because they find something in these women that you don't.

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  128. Lady Victoria-I think you did hit the nail on the head with that view of Nick's inexplicable hatred of a (in his view) plain Jane having standards as to who she will consent to go on a date with.

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  129. "Women aren't objects. They have self-determination. Apparently many men have come to terms with this and "meet their price" because they find something in these women that you don't."

    I agree that women are not objects. On the other hand, the woman next door is not better than most of the male population.

    It's funny how feminists can't see that women are more valued than men in the dating market. Yet, feminists don’t want to know anything about this. It's only important when women are being treated as lesser human beings in some situation. Men are the second class citizens in the dating world. But feminists will deny that to the end as they are too bigoted to see past their own agenda

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  130. Nick: "wah! I cannot get a date because some woman has a standard that is not me! wah!"

    I have a box of tissues and some ice cream, here ya go!

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  131. nicko81m said... Men are the second class citizens in the dating world

    Not only in the Western dating world. Men are generally considered to be 2nd class citizens at any time and under any circumstances in all Western feminist countries - 2nd class as boys, as students, as singles, as married men, as men after divorce, as fathers, as being homeless, jobless, sick, in jail...always.

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