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| The Ideal Woman, apparently. |
Anyway, over at A Voice For Men, MRA elder Paul Elam doesn't really give a shit about what women want. But he knows what they deserve, and what they don't deserve. Which turns out to be shovels and love, respectively. As he explains in a recent comment:
We don’t need to teach young girls to marry for love; we need to put shovels in their hands and put them to work in ditches, digging their way to self sufficiency. We need to leave them to their own survival devices so that they can learn some humility ...
But what we most need to teach young girls is that until there are social pressures established that place firm boundaries and limits on their hypergamous instincts, that they cannot be trusted with love, as women in this culture have been proving for 50 years ... .
Keep shoveling, Paul.
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I keep thinking of philosophers back in the old days who debated on things like if women could have souls or brains or the ability to anything more than churn out babies and butter.
ReplyDeletePart of that was the assumption that women were of a lower level then men and that their hotblooded bodies were unable to restrain from boinking anything. So best to lock them up in marriages lest they go crazy.
Basically these guys are saying the same thing that was said back in 400 BCE about women. One would think these guys would have caught on to that but nope.
Elizabeth, I recently read two histories of misogyny, and I was constantly running into the exact same exact "arguments' that misogynists make today. Practically the only original thing these guys talk about now is robot ladies.
ReplyDeleteThey seem to assume that if only women would just shut up, look pretty and do exactly as they want, life would be perfect.
ReplyDeleteI think we should do a WGTOW movement and leave these guys behind. Somehow, I doubt that a society that women run is going to be the nightmare that these men think it will be.
You know who else said to his enemies "work will make you free...?"
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though, it reads like a decree from the days of Stalinism or the Cultural Revolution: enemies of the people shall be put to work until they are re-educated.
It always bothers me when they talk about children.
ReplyDeleteI mean, if all they want to do is teach girls to be self-sufficient, then I'm all for it. It's the punitive labor-camp vibe that creeps me out.
ReplyDeleteDavid, what were these histories? I am intrigued by them!
ReplyDeleteAnd this post reminds me of an old family story, whereby the patriarch would take his kids out into the backyard, make them dig a 5x5x5 hole and then fill it back in. This was somehow supposed to teach them the value of work. Oh, and they weren't allowed to eat until they were done.
But you know, I am totally on Elam's side when it comes to empowering women to achieve their own careers and independence!
Basically these guys are saying the same thing that was said back in 400 BCE about women. One would think these guys would have caught on to that but nope.
ReplyDeleteAt least some of them have. I remember one MRA--think he goes by the name of "Hollenhund"--saying something along the lines of "the ancient Romans realized how stupid women were. Who are we to think we know better than Cicero, Cato, etc. etc. etc."
That said, I'm not much of an expert on Roman history or politics, so I'm actually not sure what their attitudes towards women precisely were...maybe they weren't as misogynistic as they're made out to be (or Hund would like them to be).
"they cannot be trusted with love"
ReplyDeleteThe way that you're having that feeling, in your head, is wrong! You're feeling incorrectly! Start feeling the way I tell you to feel or you won't get to feel at all; your emoting privileges will be revoked! Or something.
On one hand they were terrible for women. On the other hand they were very liberated.
ReplyDeleteAn example: divorce was a lot easier on the women but if they were raped, they were supposed to kill themselves.
hm... does this mean that my own feelings don't count? Because I'm pretty much the opposite of hypergamous...
ReplyDeleteOh Paul! You came so close with that "self sufficiency" line, and then you went all Malleus Maleficarum on us.
ReplyDeleteLady Victoria: butting in to recommend Misogyny: The World's Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland. It’s got an especially interesting last chapter where the (male) author summarizes, and describes the experience of writing about misogyny as a man. It’s not heavy reading, but it’s good.
Elam wants women to be more "humble" (read: less uppity), and he thinks work and self-sufficiency is the way to do that. Here's my question to Elam: What the fuck? The reason women are "uppity" today is because they're allowed to work and be self-sufficient. The more they work for themselves the more they'll be convinced that they're fully worthy human beings with a right to self-determination.
ReplyDeleteAnd in Elam's twisted mind, women shouldn't think such things because it's insufficiently humble of them.
I'll definitely look up Misogyny: The World's Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland per bathorie'sr recommendation, but I'm also interested in knowing what books you're referring to, David. I'm currently looking for some new nonfiction to read.
Elam is confusing "self sufficiency" with "being enslaved".
ReplyDeleteHey Tri, and anyone else who's interested, one of the books I read was indeed Holland's book on misogyny.
ReplyDeleteThe other one is David Gilmore's Misogyny: The Male Malady.
Neither book is what you'd call great, but both are really useful. Of the two, I'd recommend Holland's book first. It gives a better historical overview and is better written.
Gilmore's book is a bit more scattershot; he jumps around from topic to topic seemingly at random, and tends to repeat himself. He does have a lot of examples, though, and a lot of anthropological data.
Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI must say, my good chap, this blog is starting to ripen past prime. Commenting on other people's comments could, for a while (I suppose) be entertaining. But, the monotony of the formula is getting old. Are you getting bored of the subject matter? Could you add some writing to your snark. I mean, you've published for some of the best periodicals and zines in the land. Could you take some poetic license to make your subject matter, not so mundane? kisses, ma99ie
ReplyDeleteI must say, Maggie, that I really have no interest in writing a blog that you personally would actually like. kisses, DF
ReplyDeleteHahaha. Magdelyn, maybe you can learn how to ask for things like a grown up.
ReplyDeleteIt is official, Aristole was an ass.
ReplyDeleteI must say, Maggie, that I really have no interest in writing a blog that you personally would actually like. kisses, DF
ReplyDeleteHey David, I think I would enjoy this blog more if you tattooed feminist poetry on your arms and posted pictures of it. Do this or you're a failure in my eyes.
Wow. Paul ElaMao.
ReplyDeleteAnd, women can't be trusted with love? Paul Elam is a bitter nut. How does that make any sense at all?
"...I must say, Maggie, that I really have no interest in writing a blog that you personally would actually like. kisses, DF..."
ReplyDeleteThat's too bad. I do have wonderful taste, and an appreciation for fine writing. What you are doing here is mental masturbation.
Haha, Magdelyn, your love of passive aggressive, saccharine bullshit makes me seriously question that you have an appreciation for fine writing.
ReplyDeleteMagdelyn:
ReplyDeleteHe's making fun of mental masturbation, and from his fans myself included who is even checking in on holidays alot of people are finding it very funny.
I checked out your blog faux whore (your other two seemed to not get off the ground at all) ....... maybe your comments are out of jealousy? Seriousy if you don't like it don't read it, but a blogger without an audience telling another with a large and growing one that he is lame is quite sad indeed.
You must trying to do other things to get the attention you seem to crave. Negative attention really isn't everything it's cracked up to be.
Hmmmm... That's an interesting argument, Kave. With that logic, we can assume that the Spearhead, Angry Harry, A Voice for Men, GlenSacks.com are all literary accomplishments, since they have very VERY large audiences. Now, you've mentioned my blog - I didn't - and you compare a personal blog about my own experiences in this life to a blog written by professional writer who has nationally published in major publications? Okay. I expect for from him. I expect some analysis and argument, not "snark." BTW, I do love your writing. It's so, minimalist.
ReplyDeleteThey seem to assume that if only women would just shut up, look pretty and do exactly as they want, life would be perfect.
ReplyDeleteThat's my ex's problem. His new girl's hobby is gazing at him adoringly and thinking he's brilliant, and yet things have yet to improve for him. Must be her looks, hopefully the new haircut is helping.
David, I have to ask ... where on earth did you find that photo? It's brilliant! I'm trying to think of what happened on the set that day: Okay, we've got the sexy lady in a leotard and high heels and elbow-length gloves, we're all set for a glamor shot. Wait, wait--something's missing. Hey--who forgot the shovel? SOMEONE GET ME THE GODDAMN SHOVEL! This shovel-porn calendar isn't going to make itself!
ReplyDeleteIf this was a professional blog (like the HuffPost) then your criticism would be valid Miss Magdelyn. but this is not a professional blog and any money made from it goes to charity.
ReplyDeleteAnd really, tell the people that David quotes to get new material, not tell David to do something different...they are saying the same stuff said in 350 BCE. Do you not think they should be updating what they are saying just a tad?
Or are you an excuser of such bile?
they are saying the same stuff said in 350 BCE.
ReplyDeletePlenty of the stuff said a thousand years ago is still around because it's true. Doctors still swear by the Hippocratic Oath despite the fact that Hippocrates himself has been dead for centuries. The fact that this stuff's been around since 350 BC doesn't, in and of itself, mean that it's wrong.
vagrant, most of doctors do not swear by the Hippocratic oath anymore because it claims that abortion is murder, which anyone with any kind of biological training knows is flat out untrue
ReplyDeleteVagrant-so you are saying that you think that we should start exposing our babies if they do not suit us?
ReplyDeleteThey said that we should do that in 350 BCE.
Vagrant-so you are saying that you think that we should start exposing our babies if they do not suit us?
ReplyDeleteThey said that we should do that in 350 BCE.
Nope. What I said cuts both ways--merely because something's been around since 350 B.C doesn't in and of itself make it right either. The fact that people killed babies 1000 years ago doesn't necessarily make it right...or wrong, either. Same applies to the "misogynistic" stuff the Greeks or the Romans or Aristotle or whoever said. If you want to argue for or against it, you'll have to address something besides its "antiquity" or lack thereof.
Vagrant, the point was "this was wrong then. It is wrong now. Get something different to say since it has been wrong for over two thousand years."
ReplyDeletebee, glad you like the picture. I usually just do simple google image searches, but I look and look until I find a really good one. I have no idea what the context of this one was. It's allegedly a picture of Natalie Wood, and it does look a lot like her -- I think it probably is her. Beyond that, I have no idea. Just glad it exists!
ReplyDeletevagrant, I'm not sure what sort of misogynist arguments you think need to be addressed. Misogyny isn't a logical thing; it's based on opinions and assertions about how women are lesser than men. When Aristotle says that "the female is a mutilated male," there's no need to rebut it. The only people who would think that assertion was true would be misogynists.
"this was wrong then. It is wrong now. Get something different to say since it has been wrong for over two thousand years."
ReplyDeleteAgain, as I mentioned above, the MRAs say the exact opposite--Hollenhund essentially told...I don't remember if it was Susan Walsh or somebody else ('d have to check), "the romans were right then, they're still right now, you feminists are arguing against ideas which have been conclusively proven correct for over a thousand years."
The ancient Greek misogynists may be wrong, and by extension Hollenhund and his contemporary misogynist friends, but you'll have to give a good reason *why* they were wrong, and simply being ancient and/or greek is not really a good marker of wrongness (or rightness). This is not to defend either the MRAs or the ancients overmuch (I have little affection for the former and comparatively little knowledge about the latter), but I merely dislike seeing people disregard ideas based on their age.
Misogyny isn't a logical thing; it's based on opinions and assertions about how women are lesser than men. When Aristotle says that "the female is a mutilated male," there's no need to rebut it. The only people who would think that assertion was true would be misogynists.
Like I said, I'm not an expert on Aristotle, but I imagine he wrote more on women than just that one line. Why would he think "the female is a mutilated male" in the first place? You might not "need" to rebut a misogynistic statement; as always, you don't "need" to do anything on behalf of guests like me. Rebutting the reasoning behind such statements might be interesting, though.
@magdelyn:
ReplyDelete"What you are doing here is mental masturbation."
Ain't nothing wrong with masturbation, mental or otherwise.
Same applies to the "misogynistic" stuff the Greeks or the Romans or Aristotle or whoever said. If you want to argue for or against it, you'll have to address something besides its "antiquity" or lack thereof.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. The opinions and assertions concerning women put forth as fact by Aristotle, and which were believed by not only the Greeks but also the Romans and others for a great many years, have been proven erroneous by advances in the sciences....and yet in many ways we still cling to some outdated assumptions, having long forgotten the reasoning behind these assumptions.
Women were considered to be lesser than men because women could not produce semen, due to their body temperatures not being able to rise to a sufficient degree to cook their menstrual blood into semen. The seed that men produced in their semen contained the entire essence of a human being, soul and all, women contributed nothing more than the fertile soil for the seed to germinate and grow... they were the passive receptors of the male seed. And since it was only the male seed that contributed to the making of a human, women were the result of defective sperm taking root, so they're weren't considered exactly human and were not considered to have souls.... they were, for all intents and purposes, walking incubators, and wives were relegated to the dankest, darkest room in the home.
Women were also considered to be lesser than men in leadership capability. Men were considered natural leaders and women considered natural followers. This revelation occurred to Aristotle when he observed bees and noted that the colony followed just one single bee, which he incorrectly assumed was a male bee.
Vagrant-I have to explain to you how women are not inferior to men? And you see nothing wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteI found this dissertation on Aristotle's view on the treatment of women. Maybe it will help.
And it just reinforced my view that Aristotle is an ass.
due to their body temperatures not being able to rise to a sufficient degree to cook their menstrual blood into semen
ReplyDeleteI'm not much of a scientist, but didn't it occur to anyone back then to try to cook menstrual blood to see if it DID become semen?
Cooking was a woman's job so probably not.
ReplyDeleteVagrant-I have to explain to you how women are not inferior to men? And you see nothing wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to explain anything to me. All I'm saying is that the age of an argument has nothing to do with its validity one way or the other.
In any case, thanks for the dissertation.
I'm not much of a scientist, but didn't it occur to anyone back then to try to cook menstrual blood to see if it DID become semen?
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing, in retrospect, how long it took humans to come up with the idea of testing theories rather than just pulling stuff out of our asses.
Aristotle also famously argued that women were inferior to men because they have fewer teeth, which he believed was a sign of physical weakness and shorter lifespan. This idea was repeated for centuries before it occurred to anyone to check to see whether women actually do have fewer teeth than men. SPOILERS: They don't.
I can understand your belief that simply because something is old does not mean it does not have validity. However what I am saying is get some new material instead of endlessly repeating the same old incorrect thing of centuries ago.
ReplyDeleteHere is a court case that shows your point very well I think. The presumption of innocence is an ancient idea that has validity no matter how old it gets.
One wit said that if he had let his wife open her mouth once in a while he could have realised he was wrong.
ReplyDeleteAristotle: OWNED by Bertrand Russell!
ReplyDeleteOne wit said that if he had let his wife open her mouth once in a while he could have realised he was wrong.
ReplyDeleteI'm not certain that Aristotle was all that concerned about any of his wife's orifices, if you know what I mean. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I'm not certain that Aristotle was all that concerned about any of his wife's orifices, if you know what I mean
ReplyDeleteYes, I know exactly what you mean, but one of the idols of the MRA/MRM seems to be blissfully ignorant of this well-known fact. Warren Farrell, in his "seminal" book The Myth of Male Power stated (in so many words) that societies have historically and universally condemned homosexuality because it is non-reproductive and does not provide an economic and protective security blanket for women.
Yes, he puts forth his own version of history in order to support his contention that men are and always have been the powerless, disposable protectors of women.
That's a pretty ignorant claim on Farrel's part. Ancient Greece may be the most famous culture to endorse widespread man-on-man action, but it was far from the only one. Certain Polynesian cultures looked favorably on man-on-man action as well, at least in the past. I have no idea about present-day Polynesian cultures because my senior thesis research didn't cover that ground.
ReplyDeleteBut Farrel's ignorance is telling. It's always amusing to watch these self-appointed cultural critics demonstrate that they have no real knowledge of any culture outside their own. And yet they feel perfectly comfortably applying their cultural standards to all of humanity.
“It's amazing, in retrospect, how long it took humans to come up with the idea of testing theories rather than just pulling stuff out of our asses.”
ReplyDeleteWhy should anyone have to test their theories! It’s right because they say its right and, even after its proven wrong, it’s still right because they say its right. Religion makes that very, very clear. As do our poor, broken misogynist friends.
/snark
Seriously though, we still do this. We still make shit up and believe it, without ever having done any research at all - largely because someone with some sort of authority, be it real (i.e. a politician) or manufactured (i.e. a “psychic”) - tells us we should. We’re hierarchical pack animals. That dude at the top must be right because he’s the dude at the top.
That's a pretty ignorant claim on Farrel's part. Ancient Greece may be the most famous culture to endorse widespread man-on-man action, but it was far from the only one.
ReplyDeleteIt sure is an ignorant claim, and even if he is/was not aware of other cultures/tribes that did (and maybe some that still do) endorse and institutionalize man-on-man action, Ancient Greece might just be, as you said, the most famous for it; and to be so totally unaware of that when using historical perspectives to support one's contentions, well.... need I say more?
He even goes so far as to say that the reason why some men, particularly blacks, Native Americans and homosexuals (regardless the ethnic background) are dealt with a lot rougher amongst the entire population of men in America is for the same reason as he proposed for the historical and universal condemnation of homosexuality... they don't provide the economic and protective security blanket that women need. Yep, no other possible factors, such as racism, classism, etc.
The MRAs and MRM eat this shit right up because it speaks to what they believe... that men have been the unsung heroes, the disposable providers and protectors of women since time immemorial, and now women dare to bite the hand that feeds, and have been doing so for the last 40-60 years. Meanwhile, Farrell laughs his ass off all the the way to the bank.
Actually, societies who are extremely misogynistic tend to be more accepting of homosexuality - a very strictly defined one, too. It's permissible for an older man to pursue a younger boy, but same-sex relationships for partners of equal age and status are generally verboten. This ethic usually arises when women are considered to be so inferior that they are not valued beyond a housekeeping uterus.
ReplyDeleteAthens practiced this, and so did Sparta - though Sparta was perhaps more forgiving of male relationships, given that it was pretty much expected that a male soldier would form sexual relationships with his peers during training and before marriage. You can also find evidence for this in the colonial Mideast - quite a few European painters have works showing a younger boy trying to seduce or being seduced by older men. This is also currently practiced in some places of tribal Afghanistan, so it's not like this is a tradition from the Dark Ages, either.
Also, cultures that have a very low tolerance for premarital sex find it useful to endorse male homosexuality. Or they could just be like American evangelicals and denounce both, so that everyone gets so sexually frustrated that you end up with widespread unintended pregnancies and STDs. That should work!
ReplyDelete