Over on the Men's Rights subreddit on Reddit, the regular crowd was discussing an article about Assange. One of the allegations against Assange is that he raped one of his accusers in her sleep, without wearing a condom. (EDITED TO ADD: According to her account, she had told him explicitly the night before that she would not have sex with him without a condom, and had in fact refused unprotected sex with him when he'd tried it that evening.) As the article recounts the (alleged) incident:
This response got high-fives from some of the Men's Rights redditors. One quoted Assange's (alleged) remark, then added "Nailed it." Eight upvotes for that comment, no downvotes. Another quoted the same remark, and added "LIKE A BOSS." That got upvotes as well.She says they had consensual sex but she woke up the next morning to find him having intercourse with her to which she had not consented.When she asked him if he was wearing anything, he had allegedly said: "I am wearing you."
So apparently, to some MRAs at least, raping a woman in her sleep is A-OK, just so long as you've got a witty one-liner at the ready when she wakes up.
If that is rape - sliding your penis into a woman's vagina the next morning (after kissing and caressing her for a while) - I am guilty of about 500,000 counts of rape.
ReplyDeleteDamn you morning wood!
I wonder why none of the women ever pressed charges against me.
I guess that will remain a mystery. Could it be that the women enjoyed themselves?
Oh no!
Wait!
I am not also on the sh*t-list of any government agencies.
I get it now...
Same kind of shit happens on feminist websites too. I dunno. I think you should try getting into another tussle with a big MRA. Seems like you're running out of steam comment sniping.
ReplyDeleteThat's just IMO, of course.
Scarecrow: According to her account, she had told him explicitly the night before that he did NOT have her consent to have sex with her without a condom. See here for details:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
I edited my post to make this clear.
And sure, some people like to be woken up to have sex. That doesn't mean that guys have the right to shove their dicks into sleeping women they barely know just because, you know, she MIGHT like it. (And again, in the case of Assange, he's being accused of doing something she had explicitly said no to the night before.)
In relationships where there is trust and communication, one or both of the partners may make it clear that they would not mind being woken up by sex. That's consent. If when they are awoken by their partner doing sexual things to them they decide they don't want to, they can say no and revoke that consent instantly, and the partner is obliged to stop immediately.
It's pretty simple: if there is the slightest doubt that you have consent, don't do it.
This "consent" thing is not that hard. And in this case it's also not that hard to understand where, if what the state says happened happened, a clear case of rape occurred. It should go without saying that I am neutral on whether what happened happened, but since keep that in mind when I say:
ReplyDeleteIf someone says no, absolutely no unless you wear a condom, that no means no.
If someone vigorously defends that no and keeps saying no when you keep asking to bareback, that no means no. It still means no. That person has one condition for saying yes, and that is that you wear a condom.
If you finally agree to wear a condom, accepting that your partner said it's no, absolutely no, unless you wear a condom, well then hey, enjoy! You're about to have sex!
If while your partner is sleeping or not fully conscious you penetrate her against her express wishes, knowing she said no, no, absolutely not without a condom, you are raping your partner.
If your partner wakes up to find you penetrating her without a condom, against her express wishes and without even bothering to try to get a yes from her, and your partner just gives in, that does not mean the act of rape *didn't* happen any more than it means giving in to someone hitting you means that the person didn't strike the first blow. What is alleged is rape and coercion. Try to define any other boundary of another person's basic rights by how the alleged victim responds to the act and not by the act itself and see what kind of fun slippery slope you find yourself on.
Eoghan, though I understand that the comment I am responding to will likely be erased as soon as the guy who runs this blog sees it, people being woken up by an act their partner knows they like is not the same thing as having a partner knowingly violate your express and stated wishes and doing it while you're asleep so as to make it harder for you to resist.
Oops my computer ate part of my statement. I meant to say "but since it seems so hard to discuss this case like rational adults," keep that in mind when I say....
ReplyDelete1)Thomas over at Yes Means Yes has a good example of how this consent thing works for sex-while-asleep: Sleep and Negotiating Consent
ReplyDelete2)Plenty of women do feel violated by having a man start fucking them while they're asleep, but don't press charges for various reasons (I had an acquaintance who got knocked up by her ex that way); that still means it was a rape though, part of that 60% or so of rapes that are never reported to the police.
@Futrelle:
ReplyDeleteFunny, I have "shoved" my dick into a sleeping many a time - never got a complaint.
Hmmm...
And yes - they did wake up smart-a$$.
so you've possibly indeed raped and violated a woman or two. why is this something you feel proud enough of to brag about it online, scarecrow?
ReplyDeletePerhaps Scare Crow never got a complaint because he was in a relationship with someone who was okay with that kind of thing, which makes his entire example pointless because we're talking about someone allegedly doing something he knew his partner was not okay with, awake or asleep?
ReplyDeletegood point, M.
ReplyDeletethough, the tone-deafness on the "consent explicitly denied" part of the issue is worrisome anyway, regardless of whether he's just being an ass on purpose, or really can't tell the difference.
M said...
ReplyDeleteThis "consent" thing is not that hard.
I doubt that. Otherwise in the case of Mr. Assange and many other similar cases it would be easy to judge who is wrong and who is right.
How can you prove what she said (and what he said) in a case he says - she says.... without any other evidence, solely out of the word of these 2 women who even have a right of anonymity?
... no means no ...If you finally agree to wear a condom...
The problem is that YES means also sometimes NO.
Any woman who was drinking something or who took any medication cannot give consent - she might further claim she misunderstood as her native language is not the same native language of the man, even if she said yes.
In general, a woman can recall her consent any time, even months later out of any reason you can imagine.
The responsibility, whatever happened, is always with the man only in Western countries, despite the woman is also an adult.
He also might be drunk, under medication, did not understand clearly what she said - nevertheless the responsibility is with the man only - not really fair, as the woman is considered by law to be like a small child unable to decide properly.
These 2 women fully agreed to sleep overnight in private rooms in the same bed with him, how can they claim to be suddenly surprised that they had sex with this man?
-----
About Julian Assange, he is not known to be a friend of the MRAs.
He was fully co-operating with feminists in the past, got even awards for his pro-feminist activities and now, after he is infamous and is rich, some women show up to extort money from him.
What these women say, who are reporting their rape experiences for the first time after months these incidents took place, is not very creditable. Just my opinion, we will see.
MRAs do not encourage a sexual relationship of this kind. What Mr. Assange did, so-called one-night-stands with various women who know each other - is very risky.
He is now in some troubles, his problem. Why did he not listen to the Men's Rights Movement?
@M and Jadehawk:
ReplyDeleteYou two are obviously bitter because you are not getting any (at least any that is worthwhile).
BWWWWWWWWWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ReplyDeleteScareCrow, your wishful thinking doesn't come up to the standard of evidence.
ReplyDeleteRather, it reeks of projection.
--
(There, there. It'll be all right!) ;)
"In general, a woman can recall her consent any time, even months later out of any reason you can imagine."
ReplyDeleteWhat planet are you writing this from?
"What planet are you writing this from?"
ReplyDeleteThe one where Christians are a persecuted minority, whites are the most discriminated against race, and the the lucky duckies of this world rule over the rich in a true tyranny of the proletariat; of course.
Even the feminists are divided on it. Just take a look at Naomi Wolf vs J. Freidman. So civil too
ReplyDeleteM and Jadehawk, meet Yohan! Yohan does indeed live on another planet. I used to try to fact-check his comments but have given that up as he can make up new untrue facts faster than I can rebut them.
ReplyDeleteI'll just do a couple of little fact checks here:
"now, after he is infamous and is rich, some women show up to extort money from him."
Uh, there is ZERO evidence the women have made any attempt to get money out of all this. What they tried to get Assange to do was to get a test for STDs.
"What these women say, who are reporting their rape experiences for the first time after months these incidents took place, is not very creditable."
The women in fact went to the police shortly after the alleged incidents, in August. For evidence, see the link I posted earlier in the thread. (Yohan being Yohan, there is precisely zero chance he's actually read it.)
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/20/naomi_wolf_vs_jaclyn_friedman_a
ReplyDeleteJACLYN FRIEDMAN
And the result of that is not only that these women are receiving death threats, they are in hiding—one of them has gone to Palestine, because she couldn’t feel safe in Sweden anymore—
That's a ridiculous argument, to feel safe in Palestine and to feel in danger in Sweden...
NAOMI WOLF:
he took off Miss A’s clothes too quickly for her comfort. She tried to tell him to slow down, but then, quote, "she allowed him to undress her." This is what the report says.
... if you’re going to treat women as moral adults and if you’re going to take the issue of rape seriously, the person who’s engaging in what he thinks is consensual sex has to be told, "I don’t want this." And again and again and again, these women did not say, "This is not consensual."
Yes, clearly even feminists are divided what is consent and what is not...
NAOMI WOLF: —where did they say no?
JACLYN FRIEDMAN: I did not interrupt you when you were speaking,
It seems the arguments of FRIEDMAN are rather poor compared to those of WOLF.
FRIEDMAN's arguments are very evasive and avoid to give clear answers to clear questions.
Men are not machines, and their personal decisions are not those of computers. You cannot expect a man, who is not educated as a lawyer and who has no deep-insider knowledge of how to interpret the law including cases of precedence (in this case even laws in another country) to act as a sex-machine while asking permanently for consent for every single detail.
May I undress you?
YES
May I undress you quickly?
NO
What kind of consent is that?
AVID: The women in fact went to the police shortly after the alleged incidents, in August.
ReplyDeleteBut they did not file criminal charges, they reported and tried to 'negotiate'...
Just you, as an American should know what this means...
"But they did not file criminal charges, they reported and tried to 'negotiate'..."
ReplyDeletewrong.
timeline of events
Yohan, as someone who, from what I've seen in my short time here, posts often about the differences between different countries and their legal systems, you might want to ease up on saying that because the accusers didn't "report to the police" in the same way they do in other countries, something nefarious went down. They sought advice from the police and the police decided to charge, which is perfectly normal in Sweden. It also, I would hope, should maybe ease some of the vitriol aimed at these women because they are not the ones alleging anything, the *state* is.
ReplyDeleteDr. Deezee, I have a lot of thoughts on the Friedman-Wolf debate but I don't know if any of the Man Boobz regulars' understanding of feminism (from what I've seen reading archives) is up for that discussion, frankly. I don't think a place where several commenters *really, really* think feminism is some monolithic anti-male beastmonster is a productive space for discussing the finer points of Friedman vs. Wolf.
My short take on it though is that Wolf wasn't actually even debating on feminist grounds in that debate, which is fine, but I can't say I've seen a single other feminist take her side. I know they're out there but I've yet to encounter one of them.
David Futrelle said...
ReplyDeleteM and Jadehawk, meet Yohan! Yohan does indeed live on another planet.
http://www.thelocal.se/31094/20101227/
http://www.thelocal.se/30992/20101221/
Not all people share your opinion, David. This is what you cannot understand. You are too narrow-minded in your feminist views.
And about Mr. Assange, as I said already, he is not an MRA. He is not even MRA-friendly. That's his problem now.
from Wikipedia
ReplyDelete"Assange founded the WikiLeaks website in 2006 and serves on its advisory board. He has published material about extrajudicial killings in Kenya, toxic waste dumping in Africa, Church of Scientology manuals, Guantanamo Bay procedures, and banks such as Kaupthing and Julius Baer.[9] In 2010, he published classified details about American involvement in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. On 28 November 2010, WikiLeaks and its five media partners began publishing secret US diplomatic cables.[10] The White House has called Assange's release of the diplomatic cables "reckless and dangerous"."
He has recently been quoted as saying
“I fell into a hornet’s nest of revolutionary feminism”
You feminists just fucked up real bad!
He... He... He...
Ahaha yes being a narrow-minded, grievance-driven weirdo who has departed reality to move into some sort of Fantasy Oppression Summer Camp would have saved Mr. Assange a headache, I'm sure,.
ReplyDeleteSometimes you guys simply baffle me.
ReplyDeleteYohan, what does Assange's book deal, or the fact that he's not an MRA, have to do with anything I've said?
This is a perfect example of you living on another planet, as you seem to be "rebutting" something you are imagining I think rather than anything I've ever said.
As for the other story you linked to, if Assange is running around the world having unprotected sex with women he's just met in every city, as the two accusers have every right to suspect that he is, they're perfectly justified in being worried about STDs. You are aware how STDs are transmitted, right?
evil, how exactly have feminists fucked up here? And what do you exactly envision happening because of this alleged fuckup?
One comment from me is maybe in the spam-filter?
ReplyDeleteM: the accusers didn't "report to the police" ... They sought advice from the police and the police decided to charge ...
This makes it even more suspicious....almost like a conspiracy theory
http://www.thelocal.se/30946/20101219/
Miss A, 31, was working for the organisation and acted as an unofficial go-between for Assange and journalists during his visit.
She also allowed him to stay with her from his arrival in Stockholm on August 11, according to a transcript of the women's account to police obtained by AFP.
Miss A and Assange had sex several times at her one-room Stockholm flat, according to Swedish tabloids, giving details that were blocked out of the police transcript
Miss W, 27...
she found out the WikiLeaks head was speaking in Stockholm on August 14, she went to the event, insisted on spending the evening with Assange and friends after the talk, and ended up alone with him at the cinema.
There they flirted and he said he found her "very attractive," she told police.
Two days later, they travelled to Miss W's home in Enköping, some 50 kilometers northwest of Stockholm.
.....
The following morning, they had breakfast together, and "in an attempt to de-dramatise what happened", she made "sarcastic comments".
She then took him back to the train station and he promised to call her.
Comment #1 by a reader:
10:49 December 19, 2010 by weiler
She invites him to stay at her flat, they have (consensual?) sex several times, he then molests/rapes/coerces her, then they go to a party, and she lets him stay another four days at her flat after all that. I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like one badly confused and perhaps desperate young lady to me. And her colleague appears to be in a similar league. Assange must be blessed with a magnetic personality or perhaps other prominent physical attributes...
I think so too, to call this to be rape is a distortion from the original meaning of this word.
Jadehawk said...
"But they did not file criminal charges, they reported and tried to 'negotiate'..."
wrong.
YOU are wrong!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
"Both complainants say they did not report him to the police for prosecution but only to require him to have an STD test. However, his Swedish lawyer has been shown evidence of their text messages which indicate that they were concerned to obtain money by going to a tabloid newspaper and were motivated by other matters including a desire for revenge."
"evil, how exactly have feminists fucked up here? And what do you exactly envision happening because of this alleged fuckup? "
ReplyDeleteoh noes, wikileaks is going to leak the Super Secret Feminazi World Conquest Manual™! we're soooooo fucked
DAVID: Assange is running around the world having unprotected sex with women he's just met in every city, as the two accusers have every right to suspect that he is, they're perfectly justified in being worried about STDs. You are aware how STDs are transmitted, right?
ReplyDeleteI am, but you obviously are not.
I do not think, that Mr. Assange was the first sexual partner of these 2 women. These women invited him into their private rooms - their decision - and even agreed to sleep with him for days in their own bed.
STDs are not only transferred from men to women as you suggest with your biased comment. It's also from women to men. It would be fair, in case you request testing the man to agree checking these 2 women, too.
Maybe they have STD, and he has not? How do you know? Do you agree to publish the testing result under any circumstances?
Jadehawk said...
ReplyDelete"But they did not file criminal charges, they reported and tried to 'negotiate'..."
wrong.
It seems, YOU are wrong...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
"Both complainants say they did not report him to the police for prosecution but only to require him to have an STD test. However, his Swedish lawyer has been shown evidence of their text messages which indicate that they were concerned to obtain money by going to a tabloid newspaper and were motivated by other matters including a desire for revenge."
Are we really so through the looking glass that it needs to be mentioned that men can get STDs from women? Duh! It is not bias when someone does not mention what is obvious. That comment was about how STDs are transmitted in unprotected sex, not about how men transmit them to women. I mean...get a grip.
ReplyDelete"evil, how exactly have feminists fucked up here? And what do you exactly envision happening because of this alleged fuckup?"
ReplyDeleteYou don't think being accused of rape affects a man's politics?
Does "a hornet's nest of revolutionary feminism" sound like an endearment?
You don't think a guy with Assange's capabilities can make trouble for feminism?
"oh noes, wikileaks is going to leak the Super Secret Feminazi World Conquest Manual™!"
ReplyDeleteThat would be the SCUM manifesto. But it's already out.
"we're soooooo fucked"
Yes we are.
Ahaha yes, the SCUM manifesto, that document of a thousands-strong organization by which all feminists operate.
ReplyDeleteAt this point I don't think Assange's "capabilities" amount to much more beyond megalomania. There's nothing his organization could do to *hurt* feminism because feminism is a decentralized human rights movement, not a state. Also, a lot of his closest colleagues have been feminism -- like Birgitta Jonsdottir.
I find it funny that someone who extolled Sweden's liberal nature, who tried to get residency there and located so many of Wikileaks' operations there because of its laws is now blasting laws created by the same liberal lawmakers whose work he previously celebrated. I truly believe none of us can know whether he is guilty or innocent in this matter, but after a glut of interviews I don't have difficulty saying that he's quite the hypocrite and I'm not surprised Wikileaks fractured over internal disputes over his egomania.
have been *feminists*!
ReplyDeleteDAVID: how exactly have feminists fucked up here? And what do you exactly envision happening because of this alleged fuckup?
ReplyDeleteI told you David, that Mr. Assange is not MRA-friendly. And this is now his problem.
Why did he accept the invitations of these 2 women to stay in their private rooms and even sleeping in their beds for days?
He did exactly what we MRAs are telling all men NOT to do. - And this is the reason you are calling us 'misogynists'.
What about reading carefully, David... and check out if your information is complete by reading both sides of the story.
http://www.thelocal.se/30946/20101219/
Miss A, 31, was working for the organisation and acted as an unofficial go-between for Assange and journalists during his visit.
She also allowed him to stay with her from his arrival in Stockholm on August 11, according to a transcript of the women's account to police obtained by AFP.
Miss A and Assange had sex several times at her one-room Stockholm flat, according to Swedish tabloids, giving details that were blocked out of the police transcript.
Why were these details blocked out of the police transcipt?
Miss W...insisted on spending the evening with Assange and friends after the talk, and ended up alone with him at the cinema.
There they flirted and he said he found her "very attractive," she told police.
Two days later, they travelled to Miss W's home in Enköping, some 50 kilometers northwest of Stockholm.
But Assange "spent the train ride looking at Twitter posts about himself" and by the time they arrived at her place, "the passion and excitement were gone", she told investigators.
The rape allegations stem from later that night at Miss W's home: the British court heard that Assange had sex with her without a condom while she was asleep.
The following morning, they had breakfast together, and "in an attempt to de-dramatise what happened", she made "sarcastic comments".
She then took him back to the train station and he promised to call her.
It's simple, she expected more ... and was disappointed ... and now she regrets ... and this is rape?
And Mr. Assange was sleeping with BOTH of them, and they did not know that, and now they are angry with him... so easy to understand, but for DAVID this is all beyond imagination.
Comments often share my opinion, like comment #1, same link. So it's not only Yohan and some MRAs....
10:49 December 19, 2010 by weiler
She invites him to stay at her flat, they have (consensual?) sex several times, he then molests/rapes/coerces her, then they go to a party, and she lets him stay another four days at her flat after all that. I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like one badly confused and perhaps desperate young lady to me. And her colleague appears to be in a similar league. Assange must be blessed with a magnetic personality or perhaps other prominent physical attributes...
"I find it funny that someone who extolled Sweden's liberal nature, who tried to get residency there and located so many of Wikileaks' operations there because of its laws is now blasting laws created by the same liberal lawmakers whose work he previously celebrated."
ReplyDeleteI too find it quite humorous when a liberal has an epiphany about liberalism.
Who knows? Perhaps someday our host might just have one.
Yohan: "It's simple, she expected more ... and was disappointed ... and now she regrets ... and this is rape?"
ReplyDeleteUh, did you miss the part, according to her account, where he had sex with her without a condom, which she had told him she would not consent to, when she was asleep?
Also, on the STD thing, my point was of course about unprotected sex, not gender. If a woman discovers that a man she's had unprotected sex with (even setting aside whether that was consensual sex or rape) seems to have had a lot of unprotected sex with assorted partners in rapid succession, she has every reason to worry about STDs. If you reverse the genders, it's still true.
Obviously Assange could have gotten an STD from a women. That, in fact, is precisely what the women were, according to their account, worried about -- that he had gotten an STD from one of the women he'd previously slept with, and possibly given it to them.
If Assange really does make it a practice to engage in unprotected sex with new women in every city he visits, he's an idiot if he's not in a "tizzy" about STDs himself.
Oh, and Naomi Wolf. She's said a lot of idiotic things about the case. Well, she's said a lot of idiotic things about a lot of things since writing her one decent book nearly 20 years ago, but in the last couple of years she's gone all conspiracy-nut.
ReplyDeleteBut don't take my word for that. This piece is a good analysis of the Assange case that deals in detail with some of the dumb things Wolf has said about it:
http://kittywampus.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/what-we-do-and-dont-know-about-julian-assange-sexual-assault-and-douchebaggery/
And one last thing: some posts got spamfiltered, and are up now. Spamfilter has gone into overdrive tonight for some reason.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
ReplyDeleteHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
http://hahahahahahahahahahahaha.blogspot.com/
Hahahahaha hahaha ha, and I hahahahahahahahha In a nutshell, ahahaha, phwahahahaha, ha, ha, hahahaha, hahahaha, etc. Therefore, hahahahaha hahaha ha.
Ha, ha, hahaha and bwahaha, ahahha. HAHAHAHAHAHA, to say the least.
This comment is my attempt to...wait...hahahahaha, holy SHIT hahahahaha, and ha, and hahaha haha.
HA!
@John Morales
ReplyDeleteNo, you are projecting onto me!
pppppppttttttt!
You know, American man, I'm going to have to thank you for boycotting me. Your heroic endeavor has reduced by one my chances of being hit on by a misogynist creep. On behalf of American women everywhere, thank you. But I'll be sure to warn my overseas ladyfriends about your interest.
ReplyDelete"American Man"--Will you respect your own fucking boycott and leave us the fuck alone? Why are you spamming on sites you know we read? Someone's in denial for what attention he wants...
ReplyDelete