Tuesday, March 22, 2011

The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys

I'm walkin' here!
Pierce Harlan of the False Rape Society has broken past the limits of mere logic, arguing that the fact that a small number of guys at a couple of events have put on women's clothing to raise money for women's causes means that rape culture doesn't exist. That seems to be the main message of a post of his today with the baffling title "Boys in bras, boys in heels, boys in pink -- all to raise money for women's causes: Is this the 'rape culture' we hear so much about?"

Harlan, posting as "Archivist," complains about several recent campus events, in which college guys have literally put on heels (to raise money and awareness about sexual assault) and bras (to raise money for breast cancer research). Harlan isn't thrilled about the causes themselves: he has sneeringly derided sexual assault awareness as "a supposedly good cause" and, while acknowledging that breast cancer research is theoretically a good thing, he's evidently tired of hearing about it.

But he seems even more hot and bothered about the cross-dressing by guys he calls "chivalrous clowns," describing the bra-wearing as "creepy" and deriding the guys "prancing around in high heels." Apparently, as Harlan sees it, these fellows are just doing it to impress the chicks:

young men will do pretty much anything to help, to curry favor with, and to be admired by young women.

It is heinous to suggest that attitudes of sexual aggression and dominance over women are normalized, rationalized, and excused by the alleged beneficiaries of "patriarchy" in our culture. In point of fact, the foolish young buffoons in heels and bras are far more representative of young masculinity in our culture than is the young rapist. 

There's not a lot of logic in this, er, argument, but in an earlier posting Harlan elaborates on the distaste he feels towards the "Walk A Mile In Her Shoes" event, which was held at the University of Montana (clearly a hotbed of radical feminism). 

It would be downright shocking if this or similar events ever prevented a single sexual assault from occurring because: (1) prancing around in high heels and similar useless stunts has nothing to do with preventing sexual assault; and (2) the vast majority of young men who strutted their stuff and who participate in such events are highly unlikely to ever rape a woman.  ...

If we want to curb sexual assault, we need to teach our young people the truth, but the truth doesn't jibe with the current rape meta-narrative that holds only one gender responsible for stopping it. ...

Young people generally do not understand that women experience much greater after-the-fact regret than men do. Sometimes feelings of regret are translated into feelings of "being used," and sometimes feelings of "being used" are misinterpreted or purposefully misconstrued as "rape."

Asking the police, a judge, or a jury to sort out what happened in an alcohol-fueled tryst based on a "he said/she said" account puts an impossible burden on our law enforcement and judicial apparatuses. ...

There is no "rape culture"; there is no "rape continuum."  Rape is committed by social deviants, not the nice boy next door. It is almost a certainty that none of the charming young buffoons who strutted around in women's heels yesterday will ever rape a woman. ...

The sad, politically incorrect fact of the matter is that young women have far more power to stop rape than innocent young men by not putting themselves in situations where rape is more likely to occur. 

There's a lot of bullshit condensed into these short paragraphs. There's victim-blaming, of course: do we regularly attack murder victims for "putting themselves in situations where murder is likely to occur?" There's his weird complaint that actually investigating and prosecuting date rape puts an "impossible burden" on police and the judicial system: should we simply stop enforcing laws against all crimes that are hard to investigate or prosecute? And there's his unwillingness to accept the simple fact that rapists all too often do look exactly like the "nice boy next door." As for his complaint that these events target the wrong people, see here for an argument as to why it makes sense to raise awareness specifically amongst those men who are NOT likely to rape women. 

In the past a few MRAs have asked me why I put the False Rape Society blog in my "boob roll" -- and formerly in my "enemies list." This is why. Spreading blatant misinformation and blaming victims: these are not exactly good ways to actually reduce the number of men falsely accused of rape.

And here's another thought for the MRAs reading this, Harlan included: if you are truly as concerned about testicular or prostate cancer -- or any other male malady -- as you so often and so loudly claim to be, take a few moments away from your constant complaining about feminism and/or women, and actually hold a fund raiser yourselves. In a comment on his latest post, Harlan writes: "My problem is this: how about an event to raise funds for male suicide, etc. once in a while?" You know how events like these happen? PEOPLE ORGANIZE THEM. There is nothing stopping MRAs from organizing such an event on their own. How about it, guys? 

--

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132 comments:

  1. "young men will do pretty much anything to help, to curry favor with, and to be admired by young women."

    Judging from this site it would appear this problem isn't confined to young men.

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  2. "Wanting women to have a favorable opinion of you" seems okay to me as one potential motivation for not acting like a manboob, if that's what it takes.

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  3. Once again I'm struck by how terribly negative the MRA view of men is.

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  4. he is right about one thing, one the way that we talk about rape needs to change. Where he gets it wrong though is how we are currently talking about it. Our society currently treats rape in just the manner that he is wanting. If the coverage of the gang rape of the 11 year old in texas doesn't demonstrate just that I don't know what does

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  5. There is no "rape culture"; there is no "rape continuum." Rape is committed by social deviants, not the nice boy next door.

    He just made a claim, and then disproved that claim in the very next sentence.

    The second sentence doesn't disprove the first at face value, but the fact that Archivist believes it does. This idea that the nice-looking boy next door couldn't possibly be a rapist because he doesn't hang out in dark alleys or wear trench coats, and isn't black, is at the very core of rape culture. The nice-looking boy next door wants you to trust him implicitly because that makes it easier for him to rape you, and more importantly, easier to get away with it.

    Claiming that creepy strangers in back alleys are the most common rapists is naive at best, and disingenuously misogynist at worst.

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  6. Someone pointed out they could organize an equivalent event and that dude said "you do it" because he cannot be bothered to actually make an effort to change things. He is only wanting to complain about how much better women have it without paying attention to the fact it takes time and effort to get the kind of attention that breast cancer gets.

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  7. Addendum: Also at the core of rape culture is that the nice-looking boy next door often believes himself that he couldn't possibly be a rapist. I'm a middle-class, normal white guy, he thinks. Guys like me aren't rapists. Rather than not raping, however, this just gives him latitude to commit date rape or some other technically non-violent form of rape and walk away convinced that he didn't actually commit rape.

    And then people like Archivist will be busy apologizing for him without question, largely because he has a penis.

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  8. Yes means Yes just deconstructed one of my favorite studies on this subject, http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

    The short of it: In English we think it's rude to tell people "no" directly, so we don't.

    Men and women understand indirect refusals to requests which are not sexual. If you ask someone if they would like to go bowling and they say: Well, I'd love to but there's this thing, etc. We easily understand that they are politely saying no.

    But when it comes to sexual requests, men do not want to understand women's polite refusals, so we place the responsibility on women to communicate their refusal in a way which is looked down and seen as rude in our general communication, the "No means No" model.

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  9. @triplanetary - appropriate nic. You are definitely out there pal. Speak for yourself idiot.

    This is great.

    No actual meat against anything he said.

    Just whining and bitching about how he isn't starting a fund raiser for testicular cancer.

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  10. It is a valid question to ask ScareCrow-women put together events like the above to raise awareness about their issues but what guy has created a "Jockstrap For Testicular Cancer Awareness" event? Why complain about the lack when these guys are not out there doing the same thing women did? Is it because maybe, just maybe, men think women are supposed to not be organizing things to take care of their medical needs but instead that they should be working solely on male medical needs?

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  11. ScareCrow: Speak for yourself idiot.

    I wasn't. I'm not a rapist. But unlike some men, my conception of myself as "not a rapist" doesn't mean that I just do whatever the hell I want and then justify it after the fact as not-rape when it actually was. It means that I don't rape in the first place.

    It's not really any different from the fact that I'm not a murderer, except that society is constantly sending signals to men that rape is tacitly acceptable, especially against women who "deserve" it for any number of reasons.

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  12. In the past a few MRAs have asked me why I put the False Rape Society blog in my "boob roll" -- and formerly in my "enemies list."

    Why would they have to ask? It seems to be cut from the same mendacious, paranoid, kyriarchy-supporting piece of garbage cloth as the rest of the sites you link to. In my view, worse than most of them, actually, since it adds victim blaming to the list.

    Women (or other people) who falsely equate regret with rape may exist--but I've never worked with one. It's an MRA bugaboo. However, I have worked with people who decline to file a report because they don't want to give one of the two pairs of pants they own to the police as evidence. And people who decline to file a report because it's taking so long and their family will know something's wrong if they don't get home soon. And people who decline to file a report because the last time they filed a report, nothing happened.

    This thing too--"The sad, politically incorrect fact of the matter is that young women have far more power to stop rape than innocent young men by not putting themselves in situations where rape is more likely to occur"--is enraging, for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that many people who have been raped were raped in a situation that arose because they were working. Or because they were homeless. Or because they were in a care facility.

    In short: The False Rape Society is garbage.

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  13. This thing too--"The sad, politically incorrect fact of the matter is that young women have far more power to stop rape than innocent young men by not putting themselves in situations where rape is more likely to occur"--is enraging, for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that many people who have been raped were raped in a situation that arose because they were working. Or because they were homeless. Or because they were in a care facility.

    MRAs tend to have massive blinders on with regard to thinks like privilege and class. Their constant moaning about women kicking back at home instead of working, for example, reveals that when they make generalizations they're really only thinking about upper-middle and upper-class people.

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  14. On the "falsely equate regret with rape thing"...

    This is why we need a model of enthusiastic consent. If people having sex only do what each of them really really wants to do, then there isn't going to be any regret.

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  15. Because anything a man does to try and impress a woman is male oppression.

    Frankly, if some guys are walking a mile in high heels, my hat is off to them. Those suckers hurt, especially the stilettos the guy in the photo is wearing.

    The sad, politically incorrect fact of the matter is that young women have far more power to stop rape than innocent young men by not putting themselves in situations where rape is more likely to occur.

    And then women get bitched at for being afraid of men.

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  16. MRAs tend to have massive blinders on with regard to thinks like privilege and class. Their constant moaning about women kicking back at home instead of working, for example, reveals that when they make generalizations they're really only thinking about upper-middle and upper-class people.

    Very heavy projection going on here.

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  17. Dang Dave - I hope you are enjoying this wackiness.

    "society is constantly sending signals to men that rape is tacitly acceptable" WTF?!!?

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  18. Hey ScareCrow:

    What steps do you take in your daily life to avoid being raped? How does rape influence the clothes you chose to wear, the activities you chose to do, the people you chose to hang out with, the times you are comfortable leaving your house? How many seminars have you been to where you were given handy tips to avoid being raped?

    How many movies have you seen where people like you are brutally raped as a plot point? Hundreds? What about tv shows? Thousands?

    How often do people who are physically stronger than you demand your attention in public? Have you ever had someone physically stronger than you insist they "help" you carry something to your car or into your house? When you have people over, do you think about whether or not they will leave when you ask? Or if you would be able to make them leave if they refuse? Has anyone who cares about you ever suggested you get a dog "for protection"?

    When it comes to rape, men and women live in different worlds and from our perspective, "society is constantly sending signals to men that rape is tacitly acceptable."

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  19. society is constantly sending signals to men that rape is tacitly acceptable

    Please show me one instance of a woman being raped that made national news in which her claims were immediately believed - rather than question her motive, what she was wearing or if she put herself in that situation. Or, if the victim was young, wondering where her parents were. Just one case where the victim was treated fairly by the national news media. I sure can't think of one - even JonBenet Ramsey and her parents were criticized.

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  20. @triplanetary, I disagree with you that rapists do not know they are rapists. Sure, they avoid using the term, but most rapists are perfectly aware that the victim did not consent. Rapists also tend to be serial rapists (studies of those convicted of at least one rape found an average of about ten rapes, studies of college students found that those who admitted to rapes had an average of about seven). While Harlan is wrong about, well pretty much everything else, he is semi-correct that rapes tend to be committed by a discreet minority of men( at least in the US, studies from parts of Africa show different trends). The problem is that Harlan and his ilk make constant excuses and apologies for the rapists. The cultural apologism for rape and victim blaming enables and encourages the minority of men who are actual rapists. That is what rape culture is: the minority of people who are actually rapists+excuses and apologism+victim blaming+ social acceptability of rape as terrorism against certain bodies.

    Moving on, this quote:

    "Boys in bras, boys in heels, boys in pink -- all to raise money for women's causes: Is this the 'rape culture' we hear so much about?"

    is blatantly obtuse (not to mention transphobic and misogynist). I would say that the men who are participating in this sexual assault awareness campaign are doing so precisely to combat the problem. It is like pointing at a union activist being all pro-union and asking "so, what is the anti-union sentiment I keep hearing about?" You can't just take any effort to ameliorate the problem as proof that no problem exists.

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  21. @triplanetary, I disagree with you that rapists do not know they are rapists. Sure, they avoid using the term, but most rapists are perfectly aware that the victim did not consent.

    Well I suppose what I meant was that people like date rapists often do think that they're not rapists in the same sense that a back-alley rapist is a rapist. They're still terrible people, naturally.

    But this false distinction is something that rape apologists thrive on. You can find a limitless number of pundits in "respectable" media outlets like WaPo and the WSJ explicitly arguing that date rape isn't rape.

    While Harlan is wrong about, well pretty much everything else, he is semi-correct that rapes tend to be committed by a discreet minority of men( at least in the US, studies from parts of Africa show different trends).

    I didn't intend to imply that a majority of men rape.

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  22. Quite a staggering conversation indeed!

    Allow me to participate:

    I disagree that rapists do not know that they are not raping other rapists. My line of thought can be separated into two sub-categories on the subject:

    1. Think saran wrap.
    2. Too much coffee.

    If you follow me so far, then allow me to present my rebuttal to various other postulates presented at this local as well:

    "The media always criticizes the rapee, and not the rapists who do not know that they are not the ones not raping other rapists" agito er go sum.

    "Please show me one instance of a woman being raped that made national news in which her claims were immediately believed"

    Duke Lacrosse.

    Crap lady - try reading the blog at "falserapesociety.blogspot.com".

    People accused of rape (not actually guilty of it) are routinely beaten or killed.

    What effing planet are you from.

    DIARRHEA!

    HA!

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  23. Here is an article a friend posted on Facebook regarding the myth of "she is asking for it." Slightly off topic but the add is awesome.

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  24. Here is an article a friend posted on Facebook regarding the myth of "she is asking for it." Slightly off topic but the add is awesome.

    I like it! The scene at the department store would be funny if rape culture weren't a real thing. :(

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  25. And the accents are delightful.

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  26. I have to say that this reminds me of something that's been going on in one of the less unsavory boards on 4chan -- it's kind of a thing for people to post vocal performances (usually, but not always, erotica) on Vocaroo.com. However, in a lot of threads, creepers show up wanting to "dox" (i.e. get real name, location, etc) the girls, and at least one kept referring to one of the posters by (what he thought was) her real name.

    Object, and you get accused of whiteknighting by the creepers. Never mind that, you know, they're basically being hecklers on steroids. Some people just get off on making women miserable, especially if they're engaging in provocative entertainment.

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  27. >>Implying any board on 4chan is "less unsavory"
    >>chuckling elf man.jpg

    I kid, I kid. Sorry Brian, just messin' with ya, I assume you're a fellow 'channer. Really, though, depending on which board you're referring to everyone, and I mean *everyone* is a creeper. Every board might not be bad as /b/ and there are some which are pretty laid back (/po/ and /tg/, for instance) but if the board you're referring to is one of the NSFW ones, I'd say the crowds they attract in general won't necessarily be the most well-adjusted, especially in regards to women.

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  28. triplanetary said...
    "I'm not a rapist."

    Get into a heated argument with your girlfriend or fail to call her back the next day and then see if you still ain't a rapist.

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  29. Get into a heated argument with your girlfriend or fail to call her back the next day and then see if you still ain't a rapist.

    Hey, good reply, evilewhitemaleempire. I particularly liked the part where you're a sexist piece of shit.

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  30. I don't know if men in heels is particularly helpful toward getting rid of misogyny as such, but they can be rather hot.

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  31. Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of the non-creep guys I know can have heated fights that had nothing to do with rape with their girlfriends and not be called rapists. THen again, they don't tend to date the kind of (rare, but existent) women who do make wild accusations whenever they get into a fight. Then again again, entitled creeps and drama llamas do tend to attract each other quite a bit, I have noticed.

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  32. If feminist jurisprudence applied to traffic then a driver who hit a pedestrian who ran out on the freeway during rush hour would be held ENTIRELY resposible.
    Any attempt to question the pedestrian would amount to victim blaming.

    You feminists just don't want to be held accountable for anything you do.
    And you know what? That's a FEMALE thing.

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  33. triplanetary
    This is one sexist piece of shit that will never be falsely accused.
    You remember that the day you find yourself in court because you thought it could never happen to you.

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  34. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  35. Urgh! That came of as rather mysogynistic.

    Evilwhitemaleempire...

    Stop pulling women just for sex. Crazy people exist in both genders. Any woman accusing men of rape is probably not thinking with all cylinders.

    Here is a hint. Go on a date or three. Decide if you both actually have anything in common such as whining about the rights of women and reducing their rights. Based on compatability have sex.

    It means people are less likely to call you a rapist. Hands up here men who have not been called rapists by the other half of the population.

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  36. This is one sexist piece of shit that will never be falsely accused.
    You remember that the day you find yourself in court because you thought it could never happen to you.


    Statistically unlikely. But if it does happen it won't make me sympathize with you in the least. Similarly, if I were falsely accused of murder I wouldn't suddenly decide that most murder accusations are false and that suspicion should immediately be cast upon the accuser.

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  37. Hmm... I've gotten into pretty heated arguments with boyfriends, I've been dumped out of the blue and I've been summarily ignored. But you know, I have never once been even remotely tempted to accuse the men in question of something they didn't do, much less rape. I've certainly cried and called them names and wished ill fortune on them - but I've never once been tempted to file a false police report about anyone.

    And your analogy about a pedestrian fails. If a pedestrian darts out into traffic before the driver has time to react, it's an unfortunate accident. Rape doesn't happen by accident or because someone was distracted for a moment. And even if that pedestrian *does* dart into traffic, it's partly the driver's responsibility to try and avoid hitting them. Pedestrians have the right of way (at least in my jurisdiction, they do), and drivers should be aware of people walking about near their cars.

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  38. Rape doesn't happen by accident or because someone was distracted for a moment.

    I have a penis, so let me mansplain for you. When my penis builds up 60 miles per hour worth of momentum, it's liable to hit anyone who runs out in front of it. So basically it's exactly like a car.

    Check out my blog, FalseVehicularManslaughterAndAlsoRapeSociety.blogspot.com, sometime.

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  39. There is nothing stopping MRAs from organizing such an event on their own. How about it, guys?
    I thought feminism was the only gender equality movement. Why do you suddenly roll on your backs and admit ineptitude when it comes to male issues?
    The MRM will continue to exist and grow as long as you allow it to - by neglecting men in favor of the better sex.
    Rape doesn't happen by accident or because someone was distracted for a moment.
    Which rape are you referring to? A girl drinking a few beers at a party and then screwing a guy before the first date? Or an actual rape where the woman is either fighting and screaming or unable to defend herself? You honorary women have lumped drunk sex into violent, bitter assault, so it's difficult to tell when you're being serious and when you're just applying some flawed theory on to human behavior.

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  40. Tri has been established as a hypocrite, an idiot, and a liar already. Take whatever this sex-apologist honorary woman says with a grain of salt. We've already gotten enough from him in this post. We should focus on gathering additional evidence from the other subjects.

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  41. @e-string. Rape is a male issue. Last time I checked, women only extremely rarely rape other women. Way to erase the actual perps in this discussion. As to breast cancer, these events are privately organized, usually by people who have relatives who have had breast cancer (the young woman who organized the largest event at my undergrad had lost her mother and two of her aunts). Supporting breast cancer awareness does not harm men. You have in no way shown that women or feminists are obstructing any effort to discuss or advocate for any other type of cancer (the same young woman was a key organizer of Relay for Life on the campus as well and that addresses other cancer research funding).

    @triplanetary, I was addressing date rapists as well (who are the majority of rapists to begin with). This notion that date rapists cannot or do not generally know the victim is not consenting does not square with the research. They know the victim did not consent-they know they raped. They avoid using the word to avoid stigma and because, frankly, some people think certain types of rape are okay. They usually know that drunk girls are not freely consenting and specifically seek them out for that reason. They just think that such rape is acceptable. Ideas like "it is not rape so long as she is drunk/a prostitute/wearing tight clothes" work using the premise that the victim did not consent. It is just an attempt to redefine rape/sexual assault not in terms of consent, but rather in terms of the perceived social worthiness of the victim.

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  42. "evilwhitemalempire said...

    If feminist jurisprudence applied to traffic then a driver who hit a pedestrian who ran out on the freeway during rush hour would be held ENTIRELY resposible.
    Any attempt to question the pedestrian would amount to victim blaming."

    This equation would only make sense if a woman leapt, pantless and legs spread, in front of a pack of men running down the street with their erect penises preceding them.

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  43. estring: Which rape are you referring to? A girl drinking a few beers at a party and then screwing a guy before the first date? Or an actual rape where the woman is either fighting and screaming or unable to defend herself?

    Let's get this straight: Just because a person has a drink or two doesn't mean that any sex they consent to is rape. Nor does it mean that any sex they don't or can't consent to isn't rape. Rape involving drugs or alcohol IS "actual rape."

    Depending on weight, tolerance, other medications taken, and a number of other factors, "a few beers" may be enough to get someone so drunk that they can't meaningfully consent, or not. There's no bright line law, but typically statutes have language like "a person cannot consent if they are physically helpless or mentally incapacitated." Which may not give you a clear answer about your girl who had a few beers, but should give you some guidance.

    Overall, MRAs have a pretty strange view on how the criminal justice system works, I find. It's actually very unpleasant filing a report and getting a rape kit. The police typically range from trying to be sympathetic to not even trying anymore. And you think women file rape reports after not being raped--just ... because?

    Let me say it again: Rape involving drugs and alcohol is actual rape.

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  44. String-again with the excuses. My grandpa said if you want something done, you do it. So stop making excuses as to why you are not out getting events and awareness done and just go and do it. Feminists are not required (even if they want gender equality) to do your work for you.

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  45. String and Evilwhitevapire: Your so-called arguments are utterly vile, but okay, fine, let's play this whole "the woman had it coming" game.

    Now that you've mansplained the idea of personal responsibility to me, I can clearly see how the same idea can be applied to men falsely accused of rape. They too, had it coming. After all, if drunken sex, or no-strings-attached sex, so often lead to false rape accusations, then the remedy for a man is clear: don't have sex with drunk women, don't have sex with tipsy women, and don't have casual sex. Better yet, stay out of bars and clubs completely, otherwise, you are clearly asking to be falsely accused of rape. Be a good, modest boy. Don't use profanity, don't drink, don't go to parties, don't grab your crotch, don't talk like a sex-obsessed macho moron, don't ogle women like you totally want it (to be falsely accused, that is). Stay away from skanky women, hysterical women, drunk women, stoned women and women you don't know; otherwise, you are asking to be falsely accused of rape, and it's all your fault. It's best if you just go to church and save yourself for marriage. Also, if your grasp of receptive language is so poor that you can't understand the word "no", and if you so completely lack the ability to interpret non-verbal cues that you might "accidentally" force yourself on someone, then I suggest you hurry to your nearest adult day care center for the mentally challenged instead of the night club. But if you walk into a bar looking to get laid at any cost, you buy the ticket, and if you buy the ticket, you get the whole ride. Stop whining as if the victims of false rape accusations aren't at fault.

    There. How's victim blaming working out for you NOW , assholes?

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  46. @Avicenna - "Crazy people exist in both genders"

    True, but 66% of head-meds are consumed by women.

    This means that there are more crazy women than men.

    HA!

    I fart in your general direction.

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  47. @ String:

    Here's an analogy for you. There's a group of people who care a lot about animal rights. They've put in a lot of effort towards that end - they do fundraisers, they raise awareness and they've even managed to get some legislation passed protecting the rights of animals.

    Then along comes a couple people who are worried about climate change. They demand that the animal rights group immediately abandon all their work and effort to work on climate change, and almost as an afterthought point out that animals would suffer from climate change, too, so why don't these people care about animals the way they say they do? The animal rights people try to explain that this is their cause and what they're invested in, but the climate change people insist that their cause is more important.

    You see? People can only do so much with their limited resources and time. Perhaps if we were immortal, you'd have a point. But we're not, so you don't have a right to demand that people start working on YOUR issue, right now. However, if prostate cancer is a concern in your life, there is nothing stopping you from setting up a website, lobbying for research grants or organizing bike rides for your cause. But expecting feminists to drop what they are doing to come care for your pet issue is just one more instance of a man insisting a woman take care of his needs first.

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  48. Monty Python objects, ScareCrow. Stop hijacking their lines--their funniness is not going to magically rub off one you.

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  49. ScareCrow: "66% of head-meds are consumed by women.

    This means that there are more crazy women than men."

    No, it means that more women than men take psychiatric meds. They may be crazier, they may be less crazy but more likely to take medicine, they may be more likely to be prescribed medicine, they may be overprescribed when they really don't need the meds.

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  50. Correction, Sally: their intentional funniness is not going to rub off on him. I personally find Scarecrow hilarious, but not usually in the way he intends. Unless, of course, he's doing some sort of Andy Kaufmanesque performance art, in which case he's fairly good at it.

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  51. A query for those who wish to respond:

    A man and a woman are having consensual intercourse. In the middle of the act, one partner (it doesn't matter who) asks the other partner to stop. The other partner refuses to stop, and continues until finished. Has rape occurred?

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  52. It is just an attempt to redefine rape/sexual assault not in terms of consent, but rather in terms of the perceived social worthiness of the victim.

    This is what I was ineptly trying to get at. Thanks for setting me straight.

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  53. Hmm... I've gotten into pretty heated arguments with boyfriends, I've been dumped out of the blue and I've been summarily ignored. But you know, I have never once been even remotely tempted to accuse the men in question of something they didn't do, much less rape. I've certainly cried and called them names and wished ill fortune on them - but I've never once been tempted to file a false police report about anyone.

    Hey isn't this the "I am the world" argument? Elizabeth, you commented after that so you obviously saw it, why didn't you harp on her for using it? You had no problem falsely accusing me of using it, but when a feminist genuinely uses it you stay silent? What's up with that?

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  54. A query for those who wish to respond:

    A man and a woman are having consensual intercourse. In the middle of the act, one partner (it doesn't matter who) asks the other partner to stop. The other partner refuses to stop, and continues until finished. Has rape occurred?


    This actually happened to me so I am quite curious to know.

    Many years ago before I had my vasectomy I was in bed with my girlfriend and she mounted herself on me with no condom. I didn't object to it at first but as I got close to orgasm it occurred to me that I really didn't want to be a father and so I told her to get off. She just smirked at me and refused to do so, even as I tried to lift her off. The end result was that she got my semen inside her against my will, but luckily she didn't get pregnant. Am I a rape victim?

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  55. She just smirked at me and refused to do so, even as I tried to lift her off. The end result was that she got my semen inside her against my will, but luckily she didn't get pregnant. Am I a rape victim?

    Two considerations:
    1) When you asked her to stop, she absolutely, unconditionally should have stopped.
    2) Whether or not you were raped basically depends on how you feel about it. If you felt raped I would support you in that.

    While number 2 may seem capricious and arbitrary, number 1 makes it entirely appropriate. If your girlfriend didn't want to risk a rape charge she should have stopped when you told her to.

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  56. Let me guess, you think the police would actually have taken such a charge seriously if I pressed it?

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  57. Not necessarily, but I think the average man is likelier to simply not report the crime out of shame than he is to be rebuffed by the police if he does choose to report it.

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  58. Oh, and what makes you think that? Can you even point to a single case in which a woman was prosecuted(not necessarily convicted, just prosecuted) for raping a man? Note that by "man" I mean a male of at least 18 years of age.

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  59. I think that the police may very well have not taken you seriously. That doesn't mean that I don't think you were sexually assaulted. You were sexually assaulted.

    In my experience, and this is pure "anec-data," most people who have a partner refuse to stop during what was a previously consensual sexual encounter don't go to the police. Doesn't mean they weren't sexually assaulted.

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  60. I read a case where a woman was prosecuted for raping a man. She tied him up and raped him.

    The scenario you described above is rape. Scenarios like that are often not prosecuted, however.

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  61. Capt. Bath:

    I don't know the answer legally.

    I do know that I want to be the kind of person, and have sex with the kind of people, who would be more worried about their partner's discomfort than their orgasm.

    I also know, if I was having sex with someone and asked them to stop and they refused, we would most likely not have sex again.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Google provides me with:
    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1027927.ece

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  63. @ Captain Bathrobe

    Yes. Full stop. The partner that wished to stop may choose not to report it to the authorities, given our toxic culture and attitudes about consent, but that was rape.

    Honestly, I don't even want to imagine the kind of person who would hear their partner say, "no, stop," and continue anyway. (Aside from consenting adults engaged in kinky things with a safe word or signal, good for them.) The only people I've had sex with have cared about my pleasure as well as their own. I am fortunate.

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  64. Per Arizona state law:
    A. A person commits sexual assault by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person without consent of such person.

    -----
    Most American states have signed on with the Model Penal Code, I cannot imagine your state is any different Cold and if you said stop, she should have stopped. Failure to do so sounds like the quoted law and therefore she should/could have been charged with committing sexual assault (and probably unlawful kidnapping because you were unable to get away from her.)

    Whether or not the charges resulted in a conviction is another story but no means no-even for us ladies.

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  65. Honestly, I don't even want to imagine the kind of person who would hear their partner say, "no, stop," and continue anyway.

    It's a monstrous attitude, but it's not uncommon. Glenn Beck has some vile tripe about "don't wake the dragon" in his novel The Overton Window.

    Many misogynists, and I've seen Roosh for example display this kind of attitude, talk like male sexuality is some unstoppable force, and if you get a man going, you have no right to say no because you can't expect him to be able to stop. Evilwhitemaleempire's car analogy up above betrays this attitude, I think. This is a lie to excuse rape, obviously.

    For those of us who have sex with women for mutual enjoyment, rather than to dominate the fuck out of them, being asked to stop mid-sex is not some impossible request. There might be any number of reasons a woman is asking me to stop. There could be some sudden pain, or any number of other things. If you can't even be arsed to stop and find out why she's saying stop, yeah, you're a rapist asshole.

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  66. Cold: It sounds like you were sexually assaulted. I am sorry that happened to you.

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  67. Glenn Beck has some vile tripe about "don't wake the dragon" in his novel The Overton Window.

    Many misogynists, and I've seen Roosh for example display this kind of attitude, talk like male sexuality is some unstoppable force, and if you get a man going, you have no right to say no because you can't expect him to be able to stop. Evilwhitemaleempire's car analogy up above betrays this attitude, I think. This is a lie to excuse rape, obviously.


    It's this type of attitude, the intention to shame and blame the victim and absolve the perpetrator, that quite possibly aids in hindering adult female-on-adult male rape (or sexual assault) from being taken seriously.

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  68. FWIW, I agree that it would, or should, constitute rape. Whether it would prosecutable as such is another question.

    ReplyDelete
  69. @Elizabeth, no state has actually fully or verbatim adopted the model penal code section on rape (article 213 of the model penal code). Some states adopt more of the model penal code in general than others, but on certain subjects, the average state laws are vastly different from the model penal code (attempt liability is one good example). That said, the model penal code has really, really fucked up rape and sexual assault definitions (see Model Penal Code Article 213 "Sexual Offenses). Only males can rape (though sexual assualt and "deviate sexual intercourse by force or imposition" can have female perps), but spousal rape is exempted and evidence of the victim's past promiscuity is allowed as a defense when the victim is a minor in statutory rape cases (referred to as "corruption of minors and seduction" section 213.3). So, the model penal code is actually rather shitty here.

    @ Captain Bathrobe and Cold, yes, that situation as described is rape. Maybe not under every legal code, but ethically it is rape and it should criminally be rape as well.

    On purely legal grounds: If you look at the US (sorry to be US centric, but law is specific to country and that is my area), some states define rape as by definition to be penetration of anus or vagina of the victim with a penis, so under those definitions, only people with penises can be rape pepetrators. Non-penetrative rapes or rapes with female pepetrators are classified as sexual assaults in those jurisdictions and may or may not have the same punishment. Some states do not define rape this way. At least one state supreme court has affirmitively stated that females can rape male victims and that all rape statutes apply accross gender (Commonwealth v. Hitchcock, 523 Pa. 248, 251, 565 A.2d 1159, 1161 (1989))

    Okay, so I am a 1L and have a copy of the Model Penal Code on hand and access to Westlaw (West's online database)...

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  70. Let me guess, you think the police would actually have taken such a charge seriously if I pressed it?

    1. Unfortunately, no, they probably would not have taken it seriously.
    2. That failure to take your sexual assault seriously would not be the fault of feminism, but rather of traditional values about male sexuality. If anything, feminism has made it more, not less, likely that such a charge would be taken seriously--which is not to say that we don't have a long way to go here.

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  71. Glenn Beck has some vile tripe

    Vile tripe from Glenn Beck? No way.

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  72. This is a lie to excuse rape, obviously.
    Break out the tin-foil hats, those evil pick-up artists are plotting ways to excuse strangling a woman while they forcibly penetrate her, obviously. Never mind the fact that even male criminals look down on rapists and accusations of rape have been used to justify lynchings as far back as the antebellum period.
    Feminists know jack shit about the heterosexual male opinion. Only a very, very small minority of men would not ruthlessly assault a man who was convicted of rape - take a look at how rapists are treated in prison. They often receive treatment many times worse than what they subjected on their victim, assuming it was not a Duke Lacrosse-type trial with overzealous feminist harpies screeching from the sidelines.

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  73. DSC-lucky! I only get access to AZ's and the 9th circuit appellate cases on Westlaw and have to look up federal cases outside the 9th circuit on Justia/OpenJurist. And I have never seen the model penal code in its entirety so I stand corrected and am shocked! Shocked! I tells you that Arizona actually has a better than average view of sexual assault.

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  74. Not really-we were one of the few states that made spousal rape a serious offense.

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  75. @Cold

    That sounds like rape to me. Your girlfriend should have stopped the moment you asked her to stop.

    As for whether the police would even take it seriously, it's a matter of chance. Honestly, we can't guarantee that they'll take any rape victims seriously, male or female. I'd hope they would listen, FWIW from this feminist.

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  76. But expecting feminists to drop what they are doing to come care for your pet issue is just one more instance of a man insisting a woman take care of his needs first.
    I never knew prostate cancer or male suicide were both "pet issues" - I guess that goes to show how little feminists care about men. Anyway, because feminism is about equality, one would expect them to devote equal time to male issues of equal import.
    We don't actually expect you to do that because you're either lying man-haters or misguided/self-loathing honorary women.

    Now, don't you feminists bitch about the Men's Rights Movement, Male Studies, etc. being unnecessary? You just admitted the shortcomings of feminism - indifference towards male issues - and justified the existence of a MRM! Hence, quit your bitching and shaming and let the MRM do its job. The best you can do in this case, as you have established by your inaction, is to sit down and shut up.

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  77. Honestly, we can't guarantee that they'll take any rape victims seriously, male or female. They took the Duke Rape case pretty fucking seriously.

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  78. Break out the tin-foil hats, those evil pick-up artists are plotting ways to excuse strangling a woman while they forcibly penetrate her, obviously.

    Rape culture isn't a tinfoil conspiracy. Its existence has been well-understood for decades and all your ranting about it won't change that fact.

    Never mind the fact that even male criminals look down on rapists and accusations of rape have been used to justify lynchings as far back as the antebellum period.

    You can't really be this stupid. Haha, just kidding, of course you can. As DSC pointed out above, the way society at large responds to a rape depends on the perceived social status of the victim. Many, many, many of the lynchings you're referring to were cases of a black male raping a white woman. Obviously that's not something the white folk of the antebellum (or postbellum, for that matter) period are going to tolerate. A poor man raping a rich woman was likely to be similarly treated.

    But if a rich man raped a poor woman, or a white man raped a black woman? Hellz no they're not going to get lynched. Ultimately, rape culture (more so than the act of rape itself) is about putting women in their place, so if you're socially superior to the rape victim, you're pretty damn likely to get away with it.

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  79. Hence, quit your bitching and shaming and let the MRM do its job

    We're not stopping you. It's just that the MRM doesn't seem to have a job beyond spending all day on the internet pissing and moaning that women are out there getting away with stuff.

    They took the Duke Rape case pretty fucking seriously.

    Ah, the MRAs' only weapon: harp on the same few isolated cases and pretend they're the norm.

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  80. Ultimately, rape culture (more so than the act of rape itself) is about putting women in their place, so if you're socially superior to the rape victim, you're pretty damn likely to get away with it.
    See, you skitter away the treatment of the accused in the Duke Lacrosse case like a cockroach from a floodlight. If you're not willing to explain it, keep the snark to yourself. Good girl.

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  81. e-string:

    You might not be a student of the history of the women's movement, so probably aren't aware that 2nd wave feminists did a lot of work to change rape from a capital crime.

    Why? Because prosecutors and juries were often unwilling to charge white men for their "boys will be boys" crimes and really fast to charge/kill black men often on slim/no evidence.

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  82. Ah, the MRAs' only weapon: harp on the same few isolated cases and pretend they're the norm.
    Oh, but it is. Did you see how the feminists rubbed themselves to the thought of rich white males being incarcerated? You expect us to bang our heads against a wall until we forget about it just because it was an "isolated case" and 95% of feminists totally did not find the accused guilty until proven innocent? You feminists brandished your true colors, and we will not let it, or a single other example of your Dworken-esque bigotry, be forgotten.

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  83. String-you bring up one incident and run with it as if it is the same case every single time.

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  84. Okay, read the news links posted here if you're not too much of a holy and elitist intelligentsia to lower yourself to the level of facts:
    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
    You don't have to read the posts, just look at the news reports and determine for yourself how those cases tend to be handled. Look at how the accused are treated during and after their accusations. Look at how the "victim" almost always gets off without even a slap on the wrist.
    If you raise your skirt and scream at the thought of reading anything incongruous with your bigotry, then you probably aren't worth the bandwidth anyway.

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  85. Hmmm...based on a quick review of the top five stories:

    1. Does not refer to an actual false claim.
    2. Does refer to an actual false claim.
    3. Does not refer to an actual false claim.
    4. Subject of this particular post and again, does nothing to show an actual false claim.
    5. Does refer to an actual false claim (with a criminal charge of false claim filed against the woman.)

    So of the five posts-only two talk about false claims and in the case of the last one, criminal charges are pending against the woman in question. So apparently your problem is that there are false claims that result in criminal charges? Is that not what you wanted?

    And on Monday, the poster actually states that anyone who is taken seriously by a police officer when reporting a rape deserves to be treated as a liar.

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  86. Maybe we should be putting women in jail until they are proven to be telling the truth about a rape.

    Will that make you happy? Of course it will but you would never admit it.

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  87. Of course it will but you would never admit it.
    Guilty until proven innocent.
    Hmmm...based on a quick review of the top five stories
    Yeah, I was assuming you'd be smart enough to skip the editorials and read the actual false rape articles. You know, more than two of them. But, as is the case with the feebleminded, you give them an inch and they take a mile.

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  88. Maybe we should be putting women in jail until they are proven to be telling the truth about a rape.
    It's okay, you can lie about me like a good little feminist. I don't respect your intelligence enough to care what your inane whims are. Don't be mistaken, though, your mouthiness can be quite useful in the proper context.

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  89. @e-string

    "We can't guarantee that the police will listen to rape victims." =/= "The police never listen to rape victims."

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  90. @Amnesia - The problem, if the false rape cases documented on the blog (which are woefully inaccessible to feminists) are correct, is that police take rape cases too seriously. Would you like to hear about a false rape case that bypassed the police and went directly into two honorary women's self-loathing hands? Or how about the horrific idea to make accused men guilty until proven innocent?
    Yeah, we need to take rape accusations more seriously, when innocent men are being sodomized and assaulted.

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  91. @e-string:

    http://www.justicefellowship.org/justice-fellowship-home

    You're welcome.

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  92. Geez, based on your attitude, I cannot imagine why I would think that you hold the view I said you do-in your secret heart of hearts of course.

    As for the editorializing-if you look at a blog about false rape reports-you reasonably expect actual posts about false rapes not about whining that women have views that are different then "all women are lying liars who should never be believed under any circumstances."

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  93. Yeah, we need to take rape accusations more seriously, when innocent men are being sodomized and assaulted.

    Statistically, there are almost certainly a few innocent men being sodomized in prison right now. But there are far more women being raped by someone close to them right now.

    But of course you only care about (and greatly exaggerate) the former because you're a sexist piece of shit.

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  94. Geez, based on your attitude, I cannot imagine why I would think that you hold the view I said you do-in your secret heart of hearts of course.
    Good feminist, you've shown how you girls think you know men better than they know themselves.
    But of course you only care about (and greatly exaggerate) the former because you're a sexist piece of shit.
    Feminists are such happy, benevolent people who are always smiling. Be a feminist, it will make your poor, chronically pissed off about vague groups such as an elusive "patriarchy", and an effeminate cross-dresser! Oh, feminism is sounding better by the second. Thank you for being a good mouthy feminist, and thank you for your testimonial! This one is a keeper!

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  95. triplanetary
    "if I were falsely accused of murder I wouldn't suddenly decide that most murder accusations are false and that suspicion should immediately be cast upon the accuser."


    Apples and oranges.
    Nobody gets convicted of murder on an accusation alone.
    Evidence is needed.

    EV - I - DENCE!!!

    Rape is the only crime with serious legal and social penalties that a man can be convicted of on a woman's word ALONE.

    (FYI That's why police put women under so much pressure when they cry rape. NOT because they are a bunch of evil oppressive patriarchs you dolts! It's to minimize the likelyhood of an innocent person being convicted because there is usually little elso to go on but her word.)

    And as far as I can tell no other crime carries such severe penalties because... um...why?

    Oh yes! Evidently for no other reason than because women don't like it very much. (Whatever the reasons it sure ain't got nothin' to do with adultery nowadays now does it?)

    An oppressive patriarchy that sends men to jail for hurting a womans feelings.
    Oh, the humanity.

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  96. Google informs me that you're full of shit*.

    Sample quote: Rape in this country is surprisingly easy to get away with. The arrest rate last year was just 25 percent - a fraction of the rate for murder - 79 percent, and aggravated assault - 51 percent.

    *Not that I needed the confirmation.

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  97. "A five month CBS News Investigation has found a staggering number of rape kits -- that could contain incriminating DNA evidence -- have never been sent to crime labs for testing."

    teacher: Anybody know why class?

    class: Oh me! No me! Me! Me! Me! Oh, I know! Me! Me!

    teacher: Yes you in he back?

    student: Because in the majority of cases the females are a bunch of liars who know perfectly well that the kits contain no incriminating DNA?

    teacher: WRONG! It's because the Illuminati knows perfectly well that each of those rape kits HAS incriminating DNA and it is acting to protect guilty men because big important dudes give that big a shit about little unimportant dudes.
    That's why most homeless folks are men because the Illuminati cares so much for them.

    And now it's time for math.
    Repeat after me class 2+2=5.

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  98. By the way I'd like apologize for not being more clear earlier.
    When I mentioned EV-I-DENCE I was refering to the fact that (in cases of penetration) claiming consent was ultimately just a matter of his word against hers.
    I didn't exactly intend for you to think "Duh, evidensh? Duh, I'll show him evidensh!" and go through all the trouble to produce a lamestream news story. But I thank you just the same.

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  99. In other words, "Your evidence disproves my worldview so I'll just dismiss it with pathetic excuses!"

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  100. In other words, "Your evidence disproves my worldview so I'll just dismiss it with pathetic excuses!"

    And what pathetic excuses?
    Logic?
    Critical thinking?
    Thinking for myself?
    Thinking period?
    Even common sense itself?

    Your a follower. Admit it. A pathetic little follower boy.

    "I'm not a rapist."
    You are not a rapist until they decide that you are!
    You can either continue to kiss up to your girlfriends asinine feminist drivel ala Stockholm syndrome or you can wake the fuck up before it's too late.

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  101. @e-string, actually, the social attitudes in regards to prison rapes fit very well with my theory. Prisoners are of low social status and are seen as having little social value. Hence rapes and sexual assaults of prisoners are treated by many as acceptable. Note how well this fits-those who engage in rape apologism wherein the victims are prisoners rarely to never argue or believe the victim actually consented, what they believe is that these rapes are acceptable. The solution to prison rape is not to take other rape accusations less seriously, but to take rape accusations with prisoners as victims more seriously. Rape apologism does not help victims who are raped while incarcerated. The fact that you tacitly condition rape of prisoners being serious on their being "innocent" disurbs me. A person being a guilty prisoner not justify allowing or encouraging people to rape them. Innocent or guilty, no prisoner deserves to be raped. No one deserves to be raped.

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  102. EWME: Man convicted on expert testimony
    One guy was executed.
    Things like the Innocence Project would not exists but for the fact that people are frequently convicted on testimony alone.

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  103. Not to be a futilist or anything, but I suspect prison rape is going to be tolerated by the people that matter as long as it is seen as a natural enforcement of manly hierarchy. That is something they believe in a lot more deeply than any moral issues involved.

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  104. Naturally, but that's why feminists want to get rid of the manly hierarchy altogether.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Well, duh. It can oppress men just as it does women, which makes it that much easier for the ones who play by the rules to advance in the hierarchy.

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  106. A couple more examples for EWME's perusal:

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Stephan_Cowans.php

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/William_Dillon.php

    In both cases these unfortunate fellows were convicted due to faulty eyewitness testimony. Rape, it seems is not the only crime you can be arrested for "on an accusation alone." You can get slammed with a count of murder if some fool who can't see well in the dark tells somebody you look kinda like a guy kinda near a crime scene.

    Now, I don't believe false accusations of rape are an "insignificant" problem. People who say they are disgust me. On the other hand, I not very fond of the general MRA meme that male-on-female rape shouldn't be taken seriously (or is "meaningless" or "shouldn't even be a crime" or whatever). I hope the above articles demonstrating false convictions of murder based on not much more than accusations (from faulty eyewitnesses and such) help you see why.

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  107. Now, I don't believe false accusations of rape are an "insignificant" problem.

    They are.

    People who say they are disgust me.

    I'm comfortable with that.

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  108. They are.
    How certain are you? In one corner of your mouth you say a significant number of rapes are not tried, and out of the other spews claims that false rape convictions are insignificant. It seems you're speaking more from dogma than deduction.

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  109. I'm comfortable with [disgusting people].
    You seem comfortable with a lot of views and prejudices the general public is not. It's troubling that you want to impose your opinions on others.

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  110. You guys. What do you want, really? Do you just want more latitude to practice Game, or do you really feel it's your birthright to brutalize the babes?

    Are you just a knot of self-justifying butthurt in a paranoic echo chamber, or do you really intend to draw swords against womankind for the sake of the man to the left and the man to the right?

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  111. It's troubling that you want to impose your opinions on others.

    Eh, I don't think so, honestly. Out of respect for our host, I won't go overboard with some ad hominem attack, but a simple glance at the "freelance writing" part of his blog is enough to tell me he doesn't and probably never will have enough influence to "impose" anything on anybody. He can't really do much besides make a nuisance of himself on other people's blogs. Just ignoring him is the best course of action, IMO.

    That said, I think my point still stands--while it's indeed a terrible injustice that people are falsely convicted of rape based on such flimsy grounds, people are also falsely convicted of murder on equally flimsy grounds. If we want to take rape less seriously because of this, we'd also have to do the same with murder.

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  112. @thevagrantsvoice - I agree with you on the murder case, actually. I would not word it as "less seriously" necessarily, but we have a consistent paranoia about shootings and strangers' mental states which often infringes on the autonomy of others. While suspicious or foreboding behavior warrants intervention, the definition has been expanded to include a broad swath of the male population. I believe this perception of men as potential murderers and rapists is one primary cause of social anxiety in teenagers and young adults. Tragically, social anxiety will in some cases serve as a catalyst for these tragedies, which increases paranoia. The cycle is self-perpetuating.
    Your post is insightful, and the fact that erroneous murder convictions exist to be overturned is very much an issue to men and those who love them.

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  113. While the bits of sympathy from those who agree that I was raped are not unappreciated, the fact is that absolutely zero harm came to me. IF, on the other hand, she had gotten pregnant and I was complaining about having to pay child support to a woman who raped me, I somehow doubt I would get one iota of sympathy from feminists. I certainly have yet to see ANY opposition from feminists to the strict liability theory of child support.

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  114. Google provides me with:
    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1027927.ece


    According to the details of that case she was convicted because she initially claimed that she never did anything sexual to the guy, and that claim was refuted by DNA evidence. So, at that point she said it was consensual but she had already damaged her own credibility beyond repair. I am 99.9% certain that had she not been ignorant of DNA and claimed from the very beginning that she performed oral sex on him with his consent, she would not have even been prosecuted. I am also 100% certain that had the genders been reversed, the man would have received a longer sentence than nine months in jail and his name would have been released.

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  115. There. How's victim blaming working out for you NOW , assholes?

    Oh Amused, when are you going to learn to actually do some research before spouting nonsense and making a fool of yourself? Here's an article on The Spearhead advising men on how to avoid becoming victims of false rape accusations. Unlike feminists, MRAs aren't so divorced from reality as to think that being reminded of their own agency constitutes "victim blaming".

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  116. Link was eaten, here it is again:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/02/18/do-you-feel-lucky-punk-aka-profiling-the-perpetrators/

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  117. Here is an article a friend posted on Facebook regarding the myth of "she is asking for it."

    Unless someone has actually claimed that some women wear short skirts because they specifically want to get raped, this is a strawman argument. For the linguistically challenged, the expression "asking for trouble" doesn't mean that a person is literally asking for trouble or going out of their way to get in trouble; it means that they are foolishly disregarding the reality of a situation and acting in a manner that is likely to bring unwanted trouble upon them.

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  118. Oh for the love of God, does this guy ever get to his actual point?

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  119. He can't really do much besides make a nuisance of himself on other people's blogs. Just ignoring him is the best course of action, IMO.

    The fact that I don't like you doesn't make me a nuisance on Manboobz. You're welcome to ignore me, but you're doing a pretty poor job of it.

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  120. I'm comfortable with [disgusting people].

    Note that this is not in fact what I said.

    You seem comfortable with a lot of views and prejudices the general public is not.

    And? That has pretty much no effect on whether I'm right or wrong. Charles Manson held a lot of views that the general public wasn't comfortable with, as did 19th century abolitionists. The general public's approval doesn't have much to do with anything.

    It's troubling that you want to impose your opinions on others.

    "Wanting to impose one's opinions on others" is called politics. Yes, I want my opinions to be reflected in policy. However it's my position that my opinions are less restrictive on personal freedom and self-determination than existing policy or the policy proposals of MRAs, especially when it comes to gender rights.

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  121. However it's my position that my opinions are less restrictive on personal freedom and self-determination than existing policy or the policy proposals of MRAs, especially when it comes to gender rights.
    Do you think a man should be able to abort his financial responsibility during the same period of time that a woman can abort their future child? Do you think that we need strong-armed legislation and bribery (tax deductions, etc.) to force businesses to hire more women? Do you believe universities should be forced to finance women-only sports teams, regardless of the economic viability of such organizations?

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  122. e491, thank you for your response--the fact that you can acknowledge the same reasoning in regards to murder as to rape speaks well to your honesty. I still think it's problematic even from an MRA standpoint, however. Remember, as many MRAs point out, violence is a male issue--most victims of it are male. Most men are better off being suspicious of other men, because statistically, they're more likely to be killed by another man than a woman is. Thus, by taking murder "less seriously" (forgive the wording, it's the best I could think of at the moment), while you may be improving things for men accused of violence, you may be making things less safe for the victims of violence, who are primarily men.

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  123. "Do you think a man should be able to abort his financial responsibility during the same period of time that a woman can abort their future child?" Men actually have no financial responsibility during that period. They do not have to pay the medical bills (the cost of delivery in a hospital in the US, without complications, is 9-17 thousand), food bills, lost wages, etc. of pregnant women. So, when you are calling for men to pay half of pregnancy expenses, get back to me on this one and we can discuss physical burdens taken by the pregnant person as well. Also, take note of the fact that bio mothers do not have more rights than bio fathers during pregnancy. Surrogacy cases demonstrate this well. It is the surrogate, not the bio mom, who can choose to abort, even when it is absolutely certain the bio mom will be the custodial mom after birth. The pregnant person is the one with the right to abort, it is pregnancy status and not being the egg provider that gives one that right. We know you are devastated over not having a womb, but that is no excuse to try and control pregnant women.

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  124. A woman can give birth to the child, at which point it is outside of her body and so no biological distinction can be made between the nature of her parenthood and that of the father, and then get rid of it under safe haven laws, thus abdicating all parental responsibility. Men don't have this option. That's a massive inequality and there is no way to argue around it. Not only that, but any attempt to argue around it is going to stink of misandry.

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  125. @Cold, nothing you just said relates to your abortion position. You are now discussing custody after birth, which is a different subject. Stay on topic here.

    On safe have laws: These laws do not exempt the person from child support should the other parent take custody (or financial payments to the state during state custody http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/children_family_services/SafeHaven/GovernorColumn.pdf). They are also gender neutral, men may drop infants off at safe havens and be exempted from abandonment charges/relinquish custody just like women. These safe haven law are also rarely used. Lousianna, one of the poorest states in the country, reports only 12 cases in a 6 year period (http://www.dss.louisiana.gov/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&articleID=278). So hardly a "massive" issue by reasonable useage of that word.

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  126. I don't have an abortion position other than that in whatever window women are allowed to abort, men should be allowed to abort their paternity.

    Safe haven laws may be written gender neutral, but if the father took the baby from the hospital against the mother's will and dropped it off at one to avoid paternal responsibility he would face criminal charges.

    The fact remains that women, and only women, have a set of legal options available so that an unwanted pregnancy never has to result in unwanted parental responsibility, even if you rule out abortion entirely. As I warned you before, any attempt to argue around this obvious fact is going to stink of misandry.

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  127. @Cold "if the father took the baby from the hospital against the mother's will and dropped it off at one to avoid paternal responsibility he would face criminal charges." If he is being charged, it would be with kidnapping for taking the child when he was not permitted to do so. Women are not exempt from kidnapping charges either simply because they use safe haven laws either. He can never be charged for abandonment for doing this if he follows the safe haven laws that would also exempt a woman from abandonment charges.

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  128. P.S. Cold, this is what I was referring to as your abortion position " in whatever window women are allowed to abort, men should be allowed to abort their paternity." And you still have not justified it, you have merely changed the subject to discussions about after birth rights.

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  129. The justification comes in the form of a basic appeal to the concept of legal equality. If you want to hold the position that only women should have the legal options to never become responsible for a child as a result of an unwanted pregnancy unless they explicitly choose to take it, then you can do so but that makes you a female supremacist by definition. Perhaps you are ok with that label.

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  130. Name calling does not an argument make cold. Demonstrate "legal inequality" exists here, please. Shit, at least try to make an argument to that effect.

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  131. As I said, if you take the position I described then you are, by definition, a female supremacist. That's not name-calling; it's a statement of fact.

    If you can't see the legal inequality after having it explained over and over again as I have done then you're never going to see it, either because you can't bring yourself to admit that it exists or because you lack the logical processing capabilities to understand it. Again, that's not name calling, just stating the facts.

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