Friday, October 22, 2010

My first post in the Domestic Violence debate is up. And so is, well, see for yourself....

From A Voice for Men
My first post in my debate with MRA Paul Elam on Domestic Violence has gone up on his web site. See it HERE.

Elam, meanwhile, has made clear how seriously he takes the idea of ending domestic violence against woman and men by posting this elsewhere on his site:
In the name of equality and fairness, I am proclaiming October to be Bash a Violent Bitch Month.
I’d like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women - to beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.
And then make them clean up the mess.

Illustrating the post: a couple of pictures of women with black eyes, including the one I screencapped and pasted here. That of course is his caption, not mine. 

This little violent fantasy of his is ostensibly inspired by an obnoxious three-year-old post from Jezebel which basically celebrated the fact that various female staffers had beaten up boyfriends of theirs. Elam's fantasy, of course, goes well beyond anything any of them confessed to.

34 comments:

  1. You have to admit, though, that Jezebel post is pretty fucking obnoxious. Look at some of these comments:

    Used my set of keys to get into his appartment. Confronted him. Slapped his glasses off his face. Bite him repeated so hard that he imediately bruised. Got out a kitchen knife.

    A kitchen knife? Stabbing somebody's at least as bad as smashing their face against a wall like Elam recommends. I don't agree with his post either, but I'm not sure it "goes well beyond anything any of them confessed to."

    That said, I read your response to his OP too, left a comment over there. Are we allowed to post comments in here, or would you/Mr. Elam prefer us to stay out of it in here as well?

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  2. While I think his wording is aweful strong and inappropriate, I do think you glossed over the fact that he directed his call to action to men who were being physically abused by a partner. We don't generally criticize abused women who lash out at their abuser, in fact we generally commend it. That said anyone being abused should really contact the authorities instead of taking matters into their own hands so to speak.

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  3. Yeah, the Jezebel post is pretty bad. I didn't realize they had more than one page of comments so I missed that one about the knife.

    I'd say post your comments on my response to Elam over there; while the debate's on, I'm going to confine my comments on the topic to my "official" response to Elam. I guess I'll probably respond to comments there in my "official" responses too.

    But discussion of this other Elam piece, fair game.

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  4. Well, for whatever value his website may have, Paul Elam is obviously insane.

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  5. You missed a relevant quote from the article:

    "Now, am I serious about this?

    No."

    But who needs reading comprehension, right?

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  6. I just read your rebuttle to Paul Elam. Your argument is useless. Why? You cite Kimmel, Nomas, xyonline and finallyfeminism101. All advocacy research by advocacy researchers producing hate speech against men. If your argument had any merit, you could find legitimate sources. But, you rely on the male feminist circle jerk of half-men "academics."

    But, it does elucidate where your philosphy is foundationed. Yuck.

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  7. Magdelyn, he did find legitimate sources. The National Institute of Justice, John Archer, Saunders, and several others who don't seem to have as much of a chip on their shoulders as 'actual' feminist sites like Nomas, xyonline and finally feminism. Those guys seem like legitimate researchers, not just advocates.

    That said, Mr. Futrelle, I think some of the folks in the comment section raise good points, namely about the difficulty of actually setting up a men's shelter. Will you address those in your next response?

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  8. I consider this links below are legitimate sources regarding domestic violence.

    http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full

    Men Shouldn't Be Overlooked as Victims of Partner Violence by the American Psychiatric Association

    Just one sentence out of this research:

    Women often the aggressors:
    Regarding perpetration of violence, more women than men (25 percent versus 11 percent) were responsible. In fact, 71 percent of the instigators in nonreciprocal partner violence were women. This finding surprised Whitaker and his colleagues, they admitted in their study report.

    -----

    You might also refer to

    http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941

    American Public Health Association

    This link will explain to you in detail how this reseach above was done and I copy/paste one sentence out of its result.

    .....in relationships with reciprocal violence it was the men who were injured more often (25 percent of the time) than were women (20 percent of the time). This is important as violence perpetrated by women is often seen as not serious....

    -----

    MRAs never deny that violent men exist.

    But there are also PLENTY of violent women.

    To claim all men are violent and all women are poor helpless victims is a baseless feminist lie.

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  9. @wanderer, yes, the jezebel post is obnoxious and violent, but did you read all of the comments? For every comment suggesting violence were okay, there were two discussed self defense against an abuser, stalker, harasser, or rapist (slapping a stalker camped out in front of your house with a history of abusing you is self defense, even if he has not slapped you first this time). Also, I wonder if people raised as men understand the level of legitimate physical threat that women feel when faced with a drunken or high partner who goes on a verbal and emotionally abusive tirade. Shoving or slapping your boyfriend who shows up high on crack and verbally abuses you may not seem like self defense, until you see how many of these high and drunk verbal abusers start beating the fuck out of their victims immediately after these tirades. One commenter did point out how, before she attacker her boyfriend, she felt genuinely threated with rape. There is a subtext here in the 'he was high and started screaming at me' situation that people who have never seen the bloody aftermath of many of these situations when the person does not try to make them stop and remove them may not be picking up. In many situations, this behavior is a prelude to a rape or beating, so the level of physical threat implied is different than, say, an being curse at by a stranger in a bar. Are there discussions of outright unprovoked violence in that thread? Yes (most of these are the ones about violence in response to cheating). Do the cases of 'drunken/high on crack and verbally abusing/refusing to leave/spitting in face' fall under this category? No, they don't.
    Context matters and most women in these situations feel that if they do not act, they will soon be the victim of a rape of assault.

    Also, Elam's comment (even taken with Durden's qualification) shows a complete failure to understand the basics. His comment about "smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back " is directly contradicted by his statment of "for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women". Trust me, men who beat up their partners certainly fight back when the partner tries to beat them right back. It is not as if a long term abuser suddenly becomes unwilling to hit if the victim initiates. Abuser and victim who doesn't fight back are mutually exclusive categories (at least in relation to the same person, you could have someone who was beaten without fighting back who was the abuser of a third party). In addition this "And then make them clean up the mess" is a clearly gendered comment. Expecting your abuse victim to do cleaning chores afterwards? This is something that happens often in cases with a male abuser and almost never in cases with a female abuser.

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  10. Forget the knife, there's one comment on there who claimed she threw her boyfriend around by his penis and whipped him with a belt.

    Also, it appears they've deleted the one guy who attempted to call them on their shit, as some of them are rplies to a "KurticusMaximus" saying he should "quit spoiling their fun and raining on their parade" No such comment appears though.

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  11. @magdelyn. It appears you didn't actually read the piece, just glanced at the sources. The info quoted from feminism101, for example, was actually a quote from one of the leading researchers in the field, and someone Elam himself quoted.

    I'm going to stay out of the comments from now on, as that's sort of what Elam and I agreed to, but in any case there's not much point in arguing the merits of my piece with someone who obviously did not read it.

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  12. Anon, his comment is actually there. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click "earlier discussions" and it should show up. You may have to do that a couple of times though, a lot of them are far back.

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  13. Unspammed a few comments caught by the spam filter.

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  14. "His comment about "smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back " is directly contradicted by his statment of "for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women". Trust me, men who beat up their partners certainly fight back when the partner tries to beat them right back."

    Seems like the regulars of this site all need to have their reading comprehension checked. Here, Elam was talking about the smugness of female domestic violence instigators who abuse their male partners because they know the males won't retaliate - MOST men are still raised with the notion that it is NEVER okay to strike a woman, and Elam is expressing his disgust for women who abuse that.

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  15. @DF

    I read your piece. You don't deny that you cite the literature I previously mentioned. You cited and relied on the advocacy research I indentified.

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  16. That post seemed to be a tongue in cheek reversal of the jezebel feminist's attitude. The main difference being that Pauls piece was satire and the pro domestic violence women on jezebel, who out of the other side of their faces would likely swear up and down that women dont commit DV, were commenting without irony or shame, in fact they were celebrating it.

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  17. About the debate...
    http://deansdale.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/the-big-debate/

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  18. Jezebel's a great feminist site, if feminism means celebrity gossip and fashion show pictorials and discussion of how empowering it is to be sexually assaulted by Don Draper.

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  19. "obnoxious"?? That's the only word you can think to describe that piece of shit article? "Obnoxious"

    You have a bunch of women cackling about how funny it is to beat the shit out of their "boyfriends" (and threaten them with knives, whip them with belts, through objects at their heads) And the only term that comes into your brain is "obnoxious"? Your Mistresses really do have you trained well, don't they?

    How about "sick"? or "psychotic"? or hey, "hypocritical"?

    This right here illustrates everything thats fucking wrong with the feminist movement. One minute it's "Independent Women! We don't need men! We can do anything you can do!" But as soon as shit hits the fan it's "Don't blame me! I'm just a girl, I don't know any better! Teehee!"
    Well, Fuck That. That's not how the world fucking works, ladies. Either you are adults who know how to control your emotions and respond rationally, or you aren't. You don't get it both ways.

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  20. Excerpt from the article:
    "Now, am I serious about this?

    No."

    It goes on to state: "Not because it’s wrong. It’s not wrong. Every one should have the right to defend themselves. Hell, women are often excused from killing someone whom they allege has abused them."

    But then again, I guess the most damning evidence of your lack of integrity (or stupidity - take your pick) would be his statement right above the picture you screencapped, and even copied to your self-aggrandizing blog:

    "In the name of equality and fairness, I am proclaiming October to be Bash a Violent Bitch Month."

    Let me just clarify for that, if you missed the point. It's about giving bullies who think that it's alright to physically assault men what they've had coming for a long time.

    Let me break this down to your level: If I hit you, then I pull my fist back to hit you again, you should have a right to give me a fat lip before I have the chance.

    You're a liar, and your lack of integrity and reliance on misinformation (or just general ineptitude) only serves to illustrate the despicable nature of feminism.

    But then, this is what feminists do. They're simpleminded little wretches who will forward their beliefs by any means necessary. You might think you know one, even think a feminist is your friend, but remember - when it's you or their irrational beliefs, they'll throw you under the bus in a second.

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  21. evilwhitemalempireOctober 24, 2010 at 4:10 AM

    "This little violent fantasy of his is ostensibly inspired by an obnoxious THREE-YEAR-OLD post from Jezebel which basically celebrated the fact that various female staffers had beaten up boyfriends of theirs."

    Now if this post had been less than a year old then Paul might have a point. But Paul just doesn't understand that Jezebel has grown up so much since 2007.
    David has cleverly pointed this fact out.

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  22. evilwhitemalemire.

    Manboobz, tried to misrepresent Elams piece as a genuine call to beat up women when clearly it wasn't. I dont see that as particularly clever, but I do see it as typical of the debating style of feminists.
    And the fact that jezebel published its pro domestic violence in 07 rather than 09 or 10 doesnt seem to be relevant here at all.

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  23. "Jezebel has grown up so much since 2007"
    ...meaning they probably won't admit commiting DV nowadays, but it doesn't change the fact that they *have* committed it.
    Women as a group didn't change that much in the last 3 years. They are as violent as ever.

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  24. I never realized Jezebel represented all women as a group! Huh.

    Jezebel is a gossip site. It's a snarky one, that attempts to contravene some societal conventions. Nevertheless, it is a gossip site. It does not represent feminism; it is not the voice of feminism. In fact, most of the feminists I know will turn to it occasionally for a news source, but stay away from it because of its tendencies towards racism, fat-shaming, etc.

    That having been said, the Jezebel article and the article excerpted here are both disgusting.

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  25. Aydan -

    It's too bad Jezebel isn't the voice of feminism, because the true voice of feminism (the women responsible for guiding the direction of the movement) are a whole lot worse.

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  26. Aydan, if you take a stand against sites that enguage in fat shaming why are you posting on one that clearly mocks men with weight and/or hormone problems?

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  27. @ J. Durden-- Yeah, I've seen that list before. You might check out this, though I'm not fond of the language in the title of the post.

    @ Eoghan-- Why are you?

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  28. As if XY online wasn't enough of a joke already, they actually published something from Julian Real, the MikeeUSA of anti-men's rights activists? LOL

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  29. Actualy I take that back; Julian Real is more like the Bob Allen of AMRAs. I want to save the term "MikeeUSA of anti-men's rights activists" for someone who isn't just off the wall, but off the planet.

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  30. "I never realized Jezebel represented all women as a group! Huh."
    Your arrogance doesn't change the fact that women as a group didn't change that much in the last 3 years. Or are you saying they did?
    If you look at my words carefully you can see that I didn't suggest jezebel represented all women.

    "It does not represent feminism; it is not the voice of feminism."
    And this doesn't change the fact that most of them are feminists - but this doesn't matter all that much because the important fact is that they were *women* talking about their own violence.

    "Yeah, I've seen that list before. You might check out this"
    I was literally unable to read more than a few sentences of that f*ckin' mess full of seething hatred.

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  31. So out of curiosity, Mr. Futrelle, now that all the stuff about 'two-part' responses seemed to have been ironed out, I actually have another question. Since both you and Mr. Elam agreed not to enter the comments section over there, will you be addressing the commentary of me and/or any other folks within your response, or did both of you agree to keep your responses referring only to each other?

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  32. XYonline? Are you serious? You actually want to link to that seething mass of hatred? I mean, hell, if I wanted to feel guilty just for having a penis, I'd go back to church.

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  33. "And the fact that jezebel published its pro domestic violence in 07 rather than 09 or 10 doesnt seem to be relevant here at all."

    ""Jezebel has grown up so much since 2007"
    ...meaning they probably won't admit commiting DV nowadays, but it doesn't change the fact that they *have* committed it."

    Jeeeeeeeezus H. frickin' Christ on the cross dudes!

    I was being S-A-R-C-A-S-T-I-C.

    Of course the date of the Jezebel post is irrelevant!
    Mr. Futrelle, with his keen eye for detail, noticed that the post was a few years old and with his stupendous reasoning powers concluded that the fact WAS somehow relevant. (OR he wouldn't have mentioned it right?)

    The comment was just a smart-assed way to say that David's an idiot. (As is just about any desperate guy who earnestly thinks that sucking up to feminism is the royal road to pussy land.)

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  34. @evilwhitemaleempire...

    And of course - magdylyne gives me a link to a study that is 21 years old regarding the hardships faces by gay teenagers - and it is completely pertinent!

    What a Hoot!

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